  [1m​[0m
  [1mBiden wins White House, vowing new direction for divided U.S.[0m

 ╭──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────╮
 │ [34mhttps://apnews.com/article/joe-biden-wins-white-house-ap-fd58df73aa677acb74fce2a69adb71f9[0m                    │
 │                                                                                                              │
 │ by [31mgranzymes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m                                                                        ID [2;32m25015967[0m │
 │ [35m2170[0m comments                                                                                    [33m3089[0m points │
 │                                                                                                              │
 │ How are people running their detection pipelines on video and overlaying the results? Is every project       │
 │ writing its own scaffolding for this? Is it mostly 'run command, generate new video'? Or is there a GUI /    │
 │ toolkit that's standard?                                                                                     │
 ╰──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────╯
​
  [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAll: before reading further, make sure you're up on the site guidelines and don't post political or
  [0mideological flames to this thread. If you're hot under the collar, please cool down and wait for your
  [0mcuriosity to come back before commenting (and maybe even reading) further. This is a good test case to see if
  [0mHN can stick to its intended spirit: [34mnews.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html[0m
  [0m
  [0mEdit: There are now multiple pages of comments in this thread. If you want to see the later pages, click
  [0m'More' at the bottom of the earlier pages. Or get there like this:
  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25015967&p=2[0m
  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25015967&p=3[0m
  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25015967&p=4[0m
  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25015967&p=5[0m
  [0m
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  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25015967&p=8[0m
  [0m
  [0m---
  [0m
  [0mAs many have pointed out, a dozen or so submissions on this topic were flagged by users. That's actually the
  [0mimmune system working as intended, but another component of the system is that moderators rescue the very most
  [0mhistoric stories so HN can have a single big thread about them. We did that 4 years ago, also for Brexit,
  [0metc.
  [0m
  [0mSince this was the first submission on the topic, it seems fairest to be the one to restore. (It's still on
  [0mour todo list to have some form of karma sharing for situations like this, to make it be less of a race and/or
  [0mlottery.)
  [0m
  [0mI changed the URL from [34mwww.cnn.com/[0m since that is not the most useful link and the AP seems as close as one
  [0mcan get to a neutral source.
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​
  [1mdorkwood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m¼ There's a famous optical illusion ½ with a spinning silhouette of a dancer. When you ¾, look at it, you'll
  [0mswear it's spinning in one direction — say, counter-clockwise. In fact, you'll be so sure it's spinning
  [0mcounter-clockwise, that the idea it could be spinning in the opposite direction will seem impossible to you.
  [0mBut if you stare at it long enough, and intently enough, you can make it spin the other way.
  [0m
  [0mI've noticed the same phenomenon with political views.
  [0m
  [0mPeople on the left think that anyone on the right is a lunatic, and everyone on the right thinks the same
  [0mthing about the left. I, as most people do, lean in one direction politically, so naturally any comment I see
  [0mcoming from my side seems reasonable to me. In fact, it seems impossible that a reasonable person could think
  [0many other way. But since I grew up in a family that leaned in the opposite direction, and I shared their same
  [0mmindset in my younger days, I can now draw on that experience, and I can take a political tweet that everyone
  [0mon my side thinks is insane, and I can stare at it, and just as with the spinning dancer, I can flip it in my
  [0mhead so it seems reasonable.
  [0m
  [0mTo me, it's a testament to the power of the tribal instincts within us. We think it's the other side that's
  [0mcrazy, but we're all under the same spell. ⅙

                                                  [1m▶ 101 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 101 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpqhwan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGrowing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing political⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbent as a teenager. Then I came to the US, where I found myself in the minority and leaning left. So I feel⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat I have some personal insight into the mindset that pushes people right. But… maybe it’s that my past⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I reflect on what drove me that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mway, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing of today in the US.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI guess I empathize with their fear and anger better because of my experience, but I don’t buy that their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0marguments are just a “different” way of looking at the world; a narrower, myopic way, maybe.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mneither_color[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a minority considered “disadvantaged” in the US I’d like to counter that there’s a lot more to the right⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthan lack of empathy for minorities or fear. I’m very appreciative of the opportunities provided to me here⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand don’t appreciate the recent cultural tendency to privilege shame people or to look back on the history⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhere as only cruel or exploitative.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump saw the highest turnout among minorities for republicans in 60 years and it’s for a reason. I look⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mback at Ben Franklin or Jefferson or Washington and feel inspired, I don’t think “oh, I’m not privileged I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcould never do what he did.” I can see people as products of their time and separate the good from the bad.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs someone who grew up in an apartment shared between 2 families and worked my way up into college and the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtech field I’m just shocked at how many people today have grown into learned helplessness and think that the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msystem is so bad and irreparable that they need to vandalize and protest in cities for months.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe left has done so much more to insult me and my appreciation for this country than the right, and it’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjust tragic that they think they’re the only good guys. I really do believe that foreign interference to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0magitate our society is real, as discussed by Tristan Harris in his interview by Joe Rogan, and it’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconvinced millions of young Americans that they’re somehow resisting literal Nazis.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhackyhacky[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's great that you feel empowered and have been successful in this country. Lots of minorities haven't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeen, and for reasons outside of their control, based in historical inequalities.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe fundamental problem of the entitled right is that they can't imagine that other people have had⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifferent experiences than they have, and therefore attribute their disadvantaged state to "victim⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmentality."⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpmachinery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI’m just shocked at how many people today have grown into learned helplessness and think that the system[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mis so bad and irreparable that they need to vandalize and protest in cities for months.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's quite right to be shocked [3mso many[0m people protested, because it's a strong signal that there's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msomething drastically wrong with the system; something that nobody has any problem understanding and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maccepting when protests occur in other countries.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcauthon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mliteral Nazis[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs it all the swastikas? Maybe it’s all the swastikas.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s disingenuous to suggest that far-right extremists aren’t dominating the messaging from the right, and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat Donald Trump isn’t amplifying them.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJPKab[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think you speak as if you don't currently have a bias. yet something I've noticed and even had to correct⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mamongst coworkers who came to the United States via a student visa and then eventually obtained a green card⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis that they have a huge bias towards large parts of the United States. This bias has been created in their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mminds by university professors who have never been to these parts of the country themselves. The bias⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmanifest in things like a coworker being afraid to accompany me on a business trip to Walmart headquarters⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min Northwest Arkansas thinking it was dangerously racist. I had to explain to him that there are multiple⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcricket leagues in the area in that racism is not nearly as prevalent in the south as Hollywood would have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhim believe. He ended up enjoying it so much there that he later relocated there from Fremont. Living near⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBoulder I routinely encounter the exact same ideological brainwashing amongst people who came to the US as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstudents. I say this is someone that is done extensive volunteer consulting work for the Democratic party⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mincluding my last gig in 2014 for the midterm elections. I agree with the vast majority of the Democratic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparty platform but have become very dismayed at them overemphasizing race as a motivating factor for their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposition. I can promise you that for most southern Americans that vote Republican abortion is a much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbigger factor in their vote than race. and economics is much bigger than either those categories.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhighmastdon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs a foreigner not living in the US of A, I feel that your last paragraph outlines it perfectly. Also, a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlot of the outspoken left wing is about groups and not about individuals. To mind comes: institutional⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mracism, gender equality, white privilege, mandatory healthcare/insurance, high taxes on the rich, minimum⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwage⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtacitusarc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of entitlement and an unwillingness[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mto put myself in the other’s shoes.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right. In fact, this is a personal failing. It⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mshould be simple enough to recognize that for any ideology that is large enough there almost certainly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexists coherent and constructive thoughts within it. If you have yet to discover them, this is not because⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey do not exist, it is because you're not actually looking for them. I think this is done by people on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mboth the left and the right all the time. They fail to deeply investigate the ideas of the other side, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthen criticize the other side for having no good ideas.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpqhwan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou point this out as if it is some moral failing on the right.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s not a comment on conservative politics as a whole, it’s a reflection on my own past immaturity, and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhow I recognize it in others when I see it. And I’ve had 4 years to observe Trump’s tweets, Breitbart,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malt-right, Qanon, Proud Boys, so if you want to convince me that there’s constructive, long-term thinking⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbehind any of that, you’ll have to be a little more specific than “look harder”.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mSubiculumCode[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcase in point are the left and right's rhetoric on abortion, which each intentionally bypass the other⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mside's argument. i.e. pro-life rhetoric does not acknowledge that women are inherently stakeholders, while⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpro-choice: woman's right to choose doesn't address whether the fetus has rights (or choice). It is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifficult to make progress when rhetoric pretends that the other side does not have reasoned arguments, but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis instead based on toxic masculinity/sexism/paternalism while the other side pretends that those who get⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mabortions are just loose immoral women.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI see no end of this, and that is why I choose to think about actually constructive policies: e.g. free,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprevalent, effective birth control for both men and women.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgreggman3[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFunny but the stereotype is the opposite from the 60s. As the saying goes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf You Are Not a Liberal at 25, You Have No Heart. If You Are Not a Conservative at 35 You Have No Brain⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mquoteinvestigator.com/2014/02/24/heart-head/[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNote: I'm not conservative and I don't necessarily agree with the quote. The point is not that the quote is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcorrect, the point is someone (not me) thought it was the unthinking young person that thought alone liberal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlines and the experienced wise person that thought along conservative lines.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAgain, not agreeing, just pointing out some feel the opposite, that more experience and exposure to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mworld leads to more conservative thinking for some people.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mEliRivers[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI believe there is some evidence to suggest that there was a mistaken correlation between getting older and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgetting more invested in the world as it is (i.e. getting richer).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGiven that the age at which people tend to switch is increasing, I wonder if there may be something to it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfastball[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think "I didn't have a good reason for being conservative, therefore conservatives in general don't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave good reasons" is a very strong argument…⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhigerordermap[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGrowing up in a country where I was in the ethnic majority, I went through a period of right-wing[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpolitical bent as a teenager.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it's inevitable when majority of people that surround you have conservative views. Don't feel bad⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabout that.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mfastball[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mdon't feel bad that you were a conservative at some point we all make mistakes[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy god, the sense of moral superiority.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlumberingjack[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's really strange because I agree with exactly everything that you said except swap Democrat for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRepublican I was a Democrat when I was young didn't care about anybody else now I'm a Republican and I have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmorals⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjariel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m" maybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mentitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes. And that’s what I see in the right-wing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof today in the US. "⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt seems you had a bad experience with what you [3mfelt[0m were 'right wing' ideals but probably had little to do⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith that, as it would be a pretty intellectually shallow description of any kind of Conservatism (although⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderstandable if one were to equate 'Trump' with 'Conservative' and I don't think many people would in the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mintellectual sense) and also oddly experientially 'upside down'.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost 'young people' are progressive, people tend to get more conservative as they get older.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCynically, one could say it's due to age and myopia, but more likely it has to do with responsibility,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mperspective, maturity and frankly living through decades and seeing how the world adapts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBelieving in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mintegral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnotion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBarack Obama, for example, is a 'Progressive Conservative', and he is in many ways in his own personal life⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma model 'cultural conservative': religious, church going, mild mannered, straight forward marriage,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtraditional formal education. He speaks formally and graciously, and is literally a living embodiment of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmany cultural historical artefacts. He didn't serve in the military but he very well could have, it's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtotally within his character.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe's not at all that far away from Mitt Romney for example.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDonald Trump is not a 'Conservative' or even 'right wing' really, he's just a jerk who found a 'following'⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min appealing to the worst qualities of 'bad right wing tropes'.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"In 1999, Trump described himself as "very pro-choice" and said "I believe in choice." (Wikipedia)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDonald Trump was a tough-guy New York 'kind of Democrat' most of his life. He always supported gay marriage.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Clintons were [3mliterally at his wedding[0m to Melania.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe's a serial scammer, effectively a polygamist who marries woman purely on the basis of their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mattractiveness and then dumps them later, cavorts with prostitutes, lies, cheats, steals.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe changes his political views to suit the day, because they don't matter to him - he's just about being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrich and popular.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe's managed to convince a lot of people that he is something that he is not, and that's sad, and it's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbrought out the worst in so many people, and that's what we are seeing today.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHave a look at this Charlie Rose interview with Senator Jeff Flake who's a much more traditional⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconservative, and FYI detests Donald Trump and 'fell on his sword' rather than go along with the toxicity.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m]⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mcharlierose.com/videos/30822[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjeremyjh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI guess what a lot of us are struggling with is how anyone cannot see these truths for themselves in Trump.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't need to listen to anyone but Trump himself to realize he lies constantly and has only a rudimentary⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgrasp of how government and society functions. His history in popular culture speaks for itself. So what⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis going on with the 70 million people who can't see that plainly? The only conclusion we can reach is "he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msays the quiet part out loud" and that resonates with a lot of people. "They are sending us murders and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrapists" was an early example that has stuck with me. Perhaps it is not a charitable view but nearly every⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0moffice holding member of the GOP lined up to lick his boots after he said thousands of things like that.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs near as I can tell, Conservatism is deader than disco.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mamf12[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBelieving in the institutions of family (and monogamy as a commitment to that institution), the objective[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mrule of law, moral obligation through duty of various kinds of community service, prudence, faith as an[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mintegral part of worldview, a sense of community that can possibly be expressed through nationalism, the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mnotion that people must act responsibly to the extent they are able and assume responsibility for their[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mactions - these are not ideals of 'entitlement' frankly.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI kind of agree with you. However - maybe I am wrong - but you seem to equate these values with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"conservatism" and believe other people think these are ideals of "entitlement". I don't think⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnon-conservatives, myself included think that way or don't believe in these values. But feel free to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcorrect me if I misunderstood you.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjonsno56[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExcellent analysis (not sarcasm; I enjoyed reading this)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmillbraebart[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI was a lefty my whole life, but this BLM/covid lockdown crap was the end for me. I hardly see how 14⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munarmed black men (most of not all instigating/resisting) killed by police in the entire US in 2019⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrepresents the biggest problem for black people. My mom works in the public school system and wholly agrees.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe last thing black families need is "defunding" the police. And all these lockdowns over a virus with a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m99%+ survival rate? It's not just "fear and anger" for us, in the word's of the left… facts matter.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlawnchair_larry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would say you’re definitely misunderstanding the right in the US. It has nothing to do with that here. It’⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ms largely the left showing fear and anger, although many seem oblivious to it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhackyhacky[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mmaybe it’s that my past right-leaning self was a teenager with half-baked ideas about the world, when I[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mreflect on what drove me that way, I cannot point to any coherent, constructive thought, mostly feelings[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mof entitlement and an unwillingness to put myself in the other’s shoes.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThank you for saying this. It's hard to admit an error.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnamuol[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe difference is that with the spinning dancer optical illusion, there's never a "wrong" way to view it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis isn't always the case with politics, or any kind of view for that matter. It's important to empathize⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith people you disagree with, but it's just as important that we start with a foundation of agreed upon⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfacts.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn other words, reality isn't a point of view.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprobably_wrong[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mit's just as important that we start with a foundation of agreed upon facts. In other words, reality isn't[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3ma point of view.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think these two things are as strongly related as you suggest. Two reasonable people can look at the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msame problem with the same facts, make reasonable guesses on what the best course is, and yet reach two⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompletely different, [3mreasonable[0m approaches to the problem. Otherwise, we would have already decided which⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprogramming language is the best one.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSome situations are more clear cut than others, and I agree that we need to separate facts from opinion⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter. But for situations as complex as the present and future of a country there might very well not be a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"right" way.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"Reality" is not a point of view, but we only experience it through the lens of our personal experiences. No⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mone experiences "true" reality.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mroenxi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mApologies in advance if this sounds snappy, this hits an issue I feel strongly about.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy local supermarket has precisely no empathy for me and the only thing I expect to agree on with the local⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstore manager is price. Yet it is by far the most effective conduit for getting me cheap food. Effective⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msystems simply are not very good at empathy and agreement on non-core issues is unimportant. Empathy in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparticular recommended at a personal level but not especially useful in politics. The critical tool is the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mability to comprehend, negotiate, compromise and articulate why things are necessary.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHaving "empathy" for "the left"/"the right" isn't possible. The groups are too large and diverse. Ditto for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmajor components of the left or right like "the black vote", "the evangelicals", "people in cities", "people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrom Detroit", "the wealthy", etc, etc. Entities that you can have empathy for or agree on facts with are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtoo small to be politically important like individuals or families. Politics is done by large groups who's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeliefs are too nebulous to align.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpeterwoerner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHave you ever dug into Bayesian reasoning? See E.T. Jayne's probability theory chapter 5 for an explanation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon this.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe more facts we get, the more likely our views diverge and become more strongly held.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnamuol[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYeah, I don't disagree. The more facts we have to choose from, the more susceptible to bias, because we⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill have a wider variety to cherry-pick from.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut for those who are genuinely interested in the truth and vigorously fighting biases, more facts can only⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhelp construct a "more complete" truth.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfastball[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAn ironic stance, given that it is the left in the US that are pushing ideas like Critical Theory, which is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbased on post-modernism, which in turn maintains that reality ("knowledge claims") is effectively a point of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mview ("socially conditioned").⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVarious factions within the US left have been trying to convince everyone [3mfor decades[0m that subjective truth⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis more important than objective facts; that "lived experience" is what really matters.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThen those same people pull a surprised Pikachu face when Orange Man comes swinging out of right field with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe same argument, just in the opposite direction with "fake news" etc.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdimgl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI completely disagree. I think reality IS a point of view. You are suggesting that there is only one way to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthink about reality. And that is complete lunacy.⁣
  ⁣
     [1myosho[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs a fetus considered a human baby? This is one of those 2 sided debates that regularly occurs and the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mproblem is that no amount of science will be able to give a definitive answer. It's a personal worldview⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand both sides have valid arguments.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mleptons[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"Alternative facts" are not facts, they are lies people tell themselves to justify a point of view. It's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot truth, it's not sanity. Someone can't just substitute a lie for the truth because it feels better. I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmean, they can, but they aren't living in reality - and that's actually complete lunacy.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmantas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWasn't that OP's key point? Vast majority (if not all) political messages are both true and false, depending⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon context and personal bias.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mehnto[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere is an alternative to such polarized views. In many countries, politics is just politics, it happens in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe background and is about as heart felt as the weather report.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt can be controversial and felt by all sure, but it shouldn't be a lifestyle or ideological platform that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe general public use to divide themselves.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's backoffice stuff, for the most part, and I am too busy being friends to really mind what someone's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical views are, if they even think about it much at all themselves.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNow more than ever the US needs democracy, and the government needs to work harder than ever on protecting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut I argue that the people of America, the general public, need to give it a bloody rest with the politics.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBe humans again and meet your neighbors as you are, part of the same cohort as citizens. Your vote is just as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpowerful, no matter how many flags, banners, or yard signs you have. Your vote is what decides the direction⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof your country, not the chest thumping and rallies and flag brigades.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah, sorry, but my access to healthcare isn't something as heart felt as the weather report. I either live⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mor die without it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mehnto[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRight, but my comment isn't about current-day America, more a possible future where your access to care⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdoesn't rest on an election, because not everything is hyper-politicized and some decisions get made for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhat is the best decision for most not what matches the ideology.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe hyper-polarization of the political landscape means you either get care or you don't. If one side will⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhelp you and one side wont, you're going to have a tough time holding on to your rights regardless of one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melection win.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA more unified America with a strong middle class wouldn't need to undermine one group to bolster another,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand you would have more moderate political candidates rather than having to choose between two distant⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mevils every election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI get to not care because years of moderate politics in my country has seen a general trend toward⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhumanitarianism regardless of which "side" wins. Recently the "right-wing" political group of my country⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprotected same-sex marriage, even though it doesn't align with their ideology, because they're only⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmoderate-right, and so their priorities still lie in pleasing the majority and not extreme political⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minterests.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mObviously the US would have a long way to go before it could ever take any of this advice seriously, I was⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjust trying to point out that the divided nature of your population drives the politics too.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhighmastdon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWould you rather be forced to pay 130 bucks a month and still have to pay up to 800 bucks a year for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minitial costs of health care? Because that’s what it means. Or you get your own health insurance and have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msomething to choose from⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdoopy1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think anyone who's sick/dying gets turned away from the hospital.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mriffraff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIn many countries, politics is just politics, it happens in the background and is about as heart felt as[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe weather report.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhich countries are those? Because the US are insane, but politics is heartfelt in all countries I'm⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfamiliar with.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhich doesn't mean we have to reach such levels of infighting of course.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtempestn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCanada feels closer to what your parent described than to what I see in the US, for one. There are of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcourse those at the extremes who are very partisan. Although most of those identify more with US politics⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthan Canadian it seems. But for the vast majority it's much less of an issue than it is in the US. For one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthing, most people are not members of one of our federal political parties. Local politicians don't even⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malign with federal parties, nor do provincial ones in all cases. Many people will shift their vote between⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mideologically similar parties, especially the Liberals and NDP.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBasically, for myself and most people I know, we vote for the party whose platform most closely matches our⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mown priorities and beliefs, but it's not part of our identities in the same way. The parties themselves are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malso far less polarized than in the US. And because it's a multi-party system, you can have minority⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernment that actually functions by garnering support of opposition parties. (We also effectively don't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave multiple veto points though, so generally the governing party is able to govern; I think that also⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhelps keep things from getting overheated.) Of course, the system isn't perfect. For instance by virtue of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeing both multi-party and first past the post, the winning party usually has the vote of a minority of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopulation, and still generally holds a majority of seats in parliament. But I've really come to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mappreciate it in comparison over the past few years.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mehnto[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAustralia is one, New Zealand another. I can't speak too much for other countries I guess so I probably⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshouldn't have written "many countries" as that's just an assumption on my part.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrooked-v[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIssues like basic rights for transgender people, protection of voting rights for minorities, health care for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munavoidable illnesses, and the major economic retooling needed to mitigate the effects of climate change are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m'just politics' only for people privileged enough not to suffer because of them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrebuilder[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt doesn't matter how important the issues are if the political system is so paralyzed it can't get⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manything done.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe USA seems to have devolved into a system where elections are like votes on those huge omnibus bills⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat rightly get so much flak - if you want to see action on the environment, you have to also support⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mincreased welfare spending, increased gun control, gay rights and any number of issues that have nothing to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdo with environmental policy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSimilarly, if you want fiscal conservatism, you have to support people who want to ban abortion, oppose any⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mclimate action, use the state to prop up religion in society and so on and on.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is nuts. The two-party system seems to make it impossible to tackle political issues on their merits,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand I hope the people start to organize around specific issues instead of around the current parties. Pick⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0man issue important to you, maybe starting on the less controversial end, and I think you will find that if⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myou don't mix it up with every issue under the sky, people across the blue-red divide will support it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOrganize those people outside the party system, and maybe you can get some change going.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlliamander[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is generally not just one side that has a meaningful investment in the resolution of some political⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0missue. Arguing that the other side does not have a legitimate concern regarding some political conflict is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgenerally not going to be very persuasive, and it isn't going to make those people go away.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat being said, I think it is possible to care very deeply about certain issues, and act on those⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconcerns, in a way that largely avoids the political sphere. Trying to fix the problems we are concerned⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mabout by means of influencing the power games of elected officials is often very crude and ineffective.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSometimes influencing politics is necessary, but if we let ourselves believe that the only way to effect⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchange is "shake the vending machine" of governmental power we will generally end up frustrated.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlawnchair_larry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhich minorities don’t have voting rights? Are you sure you’re in the correct century?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhigerordermap[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSame for issues like diversity hiring and SJWs irritating well-running open source projects. I say this as⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma left leaning person. Politics and religion tend to divide people thus they have to be kept away, it won't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mharm anyone but self important non-technical idiots who think renaming master to main will change the life⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof oppressed people.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mehnto[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't dispute that, but also realise my comment is about the general population so inherently has to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgeneralize.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI guess my reply would also be that in a well functioning democratic government people get to trust that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthose issues will get addressed in time, though that is also not universally true.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmleonhard[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was a "Trumper" 20 years ago. Your comment initially made sense to me. Then I remembered the many wrong and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mharmful ideas that I recognized and rejected since that time. These ideas lead to real harm for many people.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor example, during Bill Clinton's impeachment trial for sexual harassment of his woman intern, I thought⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat his behavior was no big deal, that we accept that powerful men like to play around with women, and that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe intern knew what she was getting into when she got the job working for him. Later, I realized that I was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwrong. Those beliefs enable sexual harassment of women across society. We must reject those beliefs so women⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcan have equal opportunity and good quality of life.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOther wrong ideas that I had:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- Poor people are poor because they are lazy.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- Violent criminals are violent because they don't want to control themselves.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- Unlucky people failed to prepare properly or were careless.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- Gay people are bad for society.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- Men should be breadwinners. Women should be housewives.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- USA is powerful because God is rewarding its Christian citizens for following His rules.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAll of these ideas are wrong. These ideas harm people and make our society poorer.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, I can remember my previous thought processes and see the dancer spin the other way, but the dancer is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcarrying a single-edged sword and spinning the other way way hurts people.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfuzzfactor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople change.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump was even a Democrat 20 years ago.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGot lots more attention as a Republican now, since 2009.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmqrs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwe're all under the same spell[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIsn't this an oversimplification of politics, though—that our political opinions are nothing more than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpreferences around which we form tribes, and that there is not one single tribe that is objectively correct⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen it comes to matter of policy when, in fact, there are correct ways of deciding on policy.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTake vaccines, for example, or the matter of wearing masks. If I am for vaccines and for wearing masks during⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe pandemic, am I simply in some kind of "spell" and am I not, objectively speaking, correct, because my⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mopinion on those matters are backed by science?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjohngalt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mone single tribe that is objectively correct[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are conclusions that are more true than others, but it gets messy when people start talking policy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGround level facts have regularly led to horrible policy decisions despite being 'correct' according to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mscience.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mam I not, objectively speaking, correct, because my opinion on those matters are backed by science?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is true that shutdowns, distancing, masking are all evidence based methods to contain the pandemic.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHowever, politics is not only about selecting what methods work, but where they are applied, and who bears⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe cost. There is rarely an objective 'backed by the science' answer across the board.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mregularfry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou're correct, but observably that's not where the political trenches are dug. The wedge issues for the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpast few years haven't been around "how do we best implement the science", instead they're around⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfundamental disagreements that the science even exists.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMoving the trenches such that the main problem was trying to decide what the implementation of the shared⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mscience-based policy should be would be such a seismic shift in political discourse that I don't think I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcan visualise what that world would actually look like.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmqrs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGround level facts have regularly led to horrible policy decisions despite being 'correct' according to[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe science.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYes but that's because of lack of specificity, isn't it? That is, exactly the science in the lab is what is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeployed on a grand scale outside the lab in terms of policy, when the specificities of the real world⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshould have been taken into account.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn any case, with the real-world peculiarities taken into consideration, the underlying science would be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe same nonetheless. It would be preposterous to say that just because vaccines and masks work in the lab⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdoesn't mean they won't work in the real world.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcpufry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlol i no longer have energy for gotta hear both sides argument, whether its naive because of a myopic and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnarrow world view or just bad faith. like you said - how tf is mask wearing a political issue jfc⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcmurf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCombination of decadence, selfishness, cultism and vindictive politics.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe first two are self explanatory and certainly cross party lines.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCult of Trump is to merely accept his say so that mask wearing has no efficacy and is merely political⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcorrectness. And really believe he knows better than scientists (anyone really).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFrom many conversations, it's just to piss off liberals. What I call vindictive politics. Literally many⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconversations, why do you like Trump and agree with him on things like fighting over masks? Schadenfreude.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaking liberals scoff and angry makes them happy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOk why so much annoyance with liberal? A common example, is gay marriage which many Trump supporters⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconsider completely immoral on religious grounds. It's so heinous to them they use oral rape metaphor to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdescribe it: you liberals jammed gay marriage down our throats. We support Trump because he makes you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mangry.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI've asked for clarification: this is pay back for things like gay marriage and protecting abortion rights?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"You betcha its payback! We don't care what crazy things he does or says. The more it pisses off liberals⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe better job he's doing." Their words. They have grievances. Trump soothes it by helping them get⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpayback.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe grew his base by 7 million in this election. He gained almost as many votes as Bernie Sanders total vote⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcount in the 2020 primary.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA lot of people think this is about Trump. And it's gone once he's gone. I don't.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mIzkata[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mhow tf is mask wearing a political issue jfc[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe most common argument I've heard isn't about the mask itself, it's about the government acting like a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mparent that knows better than you. Lots of anti-mask people have said they would wear a mask if the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernment simply treated people like adults and asked instead of mandated it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhackinthebochs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthere is not one single tribe that is objectively correct when it comes to matter of policy when, in fact,[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthere are correct ways of deciding on policy.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are objectively correct matters of policy when your goals, values, and assumptions have been⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspecified. But it is these goals, values, and assumptions that separate the population into different⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfactions. It is not simply a matter of we're right and they're wrong when it comes to settling these⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfoundational issues.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI simply in some kind of "spell" and am I not, objectively speaking, correct, because my opinion on those[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmatters are backed by science?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou are under a spell that maximizing lives saved from the virus is the obviously correct goal, which is why⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mits never even stated out loud. But your policy choices given that goal are objectively correct. The issue⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis whether maximizing lives saved from the virus is the correct goal. Lockdowns have a cost which is mostly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mborne by those who do not have the means to go for weeks or months without work or cannot work from home.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere's also the mental health costs of extended social distancing. These questions are not answered by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msimply referencing the science behind controlling pandemics. There are very contentious foundational issues⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat that must be settled before we can make factual determinations about policy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mOld_Thrashbarg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTotally agree, and I've also voted both ways before. But I also would caution against going too far on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"both sides" thinking. There are some obvious examples of regimes in the past in certain countries where one⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mside was just bad and it was not just a matter of different opinions: Germany, Serbia, Rwanda, etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think Trump and his administration lie somewhere between just being misunderstood by "the other side" and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m100% depraved. I tend to think they're actually quite far to the depraved side of that spectrum, but that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdoesn't mean we can't still pay attention to making sure we see things from other perspectives (within⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreason).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mehsankia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mQuite relevant to that, there's this one SMBC comic from almost a decade ago that I've referred back to on a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmonthly basis, and it just keeps getting more and more relevant every year.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.smbc-comics.com/comic/2013-04-07[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is what often happens in politics. There are a small subset of extremist on either side, and when people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0margue, they're pointing out the worst things the other side's extremists did. Calling each other KKK and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAntifa and racist and SJW. Realistically, between those two extremes, the majority of people are good well⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmeaning people who just don't know what the truth is anymore due to all the lies and disinformation on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mweb. All the clickbait shoving the most rage inducing stories about the other side all day long.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpresentation[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMakes me think of San Francisco Bay Area politics, where progressives have become so progressive that they in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mone breath say that all minorities should be accepted and that the environment is precious, but in the next⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mespouse policies and weaponize environmental legislation to prevent immigrants from entering while⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msimultaneously destroying the environment, as though there's no internal contradiction in those actions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's like people don't recognize what they truly think and do, but instead imagine themselves as a reflection⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof some ideological group they associate with and apply that image to their ultimately selfish motivations.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrooked-v[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mQuite a lot of local politics becomes more comprehensible when you add a 'NIMBY/YIMBY' axis completely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseparate from other stated political views.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjonsno56[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis. And yes to GP, progressive + NIMBY seems to be a very hypocritical view. Which is why more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprogressives ought to become more YIMBY [[37m0[0m]⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] opinion⁣
  ⁣
   [1mABCLAW[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mPeople on the left think that anyone on the right is a lunatic, and everyone on the right thinks the same[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthing about the left.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI firmly disagree. Not all political climates and discourses are as poisoned as they are in the US.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat said, not all political disagreements are created equally. We can have a rousing polite disagreement⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabout immigration levels, national financial priorities, cultural values and so on, but if the discussion is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpremised in a fundamental disagreement about whether or not certain people deserve dignity as human beings⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthen there's very little common ground to build off of.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamanaplanacanal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI’m fairly lefty, and used to have quite a a bit of respect for the right, since I am at heart a bit of a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlibertarian. I’ve lost quite a bit of it though after seeing how so many of them lined up to support⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msometime so obviously amoral as the current President.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mblargmaster42_8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe left is winning the global culture war, Trump was the nuklear option.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgrawprog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHonestly, right and left is pretty nonsensical, at least the current beliefs that qualify as right or left.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe average person likely has beliefs that would fall on both sides and this incessant need to categorize⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomeone as either left or right just leads to more polarization and more extreme views. When people are told⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey must be one thing because they have certain views about one issue, meanwhile their views on other issues⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlean more to the other side. But because of this strange all or nothing paradigm going on, there's no room⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor common ground or compromise, it's all or nothing one side or the other, you believe one thing, so you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmust believe all the things or you're on this side or the other.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's utter nonsense, political spectrums aren't all or nothing, take it or leave it, all inclusive things.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA person is capable of having a range of views on different issues that may fall on either side and it's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mperfectly acceptable for this to be the case.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPolitics like everything in life isn't black and white all or nothing, take it or leave it, it'a a bunch of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mshades of grey like everything else and as with most things the average person, when asked about issues⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwithout the context of left or right involved, will likely express views that fall across both sides of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical spectrum.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmlurp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think this is a really valuable way of thinking. Something similar I wish everyone would ask themselves is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"why do I have this opinion/belief/etc?" for any topic.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJust like most religious people are the religion that their parents were, most people don't really choose⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheir political beliefs. It's not to say we don't learn justifications for what we believe, but it means that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe fact that we believe in one thing over another is somewhat random imo.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSomewhere out there in the US is someone who's pretty similar to me in most ways, they were just born in a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpart of the country where their default beliefs are different.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd for consistency, I [3mdo[0m put more stake in someone's beliefs when they change from their "defaults".⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcharliemil4[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPolitical language "is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof solidity to pure wind"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis feels a lot like GP/OP — Orwell’s politics and the English language, let’s metaphor away values and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprinciples to the relativity of sounds from our meat flaps and we will all be free of this human condition⁣
  ⁣
   [1mWowfunhappy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI really, truly, would like to believe both of the major political parties in the US have reasonably good⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mintentions. It makes logical sense—how can half of the [3mentire population[0m be mostly wrong, and the rest mostly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut then I always remember that in the United States, there is only one major political party that believes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mClimate Change is real. The other party believes the phenomenon is some sort of gigantic ruse.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI consider Climate Change the most pressing issue of our time, and myself a single-issue voter. Not because⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meverything else is unimportant, but because Climate Change is [3meven more[0m important. We [3mhave[0m to get this right,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand we [3mhave[0m to start immediately!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf the two parties disagreed on how to [3maddress[0m Climate Change—say, with a carbon tax versus renewable energy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msubsidies—that would be one thing. But that's not the world we live in. As long as one of the parties insists⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat Climate Change is a complete fabrication, I don't see how I can possibly take anything they say⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mseriously.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mprossercj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs this not a function of how rationality actually works? We all begin with premises which are fundamentally⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munproven and unprovable. Our conclusions follow from those premises. Change the premises and the result⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchanges, though both sets of deductions may be perfectly rational. In other words, rationality is a process,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot a set of conclusions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne word for this is "tradition". If I've piqued your interest, please read Alasdair MacIntyre's book "After⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVirtue," and also it's sequel with a more provocative title, "Whose Justice? Which Rationality?"⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmxfh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhile this might sound reasonable and balanced in most democracies, it's just not applicable to what is/was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhappening in the US. Regardless of moderate views of individuals, this election was not about economic⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolicies or other debatable differences, this election was about if we can get back to this described⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdiscourse level of coexistence, not where one side's chief strategist says it's required to behead scientists⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor deterrence, any adherence to truth, decency and the general right to exist for minorities was on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtable.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlawnchair_larry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand the general right to exist for minorities was on the table.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo, it wasn’t, obviously. What a disgusting thing to say.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf only you were right.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt is indeed a disgusting thing to be true.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlazyjones[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou seem to be affected by the exact thing the post you replied to is alleging. As an outsider who reads⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mboth sides' arguments all the time, I am convinced that Republicans currently lean towards supporting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfreedom of speech and personal liberties, civil discourse, equal rights while the Democrats are the exact⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposite. They are supporting and defending violent protests, looting, segregation(!), vowed to make lists⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof Trump supporters to deal with after the election etc. etc. … Perhaps this is "truth and decency" for some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople, but to many it's not.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtempestn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere are absolutely extremist supporters of both sides. For instance, I'm dismayed at some of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mschadenfreude reactions on Twitter by anti-Trump people right now. (In particular the "I love to see Trump⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupporters cry" meme that really needs to die, as it's extremely antagonistic and unhelpful.) However the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifference is, on the Republican side, it comes right from the top. Just read Trump's twitter feed: it's an⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mendless stream of ad-hominem attacks and lies. Regular politicians will attack their opponents' positions,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand they'll spin or stretch the truth sometimes, but I've never seen another American politician, much⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mless a president, stoop to the level that Trump regularly inhabits in his everyday discourse. I mean, just⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlisten to Biden's victory speech and compare it to Trump's. Or compare their twitter feeds. To say the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRepublican party stands for civil discourse… I honestly don't know how you could have watched the President⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor the past four years and come away with that impression.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmxfh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt was not about what reasonable people think at this point, it’s about what they do and who they enable to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0menact power. The people you mentioned have no power and are not endorsed or are told to „stand by“. This is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma very significant difference. As a reminder the whole reason Biden entered the race was Charlottesville.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDarknessFalls[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAre you trying to say that "Truth isn't truth"?⁣
  ⁣
   [1msecretsatan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat’s a very long winded way of saying supporting a man who went on stage and openly opined that ingesting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdisinfectant could be a solution for covid is very sane⁣
  ⁣
   [1msimonebrunozzi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo surprise you've been upvoted so much. Yours is a truly remarkable comment, and observation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'd humbly add that at least to my eyes, most of the time the discussions on disagreements between two⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical parties are simply ineffective at trying to solve the disagreement, and rather irrational or badly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0marranged. In other words: most political discourse you hear these days seems useless.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mJustsignedup[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI personally find it hard to look at the right as anything but poison.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can disagree with you on economic ideologies, I can disagree with you on military spending, how to treat⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe drug epidemic, how to solve the incarceration problem, etc. However when one side literally empowers⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthose that executed my family in WW2, it is no longer a disagreement, but a fight for my life.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mThorentis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't know of any legislation introduced by any right wing government anywhere in the world, that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mliterally empowers Nazis. I'm sorry that you feel like you're fighting for your life, but I'd be interested⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto know which country you live in that you fear for your safety. Surely, unlike during WW2, we have enough⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfreedom of movement that you can leave a place where genocide could occur at any moment?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mregularfry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI suspect that you may already be aware that one does not need explicit government legislation to empower.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAlso, "if you fear for your life because of your ethnicity, you should leave" literally supports ethnic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcleansing. Healthy societies view that as outside the bounds of legitimate political discourse.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcmurf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou may not realize it but you're referring to the Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees. 1951.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt is long considered a fundamental human right to be able to flee danger. Because otherwise wars start and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0matrocities happen.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump consistently blocks their rightful entry into the US, vilifies them as invaders, denies that they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave rights to entry, and tries to scare people into thinking they are a threat.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe child separation from parents policy, and there are hundreds that have still not been reunited with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir parents today, has been admitted publicly without shame. Vindictiveness. It is to scare immigrant and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrefugee alike so they don't come here. It is to bully them in order to make American liberals angry,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbecause making liberals angry is an inherent good in right-wing ideology.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMeanwhile Europe is having its own problems with refugees, and right-wing movements who hate them. So no we⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdo not have freedom of movement, at least not everywhere and not for everyone who needs it. And that means⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwe haven't learned a few important lessons - all of which are relatively well contained and explained in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe 1951 Convention documents.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwatwut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSurely, unlike during WW2, we have enough freedom of movement that you can leave a place where genocide[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mcould occur at any moment?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI know you went for hyperbole, but … refuges are not exactly wanted. Have a look at what life in refuge⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcamps is, the issues and destabilization it brings.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere are genocides and atrocities going on now and last years. And it was not easy or possible for those⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople to leave. It was even less possible for many of those who left to actually build new lives.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd in any case, by the time of WWII Hitler was firmly in power. The time to prevent his atrocities was⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myears before and atrocities happened because his party was not stopped 1918-1932.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mboomboomsubban[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThough the obvious answer is your family is Jewish and the right empowered Nazis, the ambiguity of your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstatement means your family could have been Nazis and the right empowered Americans. There are like thirty⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcorrect choices in this macabre madlib.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjariel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"when one side literally empowers those that executed my family in WW2, it is no longer a disagreement, but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma fight for my life."⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOddly, Trump is the most staunchly Zionist / Pro-Jewish President in American history (of course, all for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhis own benefit, I don't think he actually cares about any of it.)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLiterally his daughter, and most trusted advisor [3mconverted[0m to Judaism.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mParadoxically, it's now the 'global left', particularly in Europe who have faced real and serious problems⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof anti-semitism. In the UK, the Labour Party has had to eject several members for anti-semitic views (not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjust anti-Israel) and had to embark on programs to remedy the situation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"In October 2020, the UK's human rights watchdog found Labour to be "responsible for unlawful acts of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mharassment and discrimination"." [[31m1[0m] From the BBC no less!⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost of my childhood friends grew up behind the Iron Curtain (Ukraine, Poland, Czech) or in Communist⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnations like Vietnam, Cambodia, China. Many family members murdered, starved. My Uncle fled with his mother⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthrough a forest across the border, chased by soldiers to escape. Many Serbian/Croatian friends who's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparents lived through a very special kind of hell.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPerhaps you can ask one of your workmates from Hong Kong what he thinks about 'Socialism With Chinese⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCharacteristics'? [[33m2[0m]⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPlease don't let us assume that one person's history or clan's mortal enemies represent the 'big picture' of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manything.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump is a 'thuggish businessman with authoritarian tendencies' - not actually an ideologue. The extreme⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mviews on either side are toxic and have quit a history of mass murder. If we want to compare 'Deaths Caused⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mby Stalin/Mao vs. Hitler' that would be a futile effort I think.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMitt Romney and Barack Obama are both fairly good representations of either side and they're both fine men,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mif you're having trouble grasping why most people would be ok with that statement, maybe spend some time in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manother part of the country (Utah?) and make some friends there.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] In October 2020, the UK's human rights watchdog found Labour to be "responsible for unlawful acts of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mharassment and discrimination".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism_with_Chinese_charact…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcmurf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mQuite a lot of American liberals think Trump conned his supporters. Promised them factory jobs, didn't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeliver, etc. It should be considered the other way around, that the populists saw him as a narcissist who⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould bully their enemies for the mere simple favor of adoration. Who was being conned?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlawnchair_larry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNeither side empowers anyone who executed your family WW2. Where on earth did you get such a delusion? Are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou trying to turn the “alternative facts” thing around? What a completely insane thing to suggest.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkortilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDid the Jews kill your family in WW2? Because Trump spent a lot of time pissing off Germany and cuddling up⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith Israel.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m0xB31B1B[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwow man, theres a lot tied up in here. First of all, "the jews" and "israelis" aren't the same thing. In⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfact, the nazis killed basically zero Israelis in the holocaust. Second of all, the modern state of Isreal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munder Bibi is essentially an right wing Jewish ethnostate that oppresses the Palestinian minority, and the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmajority of American Jews do not support the current Israeli government.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mleptons[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe think it's the other side that's crazy, but we're all under the same spell.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn this case, one side is [3mprovably crazy[0m, and the evidence from our intelligence agencies shows they are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdangerous lunatics. The other side wants empathy, equality, science, and truth to rule the day.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not sure how you can just hand-wave that away. Your comment is the same old "both sides" fallacy.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdisgruntledphd2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen you think like that, you've already lost.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLike, if you believe that all humans have rights and dignity, then you shouldn't be saying crap like that.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you don't then how are you different from your enemies?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat you are saying is that GP's conclusion is [3mimpossible[0m, and are thereby falling into the very trap you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdescribe.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlawnchair_larry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs the provably crazy side the one you’re on? Because this is provably false.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mleptons[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThen prove it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfuzzfactor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe two parties provide the opposing agendas which dominate, and the particular characteristics of each⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate are secondary.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEspecially when neither party has much to offer the average citizen any more, they have built their strength⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtraditionally on low voter turnout where extreme factions loudly broadcasting gradually become⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mover-represented in the most polarizing way.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs cycles continue only the most polarizing issues drive the turnout, and for turnout to grow beyond a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcertain point the majority of the potential voters must perceive the other party as a more serious threat,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen compared to any security offered by their own party which they (might) have chosen because they found it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mless offensive (maybe only in past cycles too).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe parties no longer need to have as much to offer the average citizen as cycles go on, when they can get⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcontending turnout from their own extremists combined with orders of magnitude more sympathizers who can be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconvinced to strongly fear what the _other side_ could take away.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSeems like after a party has been around for longer than any living person, they will not get support by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhaving more to offer average citizens than in previous cycles, only by taking less away from them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo the average citizen hasn't had a positive outcome within reach for a while.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNow it's too late, these top candidates are realistically as youthful as you can get compared to the grand⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mold parties themselves, and regardless of personal integrity or leadership style can not offer anything above⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat from the parties alone.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEven in the case of Trump's extreme personality, which the Democrats did not even try to nominate a candidate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhaving that feature, so this element was as one-sided as you can get.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI saw agreement from both sides that a wet dishrag could defeat Trump if only 270 electors represent voters⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho just plain dislike or hate him. Conversely it was recognized Trump would win if he had merely 270⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melectors of voters who dislike or hate one or more of the current items on the Democratic party platform.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNeither strategy can offer anything to the majority of the citizens in the political middle, the true average⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcitizen, since turnout has been driven by fear not opportunity.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBuilding a coalition from a carefully-crafted extreme attention-getting position, and pushing hard from there⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mso the other side ends up below the 50 percent needed to be in power, has turned out to prevail over⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrepresenting even the middle 50 percent of voters which is how it was supposed to be at a minimum.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo once the issues and/or personalities representing them have reached full polarity, 50 becomes more of a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconstant to be converged upon from afar rather than a starting point to build a majority from in both⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdirections.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mResulting in half the voters who turn out, and half the politically centrist citizens (which is a much larger⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgroup by a variable multiple of active voters) who will always be dissatisfied and these are two different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgroups (but having significant overlap), the latter of which is the core of the majority that all parties are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msupposed to be treating as constituents.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut the core of the majority in the middle doesn't have a voice because they don't have any party which⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrepresents them any more, the parties are doing other things with the money and the concerns of centrist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcitizens are given lowest priority.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe party gets more votes over the long run by fear-mongering against the other side regardless of who the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidates are at the time, and only declining resources can be justified which might actually benefit the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmajority of citizens.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mProblem is, the majority are voting against their own best interest because their own best interest has not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbeen available for a number of cycles. Rather each side votes against what's perveived as the other's best⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterest instead, since that's the only thing at stake anyway.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo the majority of voters end up speaking for the entire population as designed, but all votes are cast⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst someone's best interest because the minority party is voting exactly the same as the majority in this⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mregard.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo it's unanimous by both parties that as few of the average citizens as possible should have their best⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterest be served, and to redefine democracy in that direction can not be accomplished during a single cycle⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mor maybe not even a single generation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEnding up with the choice between a trustworthy Joe and a dishonest Don the thing that doesn't really matter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto half the voters as much as it should.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would probably help if there were parties which were younger than the candidates.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mromanoderoma[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2manyone on the right is a lunatic[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn my country where there isn't a two party only system, but a plethora of positions ranging from the most⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextreme to the most moderate, for decades the left Vs right battle created a gradient of opinions⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere are lunatics on the left and on the right, sometimes they have been violent, sometimes they put our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocracy at risk, but in the end both left and right rejected them⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe had our momentary lapse of reason when we (not me, but still…) elected Berlusconi, it seemed we lost our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmind (we probably did) and nothing worse could ever happen to any other country politically speaking⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is on a new level of tribalism, divide and polarization though⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow a real lunatic, with evident sever mental health issues ended up at the white house is gonna be a big⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mblack spot on American history (the greatest democracy in the World, the greatest country in the world, etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0metc.)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtroughway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHere's another one: [34mi.pinimg.com/originals/59/c3/f3/59c3f3e74d9ca7f2ce94…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1msleepysysadmin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not American but my non-political echo chambers have gotten quite political. Chess, Infosec, Atheism,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mphilosophy, reddit, etc HATE trump for example. Then I have other echo chambers that tend to love Trump.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPersonally I'm neither side as I'm not American. I also enjoy looking at both sides and it's remarkable how⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdifferent the viewpoints really are. The echo chambers worked exactly as expected, those places that hated⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtrump only hear about things that are terrible about trump. Nothing negative about Biden at any point. Every⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msingle Gaffe by Biden was portrayed as completely fake as deepfakes or old footage dubbed over etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGenerally speaking my echo chambers leaned anti-trump. The one thing I failed to find in the last 2 months is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0many actual discourse. There is absolutely no neutral viewpoints. There is absolutely no discussions between⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe 2 camps. The political divide in the USA is worse than I have ever seen it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe perception I have, that wasn't a free and fair election. What's even more curious is that nobody seems to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcare. Ends justify the means. Which hey, I personally very much prefer Trump to lose. However, if healing the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical divide is a goal, that's basically impossible now.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mablekh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOK, so the transition from Make America Great Again slogan to Make America Decent Again (and Better) reality
  [0mis inevitable and welcome. It is easy to get overjoyed by results of the U.S. Presidential Election (and some
  [0mcelebration certainly is in order).
  [0m
  [0mUniting the country is definitely a commendable goal, though it is easier said than done. The election results
  [0macross all levels clearly illustrate just how divided and polarized this land is. Thus, it will take quite a
  [0mlot of time and effort to see a reasonable progress on this front. We all can play our part in it by a polite
  [0mand constructive dialog with opponents and first finding common ground on such pressing and all-encompassing
  [0missues as coronavirus pandemic, environmental protection, social justice and health care reform.
  [0m
  [0mIn the meantime, let us not forget that, in order to restore the heavily damaged moral fabric of this country,
  [0mrelevant measures should pass through the Congress. And while Democrats retain control of the House, the
  [0mopposing party might retain control of the Senate. Which most certainly will lead to a significant gridlock in
  [0mmoving forward with the democratic and, in some cases, progressive agenda unless Democrats retake control in
  [0mthe Senate. Remember, [3mwinning a battle is not a guarantee for winning a war[0m. That is why the U.S. Senate
  [0mrun-off elections in Georgia to be held on January 5 ([34mgeorgia.gov/vote-2020-runoff-elections[0m) are crucial.

                                                   [1m▶ 98 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 98 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs there really any common ground?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moften unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith people who don't care about facts or reason?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn addition their leadership appears to be completely unwilling to act and good faith and the rank in file⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mappear unwilling to hold them accountable for that fact.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI would love to be able to see some way to find common ground, but It seems to me that doing so would just be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mplaying the sucker.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mh0l0cube[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs there really any common ground?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSome policies, when detached from political partisanship, could be appreciated by voters on both sides.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor instance, for those who believe in human rights and social justice (a supposedly 'left' concern),⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere's good cause for opposition to China. In terms of jobs and national security, wresting some of China's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhigh-tech manufacturing capability back within US borders would be a boon for employment across⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m'middle-America' (a supposedly 'right' concern). More importantly, I think both the concerns of human⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrights, and the employment of your fellow citizens, should not be a partisan issue.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think most people want the world to be a better place to live, with better human rights, and a wage.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAllowing China to gain leverage on the world, despite a track record of human rights abuses, and building a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrade deficit with them, isn't really in the general voters interest.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd this is just one example. I'm sure there's more common ground if you look just at policy.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makiselev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMore importantly, I think both the concerns of human rights, and the employment of your fellow citizens,[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mshould not be a partisan issue.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMcConnel has already demonstrated that he will make it a partisan issue by ramming through a Supreme Court⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjustice and recessing the Senate without even giving the appearance of considering a second round of COVID⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrelief.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnd this is just one example. I'm sure there's more common ground if you look just at policy.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt won't force bad faith actors to cooperate, regardless of any common ground between voters because they,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mas the GP said, won't hold their politicians to account. Acting as the opposition even when they're in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpower is built into the party at this point, as demonstrated by the President's many legislative failures⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstarting with the ACA repeal. It's just wishful thinking and I'm hoping enough people are done with the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfeel good woowoo.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrmk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is bipartisan agreement that China needs to be confronted and contained. How it is accomplished may⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe debated, but that is tractable.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is almost no agreement on the rest of the agenda, though. Democrats and leftists want green⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minitiatives and universal healthcare, which both have zero support from Republicans. The leftist wing of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe Democratic Party will be emboldened by their successes this election and will hijack the agenda,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mforcing America to smack the new administration (and Congress) back into doing nothing by putting in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRepublicans during the midterms.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRepublicans have much more discipline as a party and will work to obstruct, because that's what wins them⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvotes. Why should they cooperate with a party that spent the majority of the past four years trying to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimpeach a legitimately elected President? In fact, they might start a similar effort, because the saga of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBiden's ne'er do well son Hunter has barely begun. Trump is not going away, neither is Steve Bannon. They⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave a lot more time on their hands to team up again, possibly bringing Donald Trump Jr. into the fold, to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbuild a grassroots opposition campaign to stymie the Democrat agenda. Remember that Trump has already made⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe Republicans' long-sought wish of a Conservative Supreme Court (for almost a generation) a reality. He⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhas also given the Republican party a good number of wins in the House (+5/6 for Republicans vs +1 for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDemocrats). So from their perspective, it may make sense to ride the Trump wave some more, because it has⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdelivered for them.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdbrueck[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, there is a ton of common ground with 99% of the people on the "other" side, whichever side that is from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf one big problem facing U.S. politics right now is that everything is distilled down to a binary either-or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith no room for nuance, its sibling problem is assuming that everyone on the "other side" from you is the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msame, i.e. that the crazy extremist you see on TV is a prototypical example of everyone in that group. In⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreality, nothing could be further from the truth.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat's what I used to believe, but these aren't people I see on TV, these are people I actually spoke to.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen they ignored the facts I asked them what facts would change their mind and was told point blank that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere were no facts that would change their mind.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't see how you can engage with that.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't see how that can be the case when nearly 50 percent of the country still supported Trump despite⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBiden running on a centrism and reconciliation platform. If this matchup wasn't enough to get Republicans⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto cross the aisle then I'm not sure I believe that anything is.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPolitics here stopped being about policy so now it's just a very unproductive culture war battlefield.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAbsolutely nothing will ever be achieved in that state.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere are enough policies that both sides overwhelmingly support to keep this congress busy - marijuana⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegalization being the lowest hanging fruit from what I can see. Some kind of a federal minimum wage hike⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis another one.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mxnyan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYes, there is a ton of common ground[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat's an example of some common ground you see, and very roughly how does it happen? For example, we all⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0magree that X is bad, so we will pass a bill to do Y.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mObviously, that example is hypothetical. Any common ground will not involve legislation as the explicitly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstated and (very successfully practiced for 6 years) position of one party is a hard-stop on any⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegislative cooperation.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIf one big problem facing U.S. politics right now is that everything is distilled down to a binary[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3meither-or with no room for nuance, its sibling problem is assuming that everyone on the "other side" from[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3myou is the same, i.e. that the crazy extremist you see on TV is a prototypical example of everyone in[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthat group. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is why I’m an independent. The quicker people realize the solution isn’t blue or red, but instead in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe middle, the quicker we can actually resolve issues.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmiked85[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMy experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3moften unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis absolutely goes both ways; that is the biggest problem.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mfaitswulff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAbsolutely not equivalent. Find me a liberal police captain who’s calling for Trump supporters to be shot⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min the head: [34mabc3340.com/news/local/alabama-police-chief-on-socia…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mraegis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDisagree. When Obama was elected, the Republicans in congress swore to never support any of his policies,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregardless of whether they agreed with them. (Eric Cantor and others admitted this in interviews.) This⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mseverely degraded the relationship between the parties beyond repair.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjkubicek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’m excited and eager to have discussions with people who don’t share my political position on the issues.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHowever, I am not at all eager to have a discussion with people who are arguing in bad faith or staking⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir position on lies and falsehoods.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat’s the point in having a discussion on the best ways to combat the effects of climate change when one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolitical party has taken the position that anthropogenic climate change doesn’t exist?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat’s the point in having a discussion on the best way to fix the broken US healthcare system when one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolitical party not only refuses to acknowledge that it’s broken, but is trying to undo what minor⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimprovements we’ve been able to make in the last 12 years?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe GOP has marked itself as an opponent to everything that Democrats suggest and has painted itself into⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe stupidest possible corner, where they need to fight tooth and nail against their own policies because⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere’s a Democrat administration.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlinuxhansl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAll this talk about "sides" is not helpful.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat I will say is that there are those are reflective of their viewpoint, will question and review their⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchoices, and change their mind about things in light of new information…⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd then there are those who are not and won't; those who act out of tradition and pride, those who believe⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min conspiracy theories, those who let themselves be played like marionettes with simple trigger topics,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0metc.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is a difference; but it's not left or right, conservative or liberal, it's reflective or not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreflective.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtw04[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrue. The ACA was after all, literally the republican plan straight from Mitt Romney, but Democrats were⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munwilling to negotiate or compromise. (Yes this is sarcasm, ACA was literally the Democrats meeting in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmiddle when they didn't even have to)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEverytime someone like you makes this claim I ask the same question: show some examples. "both sides are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe same" is a weak excuse for supporting bad behavior. The Republicans haven't acted in good faith since⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mabout the early 90s.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mromanoderoma[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt goes both ways, if you don't consider that one side has a leader calling out his people to be vigilant⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand prepared and in fact two men father and son have been arrested yesterday in Philadelphia armed of ar-15⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith hundreds of rounds, the other has leaders thanking the volunteers of all sides and talking about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreuniting American people⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpm90[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSorry, this isn’t true, and it’s important to call out as such.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.vox.com/polyarchy/2017/9/22/16345194/republican-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRapzid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI will give you an example: gun control.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWait what?! Doesn't one side want to take the guns away? Doesn't the other side want teachers with guns in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mschools?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell, it turns out the majority of Americans not only agree on the need for better gun controls, they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactually agree overwhelmingly on certain specific controls as well.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's a classic wedge issue though, and FUD is deployed to drive that wedge between both sides which prevents⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmost major cooperation on the matter. Unless there is a crisis, and then both sides will make an easy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msacrifice to look like they are doing something. Like bump stocks. Nobody really gives AF about bump stocks,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mso they banned them.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mablekh[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI sincerely believe that there is definitely [3msome[0m common ground. Otherwise I would not have posted that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthought.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs it easy to find that common ground? Of course, not. Will it take a lot of time and effort (from all⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msides)? Absolutely. But, in the end, it is certainly worth trying, at the very least. That is why I have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlisted the areas, which I think represent some aspects that I hope we all could easier agree on than some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mother aspects.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFinally, I think that it is important not to generalize people, based on our own (limited) experience. Some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople on other side(s) are more flexible than others. Moreover, I believe that people can change, including⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheir point of view on various issues. If we will dismiss the idea that others are or can become open⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mminded, we will shut the door to a potential dialog, which could bring us even more trouble.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrectang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe USA seems bound for "illiberal democracy", a la Orbán in Hungary, Bolsonaro in Brazil, Erdogan in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTurkey, Kaczyński in Poland, and Modi in India.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(If you are a Republican, assume a Democratic autocrat, and if you are a Democrat assume a Republican⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mautocrat.)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDemocracy in general has the weakness that the party in power can constrain the ability of the opposition to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompete. We don't yet know how to stop the slide into illiberal democracy from happening.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mXorNot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHi, I'm from Australia. Voting is mandatory here! Turn out in our elections is 99.x%. You are not obligated⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto make a choice, but you are obligated under pain of a $30 fine to be registered at a polling station on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melection day. You can avoid the fine if you present a valid reason for not voting after the election when⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnotified. Such a reason would definitely include "I was prevented from voting" or "I was threatened if I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvoted", and would be registered with the AEC and investigated seriously.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOur Electoral commission is the most trusted government body in the country, and has maintained a culture⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof independence and accuracy. We don't have any form of electronic voting, but generally have election⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresults on election night.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOur system has multiple viable political parties! Factions on both the left and right of the spectrum at⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmultiple government levels have successfully won and lost seats over the years depending on their ability⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto poll within the electorate. This [3mhas not[0m resulted in them being regarded as "spoilers" to the main⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolitical parties, and has acted at times as an effective check on government policy since it encouraged⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcross-party negotiation through multiple avenues.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs our system perfect? No - no system is. But come election night, our representative government [3mactually[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrepresents the people. If you got 51% of the vote, then 51% of the population, through some means, selected⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myou as a preferred candidate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjcims[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn most cases you're likely just engaging in rhetorical volleys with the other person.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUntil someone trusts you to handle their concerns and vulnerabilities with care, you aren't going to get⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manywhere.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe relationship is paramount in communication, and it's the one thing that social media (and the pandemic)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas most effectively eliminated from our daily lives. In this particular case I think we all need to 'act⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlocal and think global'…stop sparring on the Internet and try to make inroads to mutual understanding with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthose that you can see and hear.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbaybal2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs there really any common ground?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolitics is all about uncommon ground. People hardly ever can have one, as the word suggests the tragedy of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcommons follows quickly upon reaching it. Mutually beneficial status qua don't last as somebody always want⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto get more of the benefit than others, and exploit the situation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople are not born equal, tribes are not equal, nations are not made equal. There are always the weaker,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand stronger.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolitics is how you get along, and live another day with all above concerned. How somebody weak can live⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0malong somebody strong, without having the later kill him simply because he can. Same way, how a strong one⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan live with peace of mind knowing that if he lets the weak leave, they may well live to grow big, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msurpass him in the future.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLife is an endless play of king of the hill.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnewacct583[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs there really any common ground?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFlorida Amendment 2.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's right, on the same ballot where Florida solidly selected a republican president, republican⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlegislature and republican house delegation, they went >60% [3mon a $15 minimum wage[0m.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mProgressive legislation is popular. Progressives are not, because of branding and demagoguery (and no small⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mamount of bald-faced lying).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's common ground. It may not look like it, but it's there.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmarkvdb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs there really any common ground? There can be. On an individual level, where there's mutual trust. At[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe right time, better not in the heat of this moment.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI remember having a very fruitful discussion with a Trump/Pence supporting friend, somewhere in the middle⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof Trump's presidential term.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy friend's background as a conservative evangelical is _very_ different from mine. He is a decent and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcaring man, and I am 100% sure he'd describe me in the same way.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt started with hearing the news together. A few discussion points were Trump's pussy grabbing video, his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manti-intellectualism, and the environment. The discussion also meandered through science and religion,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreligion as a fertile ground for symbolic language and ended up with virtue signaling.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe were able to come to the conclusion that this Trump-evangelicals alliance would damage them for years to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcome. How it would be better for them to ally with decent people instead, whatever their view on religion.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd here we are…⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdavrosthedalek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTry to assume their views, and then work from there. What would you believe if you start out with the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposite's viewpoint? What is the easiest acceptable modification of their believe system? Move them step by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstep.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcentimeter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere’s a slate star codex post that describes research demonstrating that conservative Americans can⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpredict the responses of progressive Americans to political questions, but the converse is not true. It’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot that conservatives are “unwilling to consider” conflicting ideas; in fact, they do a much better job of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmodeling conflicting ideas than progressives do!⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost of the difference is, I think, not based on factual disagreement, but based on principal disagreements⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon issues like the personhood of fetuses.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThere’s a slate star codex post that describes research demonstrating that conservative Americans can[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpredict the responses of progressive Americans to political questions, but the converse is not true.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAll this demonstrates is ideological consistency on the part of Liberals.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt’s not that conservatives are “unwilling to consider” conflicting ideas; in fact, they do a much better[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mjob of modeling conflicting ideas than progressives do![0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCitation needed.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMost of the difference is, I think, not based on factual disagreement, but based on principal[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdisagreements on issues like the personhood of fetuses.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA fetus isn't a person in the eyes of the US government. It never has been. This is an orthogonal issue to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhow to handle abortion in America. Conservatives believe that those who seek and provide abortion should be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpunished, but we know that this does not result in fewer abortions. Liberals believe that we should take⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msteps to limit the need to seek the abortion in the first place.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mghomrassen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's the old adage, "conservatives think liberals are stupid, liberals think conservatives are evil."⁣
  ⁣
    [1mvonwoodson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo. “Common ground” is a false peace flag… a friendly sounding phrase meant to play on liberal preoccupation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith “a fair system” If you’re unfamiliar with how conservatives do business, it’s worth investigating.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mStart here: [34myoutu.be/MAbab8aP4_A[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen you need to expand your knowledge beyond YouTube videos I’d recommend this book:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.amazon.com/Reactionary-Mind-Conservatism-Edmund-…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA conservative plea for “common ground” is very similar to a mind game explained here: [34myoutu.be/YOqJ4sc9TAc[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtomrod[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRegarding common ground, I believe so. Just as several people were shy to admit voting for [candidate name⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mredacted] those are the same willing to seek common ground.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI worry more about those for whom politics is a team sport, and who ignore whom they marginalize in their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mquest for ideals.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgiardini[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mharimau777 asks:[3m>Is there really any common ground?<[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFirst one must ask whether there is "common ground" within the factions of the Democratic party itself.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOnce victory has been declared and legislators and executives ensconced in their offices, a feeding frenzy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwill ensue within the Democratic Party. Each faction will demand that [3mtheir[0m agenda be pursued [3mfirst[0m with the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmost [3mmoney, time and effort[0m. Unfortunately resources are limited (in particular time is limited to 4 and,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min some cases, 2 years). Political infighting amongst these factions will increase to a level so intense⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat people may long for the return of Donald Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlsiebert[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA lot of people support cannabis legalization, and Biden wants to decriminalize it and leave it to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstates to handle.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've seen a lot of people noting how drug policy liberalization won big across the country, even in red⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstates.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdjitz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is not exclusive to any one side. That’s the problem with having “sides”.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoe_the_user[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mMy experience talking to the other side during this administration is that they are completely unable and[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3moften unwilling to consider any argument or information that conflicts with their views. How do you debate[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mwith people who don't care about facts or reason?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour comment about "facts or reason" is sort of odd given your post gives no details concerning what you⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsider these to be. I mean, I could fill in some but it seems like without you giving a clue as to what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou're referring to, people can only shout for you or against you.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mxnyan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHere's an example. My facts, which I think are shared by almost all people for at least hundreds of years⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(at least anywhere there has ever been a plauge):⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m1) Sometimes human spread illness to each other via spit, like when they talk⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m2) A piece of cloth in the path of spit will probably block some or all of the spit⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat is the entire argument for wearing masks. Wearing a mask costs almost nothing, and you know it might⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhelp save lives if you believe 1 and 2. I live in a state where not wearing a mask is very common. Most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople don't even have them on in something like a gas station. People are dying here at 2x the national⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maverage.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy neighbors, whom I have known for a decade, told me that my personal wearing of a mask was a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolitically-motivated attack on their beliefs. Millions of people have similar beliefs.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFor example, during the impeachment hearings discussions generally went like this:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI presented officials who gave damning testimony before congress.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe person I was speaking to responded that person was biased or untrustworthy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI pointed out that they were lifelong Republicans or respected experts and asked what sort of witness would⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchange their mind.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe person I was speaking to responded that no witness could change their mind.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpm90[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCorrect and it appears that even though Trump lost, Trumpism allowed most Republican Senators to keep their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseats and they even won more seats in the House, and didn’t lose a single Statehouse.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis election has been a repudiation of Trump but not Trumpism.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msokoloff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think there’s a good chance that the GOP leaders are almost as happy to see the backside of Trump as the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDNC leaders are.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcoffeemug[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can get along with people from a different political camp, no problem. My gf is liberal, I'm conservative.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe have lively debates about it, but we respect each other and never let politics get in the way of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrelationship. It's as simple as that.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut over the last few years friends called me a nazi and a racist, coworkers ostracized me for having⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munfashionable political views, many people cut contact entirely under the premise that I "support" white⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msupremacy. This isn't some shit you easily forgive, and it isn't something you ever forget.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis wasn't just about politics, or teams, or policy preferences, or red vs blue or whatever. This is people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdenying your humanity on no grounds whatsoever, and when you point it out they say "well, minorities have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malways felt this way, so shut up and take it." That's fair enough, but it isn't about groups of people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moppressing other groups of people. It's about Bill and John and Sally-- people who used to be friends and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcolleagues-- treating me like I'm a monster for no reason whatsoever other than a mass psychosis. That's not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomething you can ever come back from.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is people denying your humanity on no grounds whatsoever, and when you point it out they say "well,[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mminorities have always felt this way, so shut up and take it."[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere's where they are coming from: Donald Trump was denying people's humanity on the grounds that they came⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrom south of the border. He was literally separating children from their parents to scare others away.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen I have explained that to Trump supporters, they immediately gaslight me; telling me it wasn't that bad,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mor Trump's fault.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's about Bill and John and Sally-- people who used to be friends and colleagues-- treating me like I'm a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmonster for no reason whatsoever other than a mass psychosis.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey don't mean to. Really, they don't. The trouble is, they just can't find a reason.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe only reason I can think of is that Trump supporters really don't know what's happening. That they don't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbelieve it. It looks a lot like mass psychosis.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt looks even more like a cult. I would know: I grew up in one. If I can come back from that, you can come⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mback from this. The first step is empathy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAre you certain that you aren't in the "group of people oppressing other groups of people"?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI know it can be hard to confront that question. I did it about a year ago. When I did, I found out the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manswer was "no".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI dug a little deeper, and realized it wasn't a soft "no", either. I was an instrumental part of an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minstitution that tears families apart and drives children to suicidal ideation. I always knew there were⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0missues, but I had plenty of excuses for those issues and the institution's part in them.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you really aren't a Nazi or a racist, then will you reconsider your support for the GOP? Bill, John, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSally didn't just pull that out of their asses. What they said to you was disrespectful and dehumanizing,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbut it didn't come from nothing.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makiselev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHere's where they are coming from: Donald Trump was denying people's humanity on the grounds that they[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mcame from south of the border. He was literally separating children from their parents to scare others[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3maway.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo put it precisely, the child separation policy is in clear violation of the fourth Geneva Convention, the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mGeneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War[0m, which also governs the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrights of aliens in times of peace. Specifically, Article 38 §5:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mchildren under fifteen years, pregnant women and mothers of children under seven years shall benefit by any[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mpreferential treatment to the same extent as the nationals of the State concerned.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe US has been no stranger to Geneva Convention violations but this is a particularly egregious example⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwithin our own borders thats also arguably a violation of the [3mGeneva Convention on the Prevention and[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mPunishment of the Crime of Genocide[0m [[33m2[0m].⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mComing from a country that lost tens of millions of its people to the war machine that inspired the Geneva⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mConvention, I feel physically sick that people support someone who would [3mintentionally[0m enact such policies.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe last four years of gaslighting has made it incredibly difficult to interpret that support as anything⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut a complete dereliction of empathy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mihl-databases.icrc.org/ihl/385ec082b509e76c412567390…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34mihl-databases.icrc.org/applic/ihl/ihl.nsf/Treaty.xsp…[0m - Article 2 is the relevant one⁣
  ⁣
     [1mSamReidHughes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell you see, normal people don't go into these sort of histrionics over — and let me check my notes here —⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdetaining criminals.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtroydavis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnyone read a practical 20 year plan to decrease divisiveness in the US (say, to 1990s levels)?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOr: Ignoring funding, what would you do?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAn example year 1 goal: "Get X million people to watch 10 hours/year of strangers who they would normally not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mencounter or agree with, and to see them as real people."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo do that, produce and televise + stream a long-form TV show, like a version of Braver Angels' Red/Blue⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWorkshops[[31m1[0m] that's actually fun to watch. Imagine a well-produced show with deep participant profiles - a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcross between a reality TV show and a HBO/Netflix long-form movie.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would humanize the participants first, then after viewers care about them, their lives, and their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfamilies, the actors gradually explain their backgrounds and opinions - some of which a viewer will disagree⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith. Viewers would "meet" people they may not interact with regularly. (Sarah Silverman's "I Love You,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAmerica"[[33m2[0m] is the closest I've seen to this, and it's not all that close.)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis would need to be a multi-decade plan, probably with philanthropic and public funding.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m]: [34mbraverangels.org/what-we-do/red-blue-workshops/[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[33m2[0m]: [34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=xmQpf-B94mc[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhumanrebar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think any plan that neglects ratcheting [3mdown[0m high-stakes issues to more local levels is fighting against⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstrong headwinds.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn other words, we can avoid winner-take-all dysfunction by allowing more diversity in governance. If we⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmake every issue national, it makes it too important who runs the national government.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWithin reason, we should find ways to let California be California and Alabama be Alabama. Alabama and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCalifornia shouldn't have to struggle against one another as much as they do.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe only way that I could see that working is if we allowed states to impose tariffs embargoes and on each⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mother. There would need to be some way for states to protect themselves from other states' negative⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexternalities or a race to the bottom.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe fundamental flaw is that a lot of things can only be accomplished at the Federal level. 50 plans for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mglobal climate change not only doesn't make sense, it would result in direct violation of the interstate⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mclause.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmolsongolden[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCompulsory national service to prevent people from living their entire lives within the bubbles into which⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey were born. Compulsory service erases geographic distance along with racial and class divides.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcamgunz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1. Separate opinion journalism from reporting journalism.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOpinion journalism can be w/e. Reporting journalism has to be fact checked. Masquerading as reporting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjournalism should be a big bad. You gotta disclose opinion journalism up front, like you gotta put a Surgeon⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGeneral's warning on cigarettes.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2. Mandate non-partisan districting boards and do away with "safe" districts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis would lose majority-minority districts, which are responsible for a big proportion of our Reps of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcolor. But safe districts skyrocket partisanship; politicians in safe districts can wander super far from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe mainstream—think Steve King for example. And actually they oftentimes have to become radical in order to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msurvive primaries. There's only so much you can do here with the current system but, a little would help a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlot.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3. Empower state and local governments by repealing balanced budget amendments and term limits.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mState governments have really hamstrung themselves with these policies, and as a result the federal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgovernment has to do a lot. This creates a perception—right or wrong—that a far away government is telling⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou how to live your life. If the federal government has secured rights for all and managed federal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconcerns, it should be reasonable for say, Oregon to have one set of gun regulations and Illinois to have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manother.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m4. Make voting compulsory, make Election Day a holiday, expand early voting, establish same day registration⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meverywhere.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe majority of Senators (and in midterms, the majority of Reps) are elected by a minority of people who are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmuch more partisan than the mean. This pushes politicians out of the mainstream.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m5. Federally finance elections, shorten the length, and amend the Constitution to obviate [3mCitizens United[0m.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCampaigns and their ads are super polarizing. Special interests run messaging campaigns on wedge issues⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(abortion, immigration, gun rights) in order to pass bills like SOPA or subsidies for fossil fuel energy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompanies in the night. Campaign finance reform disarms all this.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m6. Limit the terms of Supreme Court Justices to 18 years and enact jurisdiction stripping.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe stakes of Supreme Court nominations are so high that it drives us all crazy. We should limit their terms⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mso that 2-term presidents get to nominate 2 Justices, and we should limit the power of the Supreme Court on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe basis that it's a deeply undemocratic and unaccountable institution. Pro-lifers feel this every day, as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo progressives. We all agree it's bad; let's change it.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m7. Enact affirmative action for mortgage companies, fund housing assistance, and reform public schools.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US has a huge de facto segregation issue due to generations of discriminatory practices by mortgage⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompanies, and the sky high cost of housing in neighborhoods with good schools. This creates fertile ground⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor bubbles and othering, not just in adults but also in children.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m8. Re-establish affirmative action for colleges, and make it free.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe partisanship gap in the US now largely traces the education and income gap.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m9. Establish clear boundaries on religious freedom.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mReligious freedom is a fundamental part of the fabric of the United States, but so are personal liberty and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mindividual rights. We need to give people the ability to live out their beliefs, but also establish a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpluralistic society free of discrimination towards _and from_ the religious. Fighting a culture via⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreligious freedom debases us all.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdisgruntledphd2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m2. Mandate non-partisan districting boards and do away with "safe" districts.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is critical, and if it can be done (and then move US presidential electors to be 1 per district) and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myou make things very, very different and the American people can decide what they want from there.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtamaharbor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m10. Eliminate Facebook and Twitter. 11. Establish National Voter ID and consistent voting rules.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpzone[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don’t think this can be done without altering social media algorithms to revert back from the “⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mengagement-maximizing” firehose of vituperative extremist polarizing political sludge they pump into⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meveryone’s feed these days.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdisgruntledphd2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis was happening long before social media became a thing. As i keep saying, the best thing to do would be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto re-instate the Fairness Doctrine.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcm2012[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe thing is, any reasonable, evidence based discussion is going to end up concluding that the 90% of GOP⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtalking points are lies, so right leaning people would claim the show is left biased.⁣
  ⁣
   [1martificialLimbs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis site used to not be filled with leftist cheerleaderism, as far as I can remember. Shocking that such a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnebulous non comment is at the top.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's my opinion that freedom should be of primary importance in America, not feel good authoritarian inducing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwoo.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt seems to me that the left is the side supporting freedom right now. I don't think someone is free if they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon't have the material resources to make their own decisions. That's to say nothing of minority rights and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mending the war on drugs.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mBurningCycles[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI don't think someone is free if they don't have the material resources to make their own decisions.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo who is the one who is to be forced to provide them with said material resources ? They don't just⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmagically appear. The vast majority of people with material resources have worked very hard to aquire them,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvery often by working very hard at producing material resources.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThat's to say nothing of minority rights[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat rights are being denied to minorities ?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs someone who always saw myself on the left, being a proponent of universal healthcare and focused on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mclass issues, I can no longer recognize myself on the left with them going all in on identity politics,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdividing people not by economic class, but by immutable characteristics like race and gender.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdillondoyle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOr you know protesting to stop counting votes!? Talk about freedom. I'm happy we won but my god I don't how⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwe can move forward from here⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRedistribution of wealth is not promotion of liberty. Quite the opposite.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHelp your fellow man. Do not force others to do it for you at the point of a gun.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpnw_hazor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe left is abandoning enlightenment principles of individualism in favor of skin color. They define people⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbased on external features rather than their actions or thoughts. That doesn't smell like freedom to me.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAla, I am racist because I am a white person who is not racist.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkzrdude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat kind of freedom? Many would like to be free to be freelancers without having to worry so much about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhealth insurance. How do we get there?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhumanrebar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think it's not controversial that employer provided health insurance is a silly mechanism. But animosity⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprevents significant progress away from the status quo.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mJaimeThompson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI am not so sure that they like the freedom to do that but they see no other way to provide for themselves⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand their families. Such realities make it rather difficult to prioritize what is better in the long term⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mover the more immediate need to eat.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere's no such thing as a free lunch. You can't just wish free healthcare into being. Nothing of value is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfree.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCraigJPerry[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile it’s certainly true that America is not the most free country in the world, it’s still inside the top⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m50. What freedoms are you trying to exercise but are being stifled?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mafjl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDon't think you've been around long enough to really say that for sure.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mptero[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mUniting the country is definitely a commendable goal[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is hard and may backfire in a deeply divided country. To me, instead of trying to achieve a common⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mground (which, in the current situation often means forcing 49% to the position of the 51%; with the chance⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof a swap in 2-4 years) we should learn to live, share space and collaborate with folks who hold different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical views.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe can disagree on politics, but it should not prevent us from working as a team on software or sharing a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbeer after work. We are not at war with the other half of the country. We should respect their opinions and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mavoid unnecessary confrontations. My 2c.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrooked-v[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe can disagree on politics[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe problem here is that treating politics as 'just politics' is the realm of people privileged enough that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey have never directly suffered because of those politics.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTransgender rights, for example, are never 'just politics' for me: they are a basic moral issue that deeply⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maffects the life of one of my close friends.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mBlammar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI was agreeing with you until your next to last sentence. Sometimes you cannot respect someone else's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopinions.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI believe the fundamental dichotomy is that, for some of us, our opinions are not who we are. We can change⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mour opinions and remain the same people.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor others, their opinions ARE who they are. They cannot separate out their beliefs from themselves, so when⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou question their opinions, they feel you are attacking them personally.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkgwgk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThey cannot separate out their beliefs from themselves, so when you question their opinions, they feel[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3myou are attacking them personally.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd in that case you cannot respect those opinions?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjariel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPlease don't assume that 'one side' has the unilateral moral authority to 'make things better and less⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdivided'.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis implication directly contradicts the part about 'unity'.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m'One side' having the run of the system will absolutely lead to greater divisions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is gone, I think most reasonable people will take solace in that. Now that he is gone, having regular⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchecks and balances is a 'good thing'. Having the 'other side' with a narrow, 1 vote majority in the Senate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis probably a really reasonable check on power, as Senators often break ranks with the party so there's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mplenty of room for a 'really good bit of legislation' to get through if the Dems want to push for it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mablekh[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't make any assumptions about any unilateral moral authority on issues. That is why I call for a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconstructive dialog at all levels and across all groups of our society.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs for your argument on checks and balances - yes, generally, it is definitely a very good thing. However,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhen one side uses their position of chamber majority not to collaborate and compromise, but to throw a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwrench into "wheels of democracy" and gridlock the Congress (especially, considering the voting record of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe current majority in the Senate and essentially zero breaking ranks history), which might be extremely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munproductive and even damaging to the lives of the American people, that IMO does not represent the "checks⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand balances" that you're talking about.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjariel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't see one side looking to 'collaborate' other than if they had to and I object to the notion that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0monly 'one side' tries to stonewall deals.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSenate votes [[31m1[0m] are almost never perfectly partisan (52-48 in current form). They are all over the place.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRomney, Fluke others have bounced on some big votes for Republicans, and frankly, we don't always see the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m'break ranks votes' because they are usually foregone: Senate Whip won't take it to the floor if he knows⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere are a handful of stragglers so those 'broken ranks' are not as visible.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/vote_…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdashundchen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHow often do senators break ranks? The Hastert rule and Senate majority leader rules have effectively⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mneutered both chambers to rubber stamps for deals and bills negotiated out of public eye.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe playing field need to be leveled here so that party leadership doesn't have a stranglehold on what comes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto a vote via backroom deals. Legislators need to have skin in the game, with real debate and actual votes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto show where they stand.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSteltek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's hard for Senators to break ranks if bills are never brought to a vote.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthere's plenty of room for a 'really good bit of legislation' to get through if the Dems want to push for[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mit.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere's apparently plenty of room on Mitch McConnell's desk. There are already hundreds of bills that passed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe House sitting there.⁣
  ⁣
     [1miso1210[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf the Democrats win both Georgia elections (or one GA, and NC), and it ends 50:50, with the VP having the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtiebreaker vote, do the Democrats become speaker?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDon't we first need to undo the damage that Trump has done? I can see getting to a point where neither side⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0macts unilaterally, but only after things have been balanced to actually be in the center between the sides.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjakeogh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSpecifically, not some feelings you have, what damage?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthehappypm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt was not inevitable that Biden would win. The electoral college is a major hurdle to overcome — he still⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcame pretty close to losing a few key states like Wisconsin and Pennsylvania which would have made it much⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmuch less likely for him to win. It took hard work, lots of money, and historically high turnout to get here.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIncumbents rarely lose. This was pushing a boulder uphill. But it happened. Biden 2020.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mRapzid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt will help to have an Executive administration that doesn't have its heel on the wedge for the next four⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myears gleefully driving it deeper for adulation and ratings.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mking_panic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe election of the Senate is as representative of the country as election of the president. The idea they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave to vote in accordance with your opinion on issues in order to 'restore the moral fabric of the country',⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhatever that means, is condescending and self-righteous.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdillondoyle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am not alone in arguing that the Senate is not representative of the country, just as the electoral⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcollege is not. And it will increasingly become less and less representative as more and more people move to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma few cities in a few states.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mablekh[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think that my post promotes an idea senators have to vote in accordance with my opinion on issues.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe point I was trying to make is that there is a very real threat of gridlock in the Congress (especially,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsidering the voting record of the current majority in the Senate), which might be extremely unproductive⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand even damaging to the lives of the American people.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdashundchen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt drives me nuts that so much order of business is controlled by a majority leader, no matter the party.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese rules stifle any legislation to a predetermined show for the most part where votes and "debate" is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjust scripted for pundits and news.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf legislation could hit the floor for actual debate and votes without being filtered through partisan⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mleadership I think we could see a lot more progress on things that are popular and bipartisan. Or at least⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegislatures would have to put their names to a vote on an issue. Minimum wage hikes, marijuana⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegalization, criminal justice reform, redistricting and campaign finance reform have all faced great⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupport when put to ballot initiatives around the country. But good luck ever seeing that in Congress.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mking_panic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGridlock is a feature, not a bug. Only the most important issues to American people pass through to law,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhether or not you agree on those issues, which you clearly lay out in your OP in the name of "repairing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmoral fabric" — empty rhetoric.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcatlifeonmars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat is “moral fabric”?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mablekh[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe following definition that was shared by someone on Quora is quite good, though a bit academic. Moral⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfabric is [3m"a metaphor for the flexible but still assured structure of virtue that forms the basis of[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mintegrity and holds society together"[0m.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTo put it simpler, I would define moral fabric as [3ma set of foundational moral principles (common moral[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mground) that most people in a particular society agree on and recognize as guidelines throughout their daily[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mlives[0m. These principles form a cohesive environment of values, which is referred to a moral fabric.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere's a blog post with a potentially better definition:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mnomoralfabric.wordpress.com/2012/10/29/the-loss-of-m….[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGenerally I agree with your statement here. But realize you said “we need to find common ground” then went on⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto say the dems need total control to progress their agenda. These conflict. This attitude is a reason for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe division, and are just plain one sided. If you wanted common grounds you’d want the two parties to work⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtogether, not one have total control of the entire gov.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mablekh[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell, let me literally reproduce my other comment in this thread, which was a reply to another person. It is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot that easy to find, so, for your convenience, I'm reposting it below. While it talks about "checks and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbalances" point, I think that exactly the same argument can be made about "common ground". I hope that it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmakes sense to you.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mAs for your argument on checks and balances - yes, generally, it is definitely a very good thing. However,[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mwhen one side uses their position of chamber majority not to collaborate and compromise, but to throw a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mwrench into "wheels of democracy" and gridlock the Congress (especially, considering the voting record of[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mthe current majority in the Senate and essentially zero breaking ranks history), which might be extremely[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3munproductive and even damaging to the lives of the American people, that IMO does not represent the "checks[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mand balances" that you're talking about.[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut again, this is only stopping progress from your point of view. From the other, it’s stopping damage.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou are implying that your side is right and must have 100% to implement it. Anything short of that is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdamaging. It’s still one sided.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mprogrammertote[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSince you mentioned about Georgia runoff elections, I'd like to share the link to the Democrats' donation⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpage: [34msecure.actblue.com/donate/gasenatebattleground.[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgigatexal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat is really keeping me up at night is the existential problem the US faces for the next 50 years: the ever
  [0mincreasingly large divide that is the polarizing of the electorate. We have to come together as Americans or
  [0msomeone will divide and conquer us.

                                                  [1m▶ 126 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 126 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mglitcher[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIMO the saddest part of it all is that many people seem to be choosing paths of division. I have different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfamily members who are firmly inside bubbles on both sides of the political spectrum. And all of them are way⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtoo comfortable in parroting the divisive language they hear on their favorite network news channels. The⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mterms right/left, red/blue, republican/democrat, conservative/liberal are commonly used with insulting tones⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtowards opposing sides. And when they use these broad terms they seem totally content that they have made a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstrong argument on some issue that actually boils down to making huge over-generalizations of people, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mover-simplifications of complex issues.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't accept the demonization of fellow Americans based on bad faith arguments, but I sometimes I feel like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthis is a minority opinion. We should absolutely fight against specific events, behaviors, political⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrhetoric, and policies we disagree with. And sometimes individuals or small groups deserve to have their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactions demonized as completely against our values. But looking for simple labels to place on literally⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmillions of complex humans in order to point at simple answers to issues where simple answers don't exist is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma fool's game.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maerovistae[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am not aboard with this type of "both sides are problematic" thinking.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOnly one side denies climate change. Only one side denies medical consensus on vaccines and pandemic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprevention techniques. Only one side is okay with mocking a disabled reporter (to pick one egregious example⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mamong countless).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, if you're red/republican/conservative/right, you're voting for those things, you're signing off on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe don't need to "come together and find common ground" on those issues. We need to figure out how truth and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecency lost their footing and slipped off the center stage.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mzucker42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFirst, the comment you replied to didn't argue both sides are problematic, just that not everyone who voted⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor Trump is a bad person. Both sides being problematic also doesn't imply that one side isn't more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mproblematic than the other.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think it's crazy that so many people voted for Trump and honestly believe he's the best person to run the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcountry. I'd have a hard time respecting someone who didn't see how bad Trump was in a lot of ways. But I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthink most people on the left seem to have no idea why [3manybody[0m would vote for Trump, and don't realize that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis more of an indictment of the extent they are out of touch with 49% of the country, rather than an⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mindication of the idiocy of their political opponents.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAn effective rejection of Trumpism must first involve understanding and relating to the people who⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupported him, and I think a lot of people are lamenting the general lack of interest in such discourse.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEdit: fixed two words which drastically changed the meaning of sentence.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlistenallyall[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLook, an objective observer might say, only one side advocates for abortion. You might personally dismiss⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit and say it's a woman's right, but you have to at least acknowledge that people who equate abortion to a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mform of murder aren't totally out-of-line.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPoint being, anyone can pick and choose a handful of issues (and ignore others) to "prove" that anyone who⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvotes for [insert party here] is morally bankrupt.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdnissley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHow do we reunite then?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf we are constantly going on about how bad one side is (fwiw, I basically agree with you about that), then⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit will only lead to more division and resentment. Based on my in group's behavior, it seems like most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople who believe this think that continuing to publicly shame and wag fingers at the other side is how we⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mget to a better world. And it so clearly is not.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm frustrated by this, but also truly searching for solutions or alternative explanations.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mglitcher[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGood points, and I largely agree with you. My "both sides" observation was more to do with how I see so⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmany people willing to disown each other in our individual lives', not so much about broader policies.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is no common ground to be found between believing or not believing in science. But there is common⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mground for us as individuals to see the humanity in each other.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYes, if you're red/republican/conservative/right, you're voting for those things, you're signing off on[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthem.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI wish I were able to convey this better to some stubborn family members. The argument I hear is that they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare voting for partial representation of their conservative values, and they are aware of the downsides of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis choice. But I don't buy it. I think they are undervaluing the negative costs of that vote, or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcompletely ignoring them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mxandroo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mOnly one side denies medical consensus on vaccines[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou’re incorrect about this one AFAIK. From the Safety of Childhood MMR Vaccine section of [[37m0[0m]:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThere are no differences between party groups about this issue. Moderates are a bit more likely than[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3meither conservatives or liberals to say that childhood vaccines are generally safe.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.pewresearch.org/science/2015/07/01/chapter-5-pub…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtaharvey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTotally agreed. The biggest problem in the political discussion is false equivalency.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf one side doesn't believe in truth, facts and science, and the other side defends them as fundamental to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meverything… than those are not equivalent positions.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis has been largely a one-sided war on decency. Don't kill the messenger.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhnracer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe disabled reporter example isn't what it seems. Trump had done that identical style of mocking to many⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnon-disabled individuals before doing it to the disabled individual, most likely he didn't even know the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreporter was disabled, it was just a way that Trump mocks people. The media framed it as though Trump was⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mspecifically picking on his disability even though this historical context (which they omitted on purpose)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmakes that explanation unlikely.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is, of course, no defence of Trump's behavior in this instance.⁣
  ⁣
     [1modessacubbage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaybe it has something to do with career war-mongers and sanctioneers campaigning on their 'decency' or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpathological liars who waged a vindictive, no holds barred war against whistleblowers espousing themselves⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto be defenders of the 'truth'⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mi do not have to like or support trump to think that joe biden is a lifelong robber barron and his return⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto normalcy will be marked by suffering around the world and absolute blindness towards the the deaths of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdespair happening within our own country.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mMonobrow02[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYour side good. Other side evil.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbaked-in[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"Only one side is crazy and stupid"⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThanks for your contribution to fighting divisiveness. I wish you good luck in your quest.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mraunakdag[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell said. The “both sides” thinking only serves to take us even more the tipping point of a scale that’s⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeen moved FAR too much to the extreme right. America isn’t a left/right nation anymore - it’s a far far⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mright and center nation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCivBase[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat really saddens me is that both sides recognize this problem in their opposition but never in their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mside. Or if they do recognize it, it's quickly hand-waved away because when their side does it, it's for the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"greater good". The political double standards keep reaching new heights.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mm0llusk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen people focus on the details of strategies for success in facing our shared problems it is relatively⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0measy to test ideas and get people from all political views on board with effective solutions. When people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfocus on identifying and criticizing enemies it turns people off, builds barriers, and prevents the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgeneration and spread of effective strategies for facing shared challenges.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mputlake[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel like a big reason for the divide is the filter bubbles[[31m1[0m] the public has trapped themselves in. I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwanted to force myself to read news from both sides of the divide rather than simply NPR, which was my go-to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msource for several years. In spite of RSS readers being essentially dead, there are still RSS feeds⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mavailable. So I mashed up feeds from 10 left and right leaning sources each and created Smash the Bubble[[33m2[0m],⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmostly for personal consumption.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m][34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_bubble[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[33m2[0m][34msmashthebubble.com/[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprojektfu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI have tried to do the same, signing up for the Flip Side newsletter, among other things. I think it’s still⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhard for me, an over-educated progressive, to understand the American right. Here are the problems:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1. Reality is often only reported in “liberal” news sources. A lot of information is censored on right wing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msources.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2. Both types of news sources editorialize in the headline. Sometimes it’s hard to know they even refer to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe same story.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3. People trying to achieve balance in reporting often relocate players onto the wrong team. For example,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe Mueller report is not a “left wing” document and balance is not achieved by putting Mueller against a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump surrogate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m4. “Liberal” sources already include plenty of right wing opinions. For example, David Brooks and Ross⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDouthat write for the New York Times. There’s no equivalent among the Wall St Journal columnists or Fox News⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhosts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m5. News stories found only in right wing sources are usually mendacious. For example, reporting about the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMichigan ballot glitch without mentioning that it was human error and corrected before reporting the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresults.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFundamentally, it’s not that we have differing information, it’s that we only accept information that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconfirms our world view. I can read dozens of articles written from the point of view that universal health⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcare will destroy the country and not one will ever resonate with me. It’s just too silly to me.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mputlake[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mFor example, David Brooks and Ross Douthat write for the New York Times. There’s no equivalent among the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mWall St Journal columnists or Fox News hosts.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI used to think that too but it's not true. Example: [34mwww.foxnews.com/opinion/president-elect-joe-biden-to…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mVyperCard[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIndeed I feel the same.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwatwut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am liberal who do read conservative newspapers regularly. The amount of lies in conservative papers is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mastonishing. Not bias, not choosing topics, but flat out lies.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think that they see their role to push for their side and have zero ideological commitment to any⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msemblance of anything else. Do you get sleepy Biden in clear stage of dementia, again and again.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNote that I an not claiming journals should be objective. They can't. Just that there are more lines to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcross. And frankly, liberal journals do go out of their way to extend empathy to "other side" more often.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnoir_lord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI do this over in the UK, I read a selection of newspapers with different agenda's and if a story catches my⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minterest I go look at wikipedia if it has an article, if it's a "Science says"/"Study says" I go look at the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabstract of the study.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's really hard to get a balance look at the news when everything has it's own slant but it's worth the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meffort I think to understand the nuance.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpferde[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLooks like a read-worthy site. Are you planning to add a RSS feed to it?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mesosac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnice website friend. it'd be nice if i could see which domain you're taking the article from without having⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto hover over the link⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcsnover[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes. Probably the worst thing about this election for me is that it seems to demonstrate conclusively that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2016 was no aberration, no temporary mass hysteria, no failed experiment in electing a political outsider to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“drain the swamp”. This distorted world view of us-vs-them tribalism seems to have totally consumed our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical system. Objective reality is dismissed by the majority of the population—most blatantly on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright, but also, increasingly, on the left. Even more shocking to me, highly regarded election data⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mscientists have twice now somehow been blinded to this, releasing poll after poll that fail to capture what⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis actually happening in the minds of the electorate.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCarl Sagan, in his 1995 book ‘The Demon-Haunted World’, wrote:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI have a foreboding of an America in my children’s or grandchildren’s time — when the United States is a[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mservice and information economy; when nearly all the key manufacturing industries have slipped away to[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mother countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3magendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mour horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what’[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3ms true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe moment he prophesied now appears to be upon us. I don’t know how we can restore this country to one where⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpeople mostly act in good faith and try to base decisions in science and fact. I see so many incredibly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompassionate people supporting the most despicable politicians. Right-wingers on Twitter repeating false⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtalking points that the left are trying to destroy the country while tweeting about how proud they are of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlocal youth offering free lawn care to disabled and senior citizens. Left-wingers openly insulting rural and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconservative people as the scum of the earth while relentlessly supporting policies intended to improve those⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msame peoples’ lives. How does this happen? What do we have to do—as individuals, as nations, as humans—to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mget it to stop?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mworldmerge[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere was this really good take on this divide by Andrew Yang a few days ago on CNN [clip from Twitter - 0].⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYang is the only candidate I saw who seemed to understand people from all parts of the US. Also, it would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave been nice to have a president who understood technology.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] - [34mtwitter.com/KySportsRadio/status/1324552953861210112[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlalaland1125[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf only Yang himself understood technology. His blockchain voting proposal was hilariously bad.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mm0llusk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe details of Yang's blockchain proposal may be off, but the basic idea that we could really use a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstrongly secured voting system and that a blockchain or other three column ledger accounting could be a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpart of that is sound.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe does understand VC though? Just add blockchain to the name and get all the funding⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnullc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI prefer candidates that don't think they understand technology.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThinking you understand technology seems to reliably lead to overconfidence. That's better left to advisers,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwho then have their advice filter by people who are sceptical of things that aren't tried and true and well⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderstood on the holistic basis of actual use in practice.⁣
  ⁣
   [1meecc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was talking to a US expat this afternoon. Besides the congratulations and commenting the expectations for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe new administration we reflected on the damage the last 30-40 years of propaganda for individualism have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmade.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIndividuals, their inner world and potential are very important, but you have systematically mortified the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimportance - and the “evolutionary advantage” - of the human societal organization.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOver optimization for the hedonistic “self bootstrapped” man turned most of you - that don’t have the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstrength, but most likely the luck, to be Randian heroes - into the exact opposite: submissive corporate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdrones.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s time to lay the groundwork for long term change, isn’t it?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprojektfu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, the basic human societal unit is the tribe, as evidenced by Dunbar’s number. Within tribes,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minterconnected extended families used to facilitate the social cohesion. In the US, both the small-scale⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msociety and the extended family have been harmed by atomizing and dispersing people for mostly economic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreasons.⁣
  ⁣
     [1markis22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis is absolutely incorrect. there is literally 0 reason to dispersing your family for economic reasons.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt is always cheaper to cohabitate and long term care facilities are extremely expensive…. Especially in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe US.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mddingus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI very strongly agree with this. All of us need to talk, avoid judgement and just understand one another⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA higher degree of basic solidarity will help us a lot.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnec4b[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAbsolutely not. Every society that denies individualism or prefers collectivism finds itself sooner than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlater in misery.⁣
  ⁣
     [1meecc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere you go again, where’s subtlety gone in this world?!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mscsilver[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThanks for this perspective.⁣
  ⁣
    [1markis22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen I think of submissive corporate drones, it's people in public unions.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNot the people at the mercy of Randian heroes like the entrepreneurs of silicon valley.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI had a friend who left public teaching because they wanted to own him and his votes for 35 years and a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpension he'd never vote away. (not a drone right?)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs opposed those awful individuals who move between for profit companies choosing who and what they work⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor.⁣
  ⁣
     [1meecc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOr the employee of a sprawling corporation with a family to feed, a mortgage to pay, a family health plan⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto pay, college and university for their children to pay. Tell me someone that is more beholden to their⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaster than these modern peasants. Yet their daily delusion is to be as free as Bezos could dream of.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis sounds like an only having 2 parties problem, rather than a union problem⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's not like the tech entrepreneurs are from the same class as people who are in unions. The ability to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtake on risk to start a business is an economic privilege, so what's the point of this comparison? Rich⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople have more freedom in capitalism than poor people. Is that controversial?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtheonemind[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt seems like the divide comes from an escalating fixation on having your side win, rather than doing the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbest for the country. As each side focuses more on winning even at the expense of public good, the other side⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhas to ratchet up to match it to get any input at all.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI sort of feel like we're in that old tale where king Solomon says they should cut the baby in two, and both⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msides are like "ok, I'll take my half of the baby, then."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUltimately, though, I personally blame the extreme right wing, mostly. I think they're dying, and they're not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgoing down without a fight, like, you know, disinformation, bullying, holding the country hostage⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmetaphorically, whatever. If they're going down, the whole system's going down with them.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mswsieber[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI personally subscribe to the idea that week need to kill the self serving two party duopoly[[37m0[0m]⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPart of the problem is the candidates the parties are fielding. I know lots of people who view trump, clinton⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand biden as corrupt. None of them are good candidates.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m0. [34mfreakonomics.com/podcast/politics-industry/[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mPeterisP[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mKilling the two party duopoly requires significant constitutional changes to how elections are held. One way⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto do that would be ranked choice voting as implemented in e.g. Maine⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m([34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_Un…[0m).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHowever, the key point is that such a system would mainly benefit a potential third party, but any changes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto the system need to be agreed upon by the current representatives whose interests and reelection would be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhurt by such a change.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrudeau lost my vote by not going for this in canada, but the problems did hilight that there's a lot of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malternatives and choosing a specific replacement is hard.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMost agree that FPTP is bad, but nobody agrees on what to replace it with⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhobofan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFrom the perspective of a European outsider, I very much agree. A lot of problems seem to stem from the two⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparty system.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm just wondering if there is a good way for a strong third (and fourth and fifth…) party to form under the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcurrent system? Are there any good examples from other countries making that transition, and can they be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mapplied in the US as well?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mantod[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNew Zealand switched from a mostly 2 party first past the post system to a proportional multiparty⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(usually) coalition system about 25 years ago. We would also end up with governments that won the most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mseats but lost the popular vote.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIMO we have had much better quality governments since from either end of the spectrum. We had a notorious⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopulist authoritarian in the 70s and early 80s, and I don't see those days coming back.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mNickNameNick[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn a "First past the post" electoral system, It's always more advantageous for the 3rd party to merge with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe first or second party.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNew Zealand changed away from First Past the Post to Mixed Member Proportional in order to fix that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed-member_proportional_repr…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_system_of_New_Zealan…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm not sure how you'd implement it, particularly at the senate level.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mPeterisP[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe current system is game-theory-stable given the conditions of the USA structure of first-past-the-post.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou can look at the historical third parties in USA - a third party [3mcan[0m form and gain power (with great⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifficulty) but then it pretty much immediately displaces one of the two parties, so you're back to a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtwo-party system just with different two parties.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwolfhumble[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mFrom the perspective of a European outsider, I very much agree. A lot of problems seem to stem from the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtwo party system.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI used to think the same way, but many (most?) countries in Europe end up having coalitions anyway, so you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mend up really having just two blocks. More parties might give you the option to choose a party that is more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mafter your taste, but in reality you (often) end up with coalitions that take most ideas from the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstrongest party within the coalition.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would assume the same thing would happen within the Democratic/Republican Party in the States as well,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mi.e. a compromise between the left/right wings within these parties based on what is shared by most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmembers(?)⁣
  ⁣
     [1msecondcoming[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe issue with that is that you can end up with ineffective 'rainbow coalition' governments. It can also⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgive Independents far too much power since they can threaten to collapse a coalition at any time.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtunesmith[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDuverger's law has a lot of redundancy in our current system. If you implement something like IRV on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstate level for presidential elections without handling the Electoral College, then you've just further⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mincreased the odds of Republican presidencies.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mswsieber[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhy Republican presidencies?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mzebrafish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI honestly believe this is just a return to normal for both sides. Conservatism, before being injected with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mneoliberalism by Thatcher and Reagan, has been about leaving other countries alone while focusing on⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprotecting American interests. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Conservatives have never wanted US⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhegemony traditionally. Preservation of Bretton Woods has had to be a focus post-WWII in order to combat the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mspread of anti-American communism. Now that the Cold War has ended, conservatives have tried to find a way⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mback to focusing on American interests. It’s a delicate balance that has to be struck though. I think this is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malso the reason for the split in the Democratic Party. “Establishment” members are focused on preserving the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mneoliberal Bretton Woods status quo. The progressives are focused on doing away with the oligarchy that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystem has created and moving towards a more socialistic global society.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI believe this is really just a return to the way things used to be, before the US decided to intervene in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWWII and had to find a way to pay for the massive cost of that. Conservative and liberal are not opposites⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlike everybody thinks these days. Conservative and progressive are opposites. Liberal and authoritarian are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mopposites. Both parties are (or should be) focused on the American ideal of liberalism and representative⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment chosen by the people while either preserving traditional values or advocating for enlightenment⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvalues.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHowever, real life is not that cut and dry, politics are messy, parties don’t fall exactly along these lines⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand the media plays a part in dictating who should believe what. But in general I think Trump is an indicator⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat we’re headed for a more traditional alignment of values. Who knows, perhaps a viable third party will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0memerge from this. A Conservative party, a progressive party, and a Bretton Woods establishment party.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKarrot_Kream[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI honestly believe this is just a return to normal for both sides. Conservatism, before being injected[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwith neoliberalism by Thatcher and Reagan, has been about leaving other countries alone while focusing on[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mprotecting American interests. Speak softly and carry a big stick. Conservatives have never wanted US[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mhegemony traditionally. Preservation of Bretton Woods has had to be a focus post-WWII in order to combat[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe spread of anti-American communism. Now that the Cold War has ended, conservatives have tried to find a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mway back to focusing on American interests. It’s a delicate balance that has to be struck though. I think[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthis is also the reason for the split in the Democratic Party. “Establishment” members are focused on[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpreserving the neoliberal Bretton Woods status quo. The progressives are focused on doing away with the[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3moligarchy that system has created and moving towards a more socialistic global society.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would agree, to some extent, if Trump wasn't the Conservative candidate. Trump has flouted the law to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mextent that very, very few American Presidents have. Where I was afraid that Obama was passing too many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExecutive Orders, Trump outright tried to rule by Executive Order fiat. Conservative parties pre-Bretton⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWoods were certainly isolationist and domestic-first, but also had a deep affection for the rule of law. I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwould oppose a traditionally conservative party politically, but would not be nearly as negative about it as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am about a President that seems to want to actively subvert rule of law.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmcguire[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI believe your second sentence should end as, "has been about focusing on protecting American interests⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhile leaving other [more powerful] countries alone."⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America%E2%80%93United_S…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1m1_player[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat surprises me is how politicised American teenagers have become nowadays. I'm a (European) Millenial, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen I was 14 neither I nor my peers had any faith or interest in politics. Have a look on Reddit, where most⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof the population is US-based teenagers: in that place politics has infected every single discussion.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m/r/The_Donald was a bunch of angry teenagers.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMeh, I must have become a cynical grumpy old person: to me politics has always been a game for rich, old⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpeople.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcsnover[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI mean, at least on the surface, things seemed pretty optimistic in the late 1980s through the 1990s, from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat I remember. It wasn’t a utopia, but it’s easy to see how there would be less pressure for young people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto be involved in politics.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Cold War ended and the USSR peacefully dissolved, democracy was ascendant, the Good Friday Agreement⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mended The Troubles, East and West Germany reunified, the Schengen Area and the Eurozone were established,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe International Space Station opened an era of international cooperation in peaceful space exploration,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlife expectancy was up, disposable income was up, new and amazing technologies were developed at record⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpace, substantially improved treatments for fatal conditions like HIV and cancer were entering the market,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwe’d nearly cracked the human genome, we’d made great progress in eradicating infectious diseases, people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maround the world were being lifted out of poverty, crime was down, the Western economy was strong. The world⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseemed less divided and closer together than ever.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mToday, tensions between superpowers are up. Russia and North Korea have renewed the threat of nuclear armed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconflict. The UK exited the EU. There’s an obesity crisis. Many of our amazing technologies have turned out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto be terribly unhealthy and destabilising. Authoritarianism is on the rise, along with domestic and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msectarian terrorism. The Western economy was shattered in 2008 and now there’s a global pandemic. Immigrants⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfleeing instability in other countries have led to political upheaval and conflict. The US became an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munreliable ally. And, above all, the existential threat of climate change looms over their entire future.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mheartbeats[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe people just got bored? Maybe they don't like peace after all?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNearly all western thought since the last war, certainly all ‘progressive’ thought, has assumed tacitly[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthat human beings desire nothing beyond ease, security and avoidance of pain. In such a view of life[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthere is no room, for instance, for patriotism and the military virtues. The Socialist who finds his[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mchildren playing with soldiers is usually upset, but he is never able to think of a substitute for the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtin soldiers; tin pacifists somehow won’t do. Hitler, because in his own joyless mind he feels it with[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mexceptional strength, knows that human beings don’t only want comfort, safety, short working-hours,[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mhygiene, birth-control and, in general, common sense; they also, at least intermittently, want struggle[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mand self-sacrifice, not to mention drums, flags and loyalty-parades.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhereas Socialism, and even capitalism in a more grudging way, have said to people ‘I offer you a good[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtime,’ Hitler has said to them ‘I offer you struggle, danger and death,’ and as a result a whole nation[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mflings itself at his feet. Perhaps later on they will get sick of it and change their minds, as at the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mend of the last war. After a few years of slaughter and starvation ‘Greatest happiness of the greatest[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mnumber’ is a good slogan, but at this moment ‘Better an end with horror than a horror without end’ is a[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwinner.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m-Orwell⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbradlys[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt could be you were just checked out. I certainly paid quite a bit of attention during the Bush years.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(When I was a teenager) I wouldn’t say many of my peers paid as much attention but I grew up in a very⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconservative and rural area.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m1_player[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI did pay attention during the Bush era as well, I remember buying my first newspaper when US invaded⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAfghanistan. The point is none of us had any faith in those old farts. We wanted change and none of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mparties represented change, they actually were the status quo to fight against.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNow it's like hope for a better, radically different world has just disappeared. It's with us or against⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mus. There's no third choice.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKarrot_Kream[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think it depends on how threatened you felt growing up. I grew up quite poor, and politics was a big part⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof my teenage years, because there weren't very many legitimate paths to stability or success where I grew⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mup in the US. Friends I made as an adult who grew up in the more traditional upper-middle class milleu that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmake up Silicon Valley tech company rank-and-file were much more apolitical at that age.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mBarrin92[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDevolution of power is a solution to the polarisation. The division in the country is real and deep and in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msome places inconsolable, rather than just a media mirage. Rather than increasingly violent competition for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe presidential office or the federal government, a more flexible union is probably a sane idea.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe US faces no threat of being conquered, it has the most powerful military and intelligence capacity in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworld by a healthy margin. Insofar as foreign interference creates division, it's precisely the lack of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdecentralisation that makes these attacks dangerous.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmarkus_zhang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFrom what I see, the polarization is continuing to grow, and with Trump grabbing 70 million votes even when⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis gov failed majestically at beating the virus, the next few years is going to ne interesting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkelnos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost people I know are happy and celebrating, but I can't seem to get that worked up. Certainly I'm glad⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump lost, but the 70M votes he got, and the fact that this was a close election… man, this country is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mscrewed long term if we can't figure out a way to find some common ground and listen to each other. Being at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meach other's throats all the time will only destroy us all in the long run.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtayo42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs the problem really listening? The conservatives of america are ignoring facts and making up their own⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreality. They ignore science and reason.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat can you listen to? You can't have a reasonable debate when one side if just making things up.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAbortion is science, climate change is science, race and gender differences are proven facts.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEdit:instead of downvoting me explain what's wrong? Wtf. So much for listening…⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmarkus_zhang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYeah reminds me of the previous 20s and 30s when the great depression brings about the rise of polarized⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mleft and right and things only got turned around when WW2 broke out…⁣
  ⁣
     [1modessacubbage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrsnkly i think economic populism that doesn't generate wealth for urban corporatists by desiccating the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mentire center of the country, combined with a cultural outlook that is not openly adversarial to people who⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdon't listen to npr would be pretty unifying.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut instead we keep running referendums on failed obama policies combined with the sociocultural neurosis⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof overmedicated grad students while trying to pretend all of that is not the whitest shit imaginable.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthe-dude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPractically all western governments failed majestically.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mciceryadam[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGermany is doing quite okay.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjoeevans1000[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mInterestingly, tech workers are responsible for such a resilient divide. Tech workers, the most numerous⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemographic on this thread, are the ones coding up the bubbles or creating and maintaining their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minfrastructure.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe purpose of the bubbles is to keep you clicking or pressing. The purpose of that is to deliver ads or sell⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpremium services. If uncomfortable views are presented a user may click or press out of the service. Those⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0muncomfortable views are not to be confused with click bait allowed to drive bubble responses.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo use blaming the architects or company leaders. If you are coding it up, maintaining the infrastructure, or⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproviding auxiliary support to the bubble, you are responsible. The companies making the bubbles can't do it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwithout you, and you are the one actually making it happen.⁣
  ⁣
    [1modessacubbage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhow would you design away filter bubbles though? people actively seek out agreement and avoid argument even⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhen there are no filters and barely any moderation like still begets like, see the split between /pol/ and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m/leftypol/.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI absolutely agree with you and I think we've gotten ourselves into a state where the "fix" (whatever it may⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbe) will be so unpalatable to either party or to anybody who wants to survive in a political environment that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit'll be impossible to implement.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor example, want to bring manufacturing jobs back?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1. Implement trade-protectionist tariffs and import restrictions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2. Unionize rural workforces to make the pay and work conditions attractive.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m3. Offer massive tax incentives to build manufacturing centers in rural states.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m4. Reinstitute a manufacturing oriented education system that outputs ready-to-work trained trade employees.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe parties are too far apart now to be able to put in place something like this.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mechelon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBuild strong international relationships.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOpen the gates for immigration.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWork with allies to impose extreme tariffs on China.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBuild manufacturing in India, Mexico, Vietnam, and Africa. Own the shipping.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOffer US statehood to Taiwan and keep the South China Sea open to all US Allies. Korea, Japan, Vietnam, etc.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCongratulations, you just proposed the exact opposite.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdanans[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2-4 would have a plurality of support in the country, And with that, bipartisan support.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey can also be done without isolationism, but probably not without redistributing the wealth that has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconcentrated in the hands of the 0.1% over decades (under both parties) back into the general population.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m#2 would never receive Republican party support.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGordonS[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the events of the past week have really highlighted the divide, or rather the [3mgaping chasm[0m. And it's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma gulf that seeks almost impossible to bridge, any time soon at least - it encompasses race, education,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfinancial status, social class, even history.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's actions this week have been utterly shameful. He and his cronies have lied and lied in an organised⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meffort to sow discontent among the huge segment of republicans that appear to believe their every word⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(regardless of how baseless or ridiculous they may be).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt seems like such a blatant attempt to subvert democracy - the kind of thing we'd expect in a tinpot⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdictatorship, not the "land of the free". This is not only shameful, but downright [3mdangerous[0m, especially with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe level of gun ownership in the US.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs a European, it seemed utterly incomprehensible how he has been able to get away with his actions,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minactions and lies over the past few years - and I have not the words to describe how incomprehensible it is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat many of his supporters are behind the past week's events.⁣
  ⁣
    [1modessacubbage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas al gore utterly shameful when he contested florida? the prevailing attitude among liberals ever since is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat he never should've conceded, that the bushes and the courts stole the election.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlvs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis divide is a business plan, not an organic phenomenon. If you want advertising revenue, you must build a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcult of fanatical viewers/clickers. We won't solve this until we deal with advertising as a revenue stream⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor media.⁣
  ⁣
   [1munstatusthequo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso realize that may not be possible. Regardless of who won this, half of the country does not approve. So⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe division you speak of has already occurred. Probably earlier than now. I could imagine a time when a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRoman said the same thing you did there. "let's unite" and then the eventual collapse happens. I don't really⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msee "conquer" in the normal sense, but the U.S. will be weaker and other countries will surely gain as a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresult of our division. Then I think I need to get out of here, and I wonder where I would go in the world?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn the end, I agree with your sentiment. It's disturbing. The polarization is palpable. M⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTarq0n[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPolitical pluralism in other democratic countries seems to do a good job of countering this trend. When⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthere's only two parties they are free to drift to ideological extremes, without other parties being able to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtake up the center.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mheresie-dabord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUS social discourse shows that people don't understand how to debate and how to negotiate with opposing views⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor a better outcome. These are merely group behaviours and they can change with time and education.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel that the first structural steps must be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1./ Replace First Past the Post (it distorts the will of the people) with some version of ranked balloting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(already in use in at least one US state)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2./ Dissolve or fix/improve the Electoral College⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthatwasunusual[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe have to come together as Americans or someone will divide and conquer us.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPardon, but isn't USA already divided approx. 50/50?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFrom the outside (I'm from Norway), I can't even believe how shit the US politics is.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgigatexal[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt used to be that reps from both sides of the isle would come together on things. Think John McCain not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvoting to kill Obamacare as one of his last votes before he died. There was a give and take. It seems that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat is what is missing.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjmull[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNah.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe’re actually at an inflection point where before white men were the elite, no question, that was what it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtook to get in the door outside a few congressional districts.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNow it’s still mostly that but it takes more, and due to demographic shifts it will be that less and less.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe right — belatedly (far too little far too late, and quite awkwardly) — has already started outreach to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLatino and black communities. They will continue but it will take a while (what an embarrassment for the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparty of Lincoln. FFS.).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mObama was a lighting strike to those who assumed it would always be the old way, and Trump was the response⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto Obama.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFortunately, that failed (unfortunately it took hundreds of thousands of dead Americans to convince enough⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMichiganders, Wisconsinites, Pennsylvanians (I’m sure about “Michiganders”, being one myself, no idea on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mothers) but at least it happened.)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe left, quite cleverly, responded with Biden, an old white guy in the classic mold. Literally: nothing to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfear here, white peeps… but with Kamala as VP — a powerless position yet a powerful symbol (especially as the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVP of a VP cum President).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo It’s the changing of the guard. Republicans can no longer simply ignore black and brown people (at best)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mor use them as bugaboos (and then Democrats won’t be able to simply count on their votes by not actively⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbeing racist). Once the powerful engage those groups they’ll find them not to be uniform, and (hopefully)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat will lead to meaningful, nuanced, deep engagement… if that happens, there will no longer be such a thing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mas the “black vote”. (This is further along with Latinos, where some groups aren’t too overwhelmingly for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mone party or the other).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo…⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot really an existential crisis, at least not to my mind. It’s real progress. We can no longer force certain⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgroups into blocks based on whether we actively believe they should be subjugated or just kinda ignore them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHallelujah.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgigatexal[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis makes sense to me.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThen the transition of power or the changing demographics you speak of will disenfranchise those once in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpower and that could lead to violence (think white heavily-armed men intimidating or worse those they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdisagree with). This is what I fear as well.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKephael[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYes, the fact that this is happening due to demographics and not positions "evolving" is obvious. Many⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrecognize immigration as a tool to help Leftist parties all throughout the Western world. Eventually those⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwho have been disenfranchised and blamed for all the ills have had enough it will certainly come to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mviolence. Reactionaries really do not have to engage in "Democracy", democracy certainly does not last⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mforever.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjmull[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwhite heavily-armed men intimidating or worse[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYes, [3mBUT[0m: this has already peaked. A long time ago. This started big a while ago and has had ever-weakening⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maftershocks… Oklahoma City, Waco, Charlottesville.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNow we’re at the stage of a flash Trump caravan maybe provoking a fender-bender and baseless lawsuits from⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma couple of NY goons.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s done.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe quicker people realize this the better. (They won’t realize it quickly, unfortunately. The champions of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m“conservative” right now are a porno-appearing, self-bragging pussy-grabber, and a bizarrely diminished⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mformer NY mayor who now unsuccessfully promotes conspiracy theories and is a punchline in a Borat movie.)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtomjen3[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat country in the world could conqueror America? You would need a better blue water navy and the ability to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msustain 3 thousand miles supply lines over contested waters.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs for dividing the US, I hope the lesson of this election is that you shouldn't assume what you see online⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis representative of the real US - otherwise it would have been a landslide for Biden.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mz9e[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPhysical borders, yes it would be near impossible to conquer us. But our digital borders (social media) are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwide open. You use the power of a beast to destroy itself.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mluminati[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI fear this too. As someone who had read a fair bit of the history of India, and how the British/east India⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompany mind-fucked and pillaged them it scares the hell out of me. The after effects are still there even 70⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myears later.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“History doesn’t repeat, it rhymes”⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbeaner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThey already are. Russia & China's tactics are not so much disinformation, but simply taking our own talking⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpoints and pushing them to us even harder.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mainiriand[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is a very interesting point of view. I fully agree with it, I think it will be an existential threat to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe country as we know it now.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you think that the bipartidism is to blame, amongst other factors? If there were more options then some of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe most radical electorate will have their own candidate and it could help divide the support they get at⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe Chambers.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso smaller parties could help in having more negotiation for bills and laws.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgnopgnip[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBy what measure is the US more divided than in the past?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgigatexal[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOh I dunno: murder of minorities by cops, vilifying an entire nation (Mexico and all the build the wall⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtalk), increasing protests, blatant racism, nationalism being ever more accepted, to name a few.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mA4ET8a8uTh0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEh, it is difficult for me to respond to this in good faith, but I will make an attempt.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI will open by saying something that may not be immediately apparent. The use of force by US government (⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe it state or federal ), has actually decreased over the last decades ( not to look very far back, check⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhistorical records of civil rights and unions in US to get an idea of how things were handled in the past⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m). The only real difference now is that it is on video. But yes, I am arguing there is less of state⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mviolence now.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe nation vilification is nothing new in US ( Bush "With us or against us" that made US population hate⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMuslims — up until then average American barely knew; Disney WW2 propaganda just to name a few better known⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexamples ). These days, it is China ( among others ). Do you see a pattern?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIncreasing protests. I can give you that. BLM protests are probably biggest event in US political scene⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msince Tea Party . That said, I am not sure, they are bigger than civil rights movement or Vietnam war⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprotests. They are more visible due to social media. Thankfully, they seem less widespread though.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBlatant racism. Honestly, I am not sure if racism is a function of "By what measure is the US more divided⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthan in the past?". Quite honestly, I would venture to suggest that today's racism is waay lower than at⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0many point in US history. That said, this is just a guess.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNationalism. Again, I am not sure if racism is a function of "By what measure is the US more divided than⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min the past?". Historically, US gets more nationalistic as things go downhill ( WW2, red scare to name a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfew ).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo.. I am not sure you have a point here. US is obviously divided, but the things you listed are not a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfunction of that division.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0medit: added China to the example list⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmkhpalm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe have to come together as Americans or someone will divide and conquer us.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel like we're likely already in the middle of a divide and conquer situation.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbsder[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe have to come together as Americans or someone will divide and conquer us.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe problem is that the US has a historical example of what happens when the "economic engine" and the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"conservative culture" reach an impasse.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe "economic engine" wins. The question is how much damage will get done until that happens.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRussia, Facebook and the media have already divided and conquered us. The conquest is over. We are just⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtrying to collect the bits and scraps. The conqueror doesn't have to be another nation. Fox News, CNN,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTwitter and Facebook are the countries that have benefited the most.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpjbk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPerhaps that is happening already, and some of the events we have seen in the last months are not by our own⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmaking but fabricated?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrzz3[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRather than blame the left or blame the right for this, I think what we really need is a third party and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mInstant Runoff Voting.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjonwinstanley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTotally agree. How do we adjust our laws quick enough to stop strongmen using social media to whip up fear⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand anger?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdimitrios1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAn amicable solution instead of civil war, or being divided and conquered: how about a national divorce?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdoopy1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere's no divide larger than 50/50 which is just about where it's at.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgiardini[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgigatexal says>[3m" the ever increasingly large divide that is the polarizing of the electorate. We have to come[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mtogether as Americans or someone will divide and conquer us."[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo way. Polarization will continue. The politics of New York and California will remain anathema to the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmajority in "fly-over states" (e.g., Texas, Montana, etc.) for generations. The former two states (NY, CA)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwill economically self-destruct long before such acceptance occurs.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbleepblorp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI realize this will sound snarky and/or overly aggressive. However, I'm being entirely serious and can't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquickly come up with a better way to phrase this:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people with functioning moral compasses come together with the kind of people who see pictures of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchildren in cages and say "America, fuck yeah?"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people who want some form of democratic government come together with the kind of people who think⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit's entirely right and proper for a president to do his best to prevent his political opponents from voting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m— by disrupting the postal service, by soliciting the help of multiple hostile foreign governments to smear⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis opponent, calling for his opponents to be imprisoned without charge, and by attempting to halt vote⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcounting in the courts?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people with any kind of respect for the value of human life watch video of the George Floyd killing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand come together with the kind of people who watch the video and argue that the police did nothing wrong?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think these divides can be healed. These issues are not matters, like arguments over the size of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment, where compromise is both possible and mutually beneficial. Instead, they are moral red lines⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabout which compromise is neither possible or desirable. What the 70-odd million who voted from Trump want⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mout of their country isn't compatible with the basic moral outlook of the 75-odd million people who voted⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst him.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo take an extreme example, if a bunch of Nazis want to kill 10 million people, 'compromising' by agreeing to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlet them kill only 5 million people isn't acceptable — and yet, this is exactly the kind of moral compromise⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(truly in the other sense of the word) that would be involved in bringing together Trumpist and anti-Trumpist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfactions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn addition to the moral divide, there is a reality/gullibility divide between the Trumpist and anti-Trumpist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfactions. Trumpists believe an awful lot of stuff that is factually untrue. They reject global warming and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdismiss the scientific evidence as the product of a Chinese hoax to destroy America. 56% of Republicans now⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbelieve in Qanon (an ideological conspiracy theory born out of the argument that Democrats eat babies) to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msome extent[[37m0[0m]. The overwhelming majority of Trumpists get their news from Fox, a media outlet which spreads⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmore misleading information than accurate information.[[31m1[0m] How does anyone with a commitment to respecting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconsensus reality reach people who have chosen to live in comforting fantasyland rather than cope with the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworld as it is?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't see any way for the US to get out of this mess without breaking up into multiple countries.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd, to the usual 'downvote to -1' crowd: what part of this analysis is wrong?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.politicususa.com/2015/02/06/fact-checker-finds-6…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbleepblorp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI realize this will sound snarky and/or overly aggressive. However, I'm being entirely serious and can't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquickly come up with a better way to phrase this:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people with functioning moral compasses come together with the kind of people who see pictures of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchildren in cages and say "America, fuck yeah?"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people who want some form of democratic government come together with the kind of people who think⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit's entirely right and proper for a president to do his best to prevent his political opponents from voting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m— by disrupting the postal service, by soliciting the help of multiple hostile foreign governments to smear⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis opponent, calling for his opponents to be imprisoned without charge, and by attempting to halt vote⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcounting in the courts?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do people with any kind of respect for the value of human life watch video of the George Floyd killing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand come together with the kind of people who watch the video and argue that the police did nothing wrong?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think these divides can be healed. These issues are not matters, like arguments over the size of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment, where compromise is both possible and mutually beneficial. Instead, they are moral red lines⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabout which compromise is neither possible or desirable. What the 70-odd million who voted from Trump want⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mout of their country isn't compatible with the basic moral outlook of the 75-odd million people who voted⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst him.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo take an extreme example, if a bunch of Nazis want to kill 10 million people, 'compromising' by agreeing to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlet them kill only 5 million people isn't acceptable — and yet, this is exactly the kind of [3mmoral[0m compromise⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(truly in the other sense of the word) that would be involved in bringing together Trumpist and anti-Trumpist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfactions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn addition to the moral divide, there is a reality/gullibility divide between the Trumpist and anti-Trumpist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfactions. Trumpists believe an awful lot of stuff that is factually untrue. They reject global warming and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdismiss the scientific evidence as the product of a Chinese hoax to destroy America. 56% of Republicans now⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbelieve in Qanon (an ideological conspiracy theory born out of the argument that Democrats eat babies) to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msome extent[[37m0[0m]. The overwhelming majority of Trumpists get their news from Fox, a media outlet which spreads⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmore misleading information than accurate information.[[31m1[0m] How does anyone with a commitment to respecting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconsensus reality reach people who have chosen to live in comforting fantasyland rather than cope with the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworld as it is?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't see any way for the US to get out of this mess without breaking up into multiple countries.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd, to the usual 'downvote to -1' crowd: [3mwhat part of this analysis is wrong?[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-electio…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.politicususa.com/2015/02/06/fact-checker-finds-6…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mZpalmtree[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe stop watching CNN so much.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbleepblorp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you have any substantive criticisms of my premise that the US is beset by irreconcilable differences of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min moral worldviews?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFurther, not that I watch CNN, but why should anyone who chooses to consume cable news choose not to get⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir news from the network with the highest rating for factual accuracy[[37m0[0m]?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.politifact.com/article/2015/jan/29/punditfact-ch…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mKitDuncan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mShould just get rid of the two party system and in 20 years there won't be a divide… Of course easier said⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthen done.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprojektfu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUnfortunately that would require a revolution. The system is designed to prevent substantial change because⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe players are already aligned with its incentives. The last big systemic change was direct election of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSenators in 1913.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe past four years and this election has exposed some deep problems within American Society.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf about 47% of your country was happy to kill democracy and reward immoral behaviour just to retain power,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moften justified by religious beliefs…⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd Trump is not gone yet… Who knows what the Republicans will do with the stacked Supreme Court…⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdantheman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think you need to take a step back and really try understand those who disagree with you - your views or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmaybe just the way you express it is toxic and dividing. If you can't think of one reason why someone might⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot want to vote your candidate I feel sorry for you.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are many valid reasons to vote for all candidates and the weighting of the issues is personal and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mperhaps not everyone agrees with the weighting that you do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mread_if_gay_[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIf about 47% of your country was happy to kill democracy and reward immoral behaviour just to retain power[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd these 47% would say exactly the same thing about the others. That’s the divide GP was pointing out and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mironically your response is perpetuating it. Stop dehumanizing people.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mChrisClark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut there was only one side that is proven literally trying to kill democracy. There is no both sides in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis argument.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe republicans might be crying about it, but they have zero proof. Whereas they've literally given us⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir plan out loud of how they were going to cheat. And they followed through.⁣
  ⁣
     [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExcept there really was one candidate who would have been happy to kill democracy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI can't speak for the beliefs or rationale of the people who voted for him but its crystal clear what⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDonald Trump stood for.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think its dehumanizing to talk about the fact that lots people, many or most individually good,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchose to vote for a sexist, racist, authoritarian.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd does anybody really doubt at this point that Trump is those things?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEven though it is a difficult, unpleasant, and heated conversation to have.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's funny that you ask me to stop dehumanising people. But what did that 47% do constantly for four years?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat do you think those 47% want with gays, abortion (is murder!!!!) and foreigners?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mKnowing full well what this last administration is up to?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrtx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is a very western view, you have war criminals as former presidents. This was not the worst of the US.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou have people bombing weddings and you find this to be the worst.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtonitosou[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexactly. the fact that hes the only president in recent history not to wage a war should be reason enough⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor a nobel if we gave it to obama⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmindslight[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs someone who is no fan of the warmongers, imperialist US policy, or the debt treadmill that fuels them, I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould still rather have a conservative president that serves the US power structure, than a president that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshirks his job during a domestic crisis and kills a quarter million Americans. Sorry rest of the world, we⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill get back to trying to stop the war machine after we get our own house in order.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(Also, witnessing the ceding of Hong Kong to China two decades ahead of schedule did make me appreciate the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprojection of soft power where USG had been keeping order without dropping bombs)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIf about 47% of your country was happy to kill democracy[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you think half the country wants to rewrite the Constitution and remove democracy…I'm not really sure⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat to say.⁣
  ⁣
     [1maranelsurion[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI guess almost nobody wants to 'remove democracy' even in the least democratic places.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA more plausible explanation here would be indifference. Maybe they don't want to remove democracy, but not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexactly trying to uphold it over everything else either.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe seeing your cult of personality hero in office, or your religion or your flavour of boogieman (=not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlosing the country to commies kind of thinking) has ultimately higher priority than keeping the democracy⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malive.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm not saying that's what is happening, I'm just saying I can see how masses can smother democracy without⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mspecifically having the intention to kill it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdisclaimer: non-US, my opinion on anything US would be at best inaccurate.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchillwaves[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's more of the half of the 47% who are in the cult of personality. I don't think they were against⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdemocracy so much as for Trump (but it does go to show how little some folks care about democracy when they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare losing).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mben_w[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would be surprised if as many as half of those who voted for him believed that they were voting to either⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mkill democracy or rewarding immoral behaviour.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPerhaps I’m overly-cynical, but in my (limited) experience, most people just don’t pay enough attention for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuch motivations — or even expectations — to be plausible.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's probably worse: they want abortions illegal and gays back in the closet. Look at the packing of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSC.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjl6[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIMHO if you ask Americans bluntly if they’d be willing to end democracy so that their candidate remains in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpower, you’d get only a small percentage agreeing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat actually happened was that large numbers of voters are stuck in a filter bubble and their only news⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msources were telling them the election was being stolen. So by supporting Trump they probably thought they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwere [3mdefending[0m democracy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOf course, those particular news stories were pure lies. But we should focus on the peddlers of lies more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthan those who were duped by them.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msoftwaredoug[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOn the data nerd side I continue to be shocked at how people misinterpret the certainty of polls/forecasts.
  [0mForecasts give us probability distributions based on historical polling error data. Not infallible predictions
  [0mthe expected value will 100% happen.
  [0m
  [0mIt’s fairly revealing of society’s general innumeracy, just as it was 4 years ago when Trump won.

                                                   [1m▶ 75 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 75 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjonhohle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut the polls then and now weren’t just bad, they were shockingly bad and not representative of any real⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpopulation that matters in an election. I’d expect something like this from junior engineers looking at⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmetrics for the first time, but these are supposedly the most respective organizations in their field that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave failed spectacularly for the second presidential election in a row. What value do they possibly serve?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mShould Biden ultimately be declared the victor, I’m concerned that the public will never receive the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpostmortem on what went wrong and how it happened again that it deserves.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI really have no idea where this idea that the polls failed comes from. There were only two bad calls this⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcycle and every other outcome was within the margin of error. It was pretty much the same case in 2016 where⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople who had no idea what they were talking about suddenly decided they were certain polling failed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecause they are unable to grasp the concept of margin of error and sample size.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolls can only guess about turnout and the try to work backwards from there. The turnout estimates were⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwrong but not shockingly so, and as a consequence a lot of polls ended up having the result be at the far⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mend of their margin of error. Nothing went wrong. Polling is hard. Get over this idea that you can have some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msort of certainty regarding an election until we actually hold the election.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mscrooched_moose[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you dig into the the margins they aren't looking very good, even if they got a fair number of eventual⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwinners correct.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPredicted vs Actual (FiveThirtyEight's averages vs NYTimes' current tally; Biden's margin is positive)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPA: +4.7% vs +.5% (-4.2%)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFL: +2.5 vs -3.4 (-5.9)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTX: -1.5 vs -5.9 (-4.4)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOH: -0.6 vs -8.1 (-7.5)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPA: +4.7 vs +0.5 (-4.2)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIA: -1.5 vs -8.2 (-6.7)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNC: +1.7 vs -1.4 (-3.1)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWI: +8.3 vs +0.6 (-7.7)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGA: +0.9 vs +0.1 (-.8)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMI: +8.0 vs +2.6 (-5.4)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAZ: +2.6 vs +0.6 (-2.0)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNV: +6.2 vs +2.0 (-4.2)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey pretty consistently overpredicted Biden's margin by about 4-7% in almost all of the swing states. Even⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mif that's within, or close to, the margin of error; there's a systemic issue if it's happening in almost⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mevery state.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEdit: Added AZ and NV; and the difference⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKZeillmann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy issue with polling is that many races were well beyond the margin of error. The Senate polling in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mparticular was bad this year.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSara Gideon was favored to win the Maine race in the polling, because there hadn't been a single poll⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshowing Collins in the lead since July. She lost her race by 9 points.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's also strange to see the region makes a difference in the poll error. The polls in Minnesota were⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbasically spot-on, but in Wisconsin (demographically very similar), the polling average was Biden +8, with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mone ABC news poll showing him +17, the kind of outlier result you'd expect with a +8 average. He's gonna⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwin there by ~1 percentage point.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere's something wrong with how a lot of these pollsters determine samples, or how they judge someone's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlikeliness to vote.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmixologic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you look at RCP's polling average for Clinton in 2016, she outperformed that average for just about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mevery race.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut, what the pollsters got crazy wrong, was Trumps polling numbers, by wide margins, far outside the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmargin of error.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think they got it wrong this time too, and I think it all comes down to their methodology for [3mactually[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgetting a random sample of voters. Many polls are still married to live interviews and also to landline⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcontact, and also tied to live interview polling - I think there is a partisan slant that they are not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maccounting for that includes a "propensity to answer a polling survey in the first place"⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtitzer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSlapping +/- 5% on top of a prediction that is systematically off by ~5% isn't "in the margin of error",⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit's just simply [3moff[0m. For one prediction, two predictions, no problem. They fall somewhere in this range⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith probability distribution (usually a Bell curve around the mean). But for hundreds, if not thousands,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof polls to be so [3msystematically[0m off, it is not "within the margin of error" or a statistical fluke. If it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas, you would expect a normal distribution around the mean of the polls. The mean was completely off.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPut simply, it was sampling bias. Pollsters screwed up. They either sampled the wrong voters, the wrong⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mareas, mispredicted who would turn out, or voters did not accurately report who they planned to vote for.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGarbage in, garbage out.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou can try to correct for sampling bias, but if you are blind to it, as your comment pushes more people to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe, then you will fail.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI know they were within the margin of error, but the polls were all systematically within the margin of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0merror in the same direction. Did a single poll that was wrong predict at GOP win and end up a Democratic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwin?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mqppo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne could argue the strategic mistakes of the Clinton campaign (ignoring the rust belt) and near fatal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmistakes of the Biden campaign (which looks to be on issues swinging voters in battleground states) were⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdriven by bad polling.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen I hear the conversation about "the polls were wrong" it's never been "the predictions were outside the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0merror margin" so much as "voter sentiment was not accurately measured in regions where voters were most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlikely to flip and why they would do so."⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtsimionescu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe polls showed that Biden would win Florida by 2.2%, and in fact he lost by 3.3%. Is 5% within the normal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0merror margin?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is no reason that polls would be significantly different from the final vote results in most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcircumstances, if they are competently run.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mprojects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/florida/[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnefitty[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think the main problem is that some forecasts gave an overwhelming amount of “hope” for certain races.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis costs real money, as political operatives make decisions on where to spend money based on these⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mforecasts. The closer a race is, the more likely more money will help shift the race.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msampo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI really have no idea where this idea that the polls failed comes from.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFor one, Andrew Gelman (professor of statistics and political science at Columbia University). Who knows⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmore about the topic than anyone here in this HN discussion.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mstatmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020/11/04/dont-kid-y…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mktta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf the error skews in one specific direction for all the polls, then I don't think you can just excuse the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolls by saying they're in the margin of error.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is some kind of non-trivial process problem.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdillondoyle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt was very very bad up and down the ballot. No shit one of our clients their poll was - i'm rounding here⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbecause this is my real name - +15%. They barely won <1%.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI wish pollsters would move towards very very large digital samples. You can't get a 15 minute survey but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhead-to-head you can get a huge sample for not a lot of money. And don't try to weight it to what you THINK⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe turnout will be. Break out likely voter or not. Do not add any inference or opinion or 'math'⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmatt_kantor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople in this thread might be interested in this podcast episode:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.iheart.com/podcast/105-stuff-you-should-know-269…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey discuss a lot of the things brought up here and go into details about the actual mechanics of calling⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople, etc. It's an easy listen.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdom96[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI feel like everyone who's criticing these polls is forgetting one thing: COVID. These polls can only be as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgood as historical elections, and there really is not a lot of data for US elections during pandemics.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnoelsusman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3-4 point polling errors are relatively normal, definitely not shocking. That's why the best forecast models⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstill gave Trump a nonzero chance of winning even though the polls showed Biden up by 8+ points.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolling is really hard. There are fundamental problems with it that are impossible to fully solve. It's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrankly amazing that they get as close as they do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoe_the_user[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNate Silver gave Biden a 90% chance of winning, citing 3-4 tossup and 3-4 likely states. I don't see how his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpredictions don't look reasonable. Silver gave Trump a 27% last election - that's a very reachable⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpercentage . Polls have considerable margin for error. It's standard for people to take a poll result as an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabsolute prediction and then rail against any error but that's not the fault of the poll itself. [[33m2[0m]⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m][34mprojects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[33m2[0m][34mfivethirtyeight.com/features/what-pollsters-have-cha…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1manonu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt might be representative… It's just that people didn't want to say they're voting for trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgreggturkington[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden was already ultimately declared the victor.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m535188B17C93743[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the big issue was the "margin of error" in many of these cases. For example, when Quinnipiac did a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpoll a few days before the election [[31m1[0m], they said Biden was winning Ohio by 4 points with a +-2.5 point⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmargin of error… which happened to be very far off. And this wasn't isolated-–if memory serves me, Wisconsin⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwas even further off?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mpoll.qu.edu/florida/release-detail?ReleaseID=3683[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI really want to know what went wrong with the polls (again). Shy Trump voter doesn’t explain how wrong the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolls were about Graham or Collins, outside of even the margin of error.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAccurate polls are important to running campaigns and to legislative positions. Selzer got her polls right in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIowa and she posited that she knew the local electorate better than other pollsters so she weighted⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcorrectly. Maybe Trafalgar Group has a better method or maybe it just weights GOP voters more heavily (we don⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m’t know, it won’t disclose its methods). Or maybe Trump just breaks polling and the polls will be fine next⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtime. Whatever the reason, I’d like to know, but I’m not sure we ever will.⁣
  ⁣
    [1matoav[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI grew up in a right wing province of Austria and saw that sort of wrong polling throughout my youth — which⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis why I wasn't surprised the slightest about things going as they did.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt boils down to: a fraction of the electorate will vote for [36m$bigotcandidate[0m but would never ever admit it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto anyone outside the voting booth, because they know it is wrong. They will tell people they will vote for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[36m$notbigotcandidate[0m, but vote for him nonetheless.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis fraction is not insignificant and you cannot easily represent it in polls without guessing the effect.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn my home province it eas consistently around 10 to 15% over a decade.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don’t see how that explains the Collins/Gideon race, but I’m not a Mainer. Anyone here from Maine can⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchime in why a Mainer would lie about voting for Gideon?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdrdec[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe campaigns do not rely on the publicly available poll data for the reasons you pointed out - they need⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccurate polling in order to make serious decisions about resources. They pay polling companies to get⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccurate polls and they keep this data private.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe publicly available polls are done for free by polling companies or by news organizations. Unfortunately⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome of these companies apparently have an agenda to push. So they skew their sample away from what the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlikely voters are to get the result they want for propaganda purposes.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think that the rise of Nate Silver has ironically made this situation worse. He advocates taking an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maverage of polls to get a true view of the situation. So if you are skewing you poll to get a certain⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moutcome and you know the poll will be averaged, you need to warp your results even further.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOk, disclaimer time - I don't have any inside knowledge or real evidence of any of the above. It does seem⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto fit however. I can't explain why it seems all the distorting is to make the Dems lead seem bigger than it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis - that is, why aren't there pollers on the other side of the aisle doing the same thing?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo you'll have to decide for yourself if there is any merit to the above theory.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBiden's campaign said their polling showed the race as closer than the public polling. It also doesn't do⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgood to have too positive polling if it suppresses turnout. And it doesn't do the pollster's reputations⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0many good to be consistently wrong.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI've heard several hypotheses, but I don't have anyway to test them. They all seem to have merit.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe issue with your assertion is that it doesn't account for all the times the polls are right. See most⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmid-term elections.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think we have to seriously consider that Trump just breaks things that otherwise would be working within⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreason.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdorkwood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat you're saying is that any result with a non-zero chance of happening should be unsurprising to us,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause it was still in the realm of possibility? If that's the case, what use are polls? What makes an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melection forecast based on polls more valuable than a coin flip?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msoftwaredoug[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour coin flip analogy is spot on. But instead of a 1 in 2 probability, Trump had a 1 in 10 probability of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwinning. We knew this probability precisely because of polling data (and historical error).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis wasn’t some rare weird outcome. This was probably a standard deviation or so closer to Trump in a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mforecast. Perfectly normal thing to happen.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mghayes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSure, the model had value precisely because it said that even if Trump did better than the polls suggested,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhe would likely still lose due to the paths of victory Biden had. That said, the polls have shown, in many⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcases, poor predictive behavior of actual votes, and as such, we should not just brush this off by quoting⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe distribution of outcomes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpessimizer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolls are astrological race science, and the reason you'll never be able to convince anyone of this is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0madequately covered by the book [3mWhen Prophecy Fails[0m. I've come to think that their bias is only slightly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mideological, but instead springs more from a self-serving impulse to mirror the current beliefs of the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maudience most likely to believe in polls i.e. people overly impressed by credentials. They enjoy the sheer⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvolume of numbers, rather than their actual usefulness.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlternate phrasings of identical questions asked in polls creates differences in outcome vastly larger than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe effects they claim to detect. Somehow Nate Silver managed to get rich by selling synthetic CDOs of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0marbitrary polls (to people with his identical political outlook.)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe only real poll is to ask the same questions, in the same way, as the ballot sheet does. Ideally these⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mshould be asked as people are entering or leaving the voting booth, and people should be paid for their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresponses, in order not to bias yourself towards bored loudmouths with nothing to do. This would be good for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccuracy, not for usefulness in anything but generating a suspicion of election fraud.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mInstead, they're trying to figure out what percentage of black people go to the polls in Missouri, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpretending that the self-selected black voter has more in common politically with the general black phone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manswerer than the Missouri voter. Relying on that arbitrary assumption is the entire basis of their field.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0medit: I haven't read [34msite.pennpress.org/aha-2021/9780812250046/race-and-t…[0m yet, but I heard an interview⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith the author around the time that it came out, and it's another hidden history of a field that has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompletely unearned legitimacy. "Political Science" might largely be considered an outgrowth of scientific⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mracism.⁣
  ⁣
     [1moverkalix[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjayd16[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mResults fall on a spectrum from surprising to unsurprising based on the modeled prediction and confidence.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwill4274[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm on the nerd side too, but I was quite surprised. Sampling isn't the only source of error in election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolling - people also change their minds. In this election, people decided who they were going to vote for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhistorically early - the lowest portion of people in the history of exit polls indicated they decided in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mweek before the election. In theory, this effect should reduce the width of the probability distribution, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myet, the polls were off again, in the same direction as they are always off, by a little bit more than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0maverage.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA little scrutiny here is worthwhile. In 2016, for example, the polls were off in part because pollsters⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mweighted the black demographic in proportion to their voting behavior in 2008 and 2012 (when a black⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate was running, boosting turnout). The actual 2016 black turnout looked more similar to 2004 or 2000 -⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mother elections where a black candidate wasn't running. Though I haven't dived into the 2020 polling data,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit wouldn't surprise me if a similar effect were at play.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's also become noticeable harder to do polling. Once upon a time, everybody had a landline, so random⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdialing worked really well. Now, some people have more phones than others, and people are increasingly less⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwilling to talk to pollsters, increasing the error rate.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThese are all important things to talk about - when you dismiss it as "oh yeah, polls are never perfect," you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprematurely shut down the conversation. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. The polls could be better⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand it's important to talk about how.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msaalweachter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is also "what polls directly measure" and "what we infer from them".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBesides the usual adjustments for likely voter models, we also do things like infer how people will vote in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHouse and Senate elections based on Presidential polling, because we do a lot more Presidential polling than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdown ballot, because money.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo one early thing that seems to have happened this year (and again, we are still early in the process to be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmaking final verdicts in "what happened" retrospectives) is that people split their ballot more than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manticipated, which means that the inferences we were making about down ballot races based on Presidential⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mperformance were off.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo not quite a polling error, but an example of uncertainty that may not have been correctly taken into⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccount in forecasting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mA4ET8a8uTh0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m<< These are all important things to talk about - when you dismiss it as "oh yeah, polls are never perfect,"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou prematurely shut down the conversation. Don't let perfect be the enemy of the good. The polls could be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter and it's important to talk about how.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think the complaint is that here the polls were not just imperfect. They were at best, misleading raising⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mquestions over methodology ( lessons, apparently, not learned in 2016 ), wishful thinking, and their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0musefulness, or, at worst, attempts at influencing desired income.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI can absolutely agree that polling is not an exact science, but now it is twice in a row that polling⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mscience has grossly miscalculated the mood of the nation.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfullshark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat % chance did the polls/forecast give the republicans gaining seats in the house (I actually don't know⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbut from reading pundits it sounds like very little)? I think the interesting thing this cycle is betting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmarkets were pretty much also at odds with pollsters/forecasts on Trump's chances, basically baking in a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpro-trump (R?) polling error. Perhaps there really are issues with some of these forecasts / uncertainty⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mestimates?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msoftwaredoug[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think I only saw projections for Dems retaining control (which was high). I think GOP gaining seats was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0malways in the cards.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it’s interesting too how some of the qualitative predictions (like Sabatos crystal ball) were pretty⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclose to the outcome in the Pres race.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn just about every model, but let's use 538 as the canonical example, there was a reasonable chance for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe Dems to lose seats but a very, very low chance they would lose control. We are looking at a two or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthree standard deviation variance from expectations for loss of control but losing seats was well within⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe range of outcomes that should have surprised no one.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjayd16[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt wasn't that little at all. Eyeballing the 538 graph it was about a 38% chance of Republicans gaining in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe house? Over a one in three chance.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mprojects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mfullshark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHmm looks like 548 gave a 3% chance of R control and betting markets gave about a 15% chance on election⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnight:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.predictit.org/markets/detail/4365/Which-party-wi…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou can also try to work the probability distribution from this betting market and I'm sure they were more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfavorable to R than he was:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.predictit.org/markets/detail/6669/How-many-House…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat's a pretty big discrepancy regardless, did he ever give an explanation as to why he disagreed with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbetting markets so much? Seems like betting markets had a ~ one standard deviation pro Trump/R polling⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0merror baked into their pricing.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlistenallyall[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mif you're a data nerd, how can you NOT be shocked by so many results falling far outside the confidence⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterval (often multiple sigmas), and all in the same direction?⁣
  ⁣
    [1matoav[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell this measures [3mhow many people are willing to admit they would vote for Trump[0m which is not surprisingly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma lower number than people who will vote for him in an unobserved secret vote.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEven if the pollsters are the most neutral nonjudgmental people on earth there will still be a fraction of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe electorate that will (irrationally) shy away from telling them the truth.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis effect is certainly real.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlistenallyall[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUmmm, absolutely not. Pollsters universally stated they either had "adjusted their models" after being⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0membarrassed in 2016, or that the "hidden Trump voter" was a myth (usually combined with "Trump fans won't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshut up about how much they support him"). Poll results were repeatedly presented as forecasts of actual⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melection results.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mxbar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFive Thirty Eights' "snake graph", which hasn't changed since before election day, accounted for poll error⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuccessfully and predicted exactly which states would go blue and which would go red, along with which⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseveral states were uncertain. Some of the uncertains went red, others blue. Florida was the only outlier in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprecisely how red it went.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtibiapejagala[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't get why people care so much about predictions vs actual results in case of presidential elections in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe US. The rules look like they were designed for maximum entertainment and sudden changes. The fact that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myou can win with less votes. When the other person already has 250 electors, but then on the last second you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mflip Florida or Pennsylvania with a few thousand votes and bam! you are the president!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's why people love watching your elections so much. Or maybe also because of the fallout in their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountries.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtsimionescu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're picking the easiest number to misread - the overall "chance of being elected", which doesn't really⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmean anything.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMuch more interesting are the direct results predictions, especially per state where they matter most. Those⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare polls that give a particular result with a +- confidence interval. If the polls were to any extent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompetently done, you expect the result to be well within that margin of error.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe reality though has been that the results have been well outside the margin of error, sometimes multiple⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msigmas from the actual result - that is simply unacceptable for a poll. The only conclusion should be that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolling data can be completely ignored, as it doesn't seem to have any clear relationship with the final⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresults.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIndividual polls were sometimes outside the margin, but collectively the polls were not far off the mark and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcollectively they were within the margin of error. This is why sites like 538 were able to model the various⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moutcomes with some degree of certainty and ONCE AGAIN manage to get results within the range of expected⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobabilities. You really seem to have a hard time understanding both polling and probability and in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparticular the relationship between sample size and error. I suggest a bit more research.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdisgruntledphd2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDude, I really don't get why you're being so gung ho on this. The errors on the individual polls were way⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mout of line with the actual results.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen we regularise these results like 538 or the Economist did, we get [3mslightly[0m better results, but they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere still not particularly accurate.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is a real problem, and not one that we should be ignoring. I gave the polling companies a pass after⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m2016, but that this happened again is extremely concerning.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is why sites like 538 were able to model the various outcomes with some degree of certainty and ONCE[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mAGAIN manage to get results within the range of expected probabilities.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut they were super close to the edges of the intervals. Like the most expected number of electoral votes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor Biden was 380-400, which is not what happened.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou really seem to have a hard time understanding both polling and probability and in particular the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mrelationship between sample size and error. I suggest a bit more research.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPlease don't be dismissive of other people. Many people (including people who do stuff like this every day)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere very surprised by the results. We definitely shouldn't tar and feather the pollsters, but I think it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould be great if we could get an understanding of [3mwhy[0m the polls appear to have been systematically biased.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mphlakaton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think it's more fundamental than numeracy. If the polls suggest there is a ⅔ probability you are going to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwin an election, but you lose, does that mean the polls were wrong? What if the probability was 9/10?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the problem is trying to make sense of outliers and uncertainty, and that, in an election with 150M+⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvariables, you will end up with a result that isn't quite what anyone predicted. In other words: it's not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnumeracy, it's epistemology.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msrtjstjsj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFivethirtyeight's polling averaging model underestimated Trump in [3mall[0m the swing states. Trump wine 2-3⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstates predicted for Biden, and 0 vice versa. States that Biden had a supposedly strong lead in turned out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto be statistical ties in the official vote. The direction bias in the polls (about 20 of 25) is obvious,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit's not symmetric random error.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mTheCoelacanth[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mModeling correlated polling errors is basically what 538's models are all about. They model how far off the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolls could end up being from the actual result based on past elections.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe polls are never 100% accurate. The pollsters have to estimate how many of each type of voter will⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mactually show up to vote and what the response rate for each type of voter was. It is not an exact science.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mphlakaton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo which you then have to ask: 1) were the discrepancies within the margin of error? and 2) to what extent⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare you justified in critiquing the polls based on a sample size of one?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI understand that the voting percentage we saw nationally was within the margin of error that 538⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpredicted, and that the specific configuration of electoral votes we saw was also one of the outcomes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconsidered by the models.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjpttsn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolls should say: “we’re ⅔ confident you will win” and not “there’s a ⅔ probability you will win”. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0muncertainty is epistemological; it’s not describing a stochastic process.⁣
  ⁣
    [1melpakal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGreat comment, agreed. The wonderful books from Nassim Taleb ‘Black Swan’ & ‘Fooled by Randomness’ touch on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthis in a way that forever changed my thinking.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m‘We just can’t predict’.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcratermoon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCouldn't the problem be that polling is just numeromancy dressed up in fancy math?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mironSkillet[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe problem that has appeared again is that without a representative sample of information gathered, it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoesn't matter how fancy your models are, you will not have accurate results. And quantifying how⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munrepresentative your sample is basically impossible to figure out in this situation.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcratermoon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mquantifying how unrepresentative your sample is basically impossible[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYeah, so… numeromancy.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msaberdancer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe they should poll about what the person will vote, but rather what the persons opinions are in general⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand then estimate based on that who will they vote for.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI am betting Facebook or Google would be able to better calculate the outcome than any polling firm. Bring⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min all the data they collect on each internet user, I am sure they can model the likelihood of voting and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhere the user is leaning.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mehejsbbejsk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI am pretty certain Facebook has the data to crunch very accurate predictions in elections large and small.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfullshark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBased on what? I think part of the problem with our politics these days is confusing social media engagement⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m/ metrics (specifically twitter) with national sentiment. Seems like there's a large mass of unobserved⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"silent" Americans out there.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjayd16[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhats even more frustrating is recognizing the population difference in day of voters and mail in votes,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexpecting a "blue shift" as votes are counted, and then watching pundits chime in on Tuesday about surprising⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresults.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs far as I can tell the most surprising result was Trump's popularity among Cuban Floridians.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msrtjstjsj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCubans are anti-Castro Republican. The young generation of pollsters forgot that Cubans aren't just "generic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHispanic".⁣
  ⁣
    [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOnce Biden's team let Trump paint him as socialist I was not surprised to see the Cubanos go Trump (or the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVenezuelans for the same reason) but I will be interested to see some of the breakdowns of the Puerto Rican⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvote in FL and some of the Central American Latino vote in Texas; I am betting there is going to be a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreasonably large gender difference in some of those groups.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwesnerm2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo be fair, we still don't know the loss of votes through mail-in voting. Mail-in voting is more convenient⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhich would likely increase participation, but missing signatures, naked ballots, late or undelivered mail,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0metc can prevent those ballots from being counted.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhen there is a major difference in voting patterns between the two political parties, then polls may not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually be inaccurate. In this case, Democrats chose mail-in voting and Republicans, by and large, chose⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min-person after being directed by the president.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso, some percentage of mail-in ballots may not have reached their destination because of possible election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterference through reduced post office efficiency—in particular, fewer mail sorting machines, lower hours,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeprioritized mails, etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn short, the polls don't take into account election interference in the post office or unsuccessful⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdelivery. If most people from both parties were voting in-person, maybe we might have had more parity between⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe polls and election results.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mVaslo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEverytime I read a comment like this I think of that line from Dumb and Dumber:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“What are the chances of a guy like you and a girl like me… ending up together?”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“Not good”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“Not good like one in a hundred?”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“I'd say more like one in a million.”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“So you're you’re saying there's a chance!”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI know enough about probability distributions and modeling to know you can improve your models to lower that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0muncertainty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd sorry, you are the Lloyd Christmas in this one.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mFuzzwah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs an outsider all I can think is that this is an issue with the US media. The easy story is talking about⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe latest poll. The more difficult, but actually useful story, is focusing on the policies being put forward⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mby each side.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbendmorris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mForecasts give us probability distributions based on historical polling error data.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThey would give you a probability distribution if they were truly random samples. But in reality, response⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrates are very low, and pollsters make up for this using demographic weighting and modeling - so the results⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdon't actually represent any real population, but rather are extrapolated from people who respond onto a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhypothetical population that the pollster thinks is likely to vote. This is why they are spectacularly and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystematically off, more and more over time. It's not just variance.⁣
  ⁣
   [1meinpoklum[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mForecasts give us probability distributions based on historical polling error data.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m… and a lot of assumptions about the supposed underlying probability spaces.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmeroes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou could also fit the same data with "people polled thought they could vote until their vote was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpreferentially suppressed". So the polls will never match outcomes. And that it happened in the same⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdirection two cycles in a row leads credence.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(I do not know why the forecasts are wrong, but I don't see why Parent is at all justified in his statement).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbeervirus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mStatistics can be pretty unintuitive. On top of that, most people have never learned any statistics.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjebronie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFor me the bottomline of the Trump administration is that he has started zero new wars, sparing hundreds of
  [0mthousands of innocent lives. As an outsider I hope that the US will not go back to its foreign military
  [0minterventions.

                                                   [1m▶ 45 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 45 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1manonu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can also tell you that many people in the middle east are sad to see Trump leave. His strong stance on Iran⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand some of the new alliances and shakeups in the region regarding Israel, though possibly done through some⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbrute force, have certainly changed the status quo, possibly for the better.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJust yesterday Trump administration sanctioned Gibran Bassil, a corrupt Lebanese politician who is very close⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith Hezbollah. I hope Biden has the same sense to chase these guys down…⁣
  ⁣
    [1marchagon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCertainly not the Kurds.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mHelloworldboy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn your opinion, is it the responsibility of the US to intervene and spend american lives in every regional⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconflict in the middle east? Democrats hate war until it’s a republican president avoiding it, then they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbecome hawks.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbosswipe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHis strong stance on Iran[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn other words, you just like the side of the war that he picked.⁣
  ⁣
     [1manonu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell, you can't please everyone - you gotta pick a side. Iran's track record of spending money across the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregion to foment wars is quite clear… Are all sides saints in these struggles? - certainly not… But I pick⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe lesser of the evils…⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjeffe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMohammed bin Salman is certainly sad as well.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbenignslime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"don't start wars"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"chase them down and assassinate them"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSee where your hypocrisy lies?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrideontime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWould it reassure you to know that the foreign military interventions never actually stopped?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mtheintercept.com/2020/10/29/trump-yemen-war-civilian…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustinzollars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm 38 and Trump is the first president in my lifetime to not start another war. It is a big achievement.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mehsankia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell he did serve half as long as the others, and we did come pretty close to a few. I don't think it's a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvery good metric regardless though, because it depends hugely on external factors and world politics which⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe President doesn't have as much control over. As war-mongering as Bush may have been, 9/11 was an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexternal force. If something similar would've happened during Trump's presidency on US ground, I have zero⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoubt he would've started another war.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msurge[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIraq had what to do with 9/11? Not the excuse, what did it actually have to do with 9/11, as compared to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msay Saudi Arabia.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe media got mad when Trump wouldn't attack Syria, and said using missiles made him seem Presidential.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMakes you wonder what the media and the rest really want.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtitzer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhich war did Bill Clinton start again?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhich war did Bill Clinton start again?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGenerally, the US/NATO-led interventions in the Balkans, most notably the US-led NATO-Serbia war, after⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexplicit Congressional [3mdis[0mapproval.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThough I suppose those could be excluded since they were interventions in existing conflicts.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mivalm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mKosovo war was US led (not opposing it, but definitely under Clinton)⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAntiImperialist[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHere he boasts that he did want to start many but the Republicans kept blocking him:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=UbUAzGzTh_g[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mgscott[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe tossed a few rockets around [34mjacobinmag.com/2016/10/bill-clinton-al-shifa-sudan-b…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbjoli[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe definitely didn't start it, but there were US missiles landing on at least 3 continents. I was a child⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mat the time, but it was such big news that I still remember two of those occasions.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makhilcacharya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe didn't, and neither did Obama if we're going to give Trump credit for this.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjscohn85[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOr Obama, for that matter?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwhytaka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump assassinated the top general of a sovereign state. He could have easily started WW3.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mspurgu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd more or less on a whim, to the shock of his advisors.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI'm 38 and Trump is the first president in my lifetime to not start another war. It is a big achievement.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you were 4 years old today, Trump [3mstill[0m would only be the second President in your lifetime not to start⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manother war.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe 34 prior years may or may not change that depending on whether you look at starting armed conflict or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstarting US involvement in the conflict.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrandomsearch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not so simple, I think, to say that by avoiding war he saved lives.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe US withdrew from Syria, and it does appear to me that for a moment that were a sense of morality from⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump there, he genuinely did not like the idea that lives would be lost as a consequence of his actions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is commendable, though perhaps something that should have been considered in advance of such a situation⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrather than reactively.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut what was the consequence of not intervening? It created a vacuum, into which stepped many military⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpowers, and many people have died or been displaced. We also have to consider the long-term consequences of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man isolationist foreign policy.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere is a balance to be found between war-mongering and exerting influence to shape the world positively.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mParticularly, you have to avoid leaving a vacuum that can be exploited.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt the least we can say he didn't start an arbitrary new war, and that is a small but significant positive.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlsiebert[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne doesn't have to declare war to wage it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.businessinsider.com/trump-have-bombed-yemen-more…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso he also didn't take Covid seriously, thus helping contribute to hundreds of thousands of people dying?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt didn't have to be a political issue.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdannyw[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolitical administrations are big: failures in some areas don’t nullify successes in other areas.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnoobermin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe did however increase the number of drone strikes and other skirmishes in the middle east and Africa.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmatsemann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAre the lives saved before or after including the hundreds of thousands of covid related deaths?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjebronie[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat moral calculus allows deaths from a pandemic, even if the by-product of negligence and mismanagement,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto be placed on the same moral plane as deaths from bombs, drones, tanks and bullets, or the displacement of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtens of millions of people from the War on Terror, or the slave markets and anarchy that still persist⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mafter the NATO bombing of Libya championed by Hillary Clinton and Samantha Power, or the world’s worst⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhumanitarian crisis from the U.S.-supported bombing campaign of Yemen that began under Obama?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- Glenn Greenwald⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmatsemann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's not about morality, but about responsibility.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjebronie[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump has not created the virus and followed the independent advice of Dr. Fauci. The UK, Spain and Belgium⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(all with the advantage of socialized healthcare) did even worse judging by per capita deaths. So he can't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe that bad. I also think its quite disingenuous to compare his handling of the virus to the suffering and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdeaths caused by wars that only serve to establish economic and power advantages.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjackson1442[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand followed the independent advice of Dr. Fauci[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCare to point out to me where he did this? As far as I can tell, he wants to fire Fauci, has continuously⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdisregarded his advice, and loves undermining him:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.cbsnews.com/news/trump-rally-fire-fauci-chants-a…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* similar, via AP [34mapnews.com/article/trump-threatens-fire-fauci-rift-d…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/25/trumps-du…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.foxnews.com/politics/trump-wears-face-mask-in-pu…[0m (note the date on this one-- 11 july)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.nytimes.com/2020/10/19/us/politics/trump-fauci-c…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mapnews.com/article/00a1dc6f5932c9fe778ee5e9cabacc71[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Syrian proxy war killed 500,000 Syrians. The war in Iraq killed 1 million.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mttt0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople are dying from Covid in every country, regardless of who's in charge and what the approach is. Maybe⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm just crazy, but I really don't think that people would just magically stop dying under Biden.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mben_w[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNew Zealand’s most recent registered Covid death was September 16th: [34mcovid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/nz[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMongolia has zero in total: [34mcovid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/mn[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEven China is doing pretty well, with a current daily rate in the low single digits, compared to the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhundreds to low thousands of the USA and the similarly poor performance of European and South American⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcountries: [34mcovid19.who.int/region/wpro/country/cn[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mamykyta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBottom line or at least some silver lining?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtsimionescu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is good, but counts for very little when he has helped sow the seeds of numerous other wars, especially⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mby rolling back most climate change fights.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mHelloworldboy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is pure aimless, embarrasing reaching⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnewherefordc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe got lucky with foreign policy, and he did start a war against immigrants and people whose skin color is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot white in the USA itself, led by Stephen Miller.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGrakel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEntering the country illegally makes you a criminal. Trump got 40 percent of the Hispanic vote.⁣
  ⁣
     [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLatino vote is currently responsible for almost all of the house seat flips for republicans, especially in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCA.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mookdatnog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mEntering the country illegally makes you a criminal.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you define "criminal" as "any person who has committed a crime", and "crime" as "any illegal act that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcan be punished by law", then yes.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBy that definition, everyone who has ever received a parking ticket is a criminal too, though.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSeems more sensible to reserve this loaded term (in US context) for the violent crimes and property crimes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe FBI releases statistics on.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmseidl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCrossing the country "border" is simply a misdemeanor(like driving without insurance). But if you're a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrefugee there is no "illegal" way to cross. You can cross where ever then once you make it over you can⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mapply for refugee status.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjebronie[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHow high is the death toll, how many cities where obliterated?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mlovecg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCan we have a conversation about broader implications of the increasing power in the public discourse of
  [0mTwitter et al.? I’m no Trump supporter but I do wonder if the tables were turned and Twitter e.g. turned Biden
  [0m’s page into a wall of hidden tweets because of something it disagreed with (there are enough grievances with
  [0mBig Tech from both sides).
  [0m
  [0mDo people think this is isolated (because Trump is, well, Trump) or there’s a broader tendency here?

                                                  [1m▶ 117 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 117 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1msquidfish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYour premise is wrong. Twitter's actions weren't as a result of something it disagreed with. Your⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcomment/thought illustrates one of the REAL root problems … and that is we are living in a state of two⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mapparent states of "factual reality". Unfortunately this is not possible. There is only one set of facts.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUntil we can return to that, we will be repeating similar scenarios.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn other words, there is nothing inappropriate about Twitter putting disclaimers on objectively factually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mincorrect statements.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpeteretep[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am strongly anti-Trump and pro truth and reasonably pro Jack Dorsey and don’t disagree with anything you⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msay except — I’m not sure why Jack Dorsey should get to decide what’s true just because he invented a social⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmedia platform⁣
  ⁣
     [1msystemvoltage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAt some point you're gonna have to trust an [3mauthoritative[0m source. Whether that is APNews or NYT or straight⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrom the government website.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe question of "Who gets to decide the truth" is [3mextremely tiring[0m to refute - someone has always had the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mauthoritative voice is determining what's true and what's not. You're shifting the burden of truth from one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msource to the other until there is no one you can trust.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mStatement: Foo is Bar. [[31m1[0m]⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] Source Baz.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou then need to argue, why does Baz gets to decide what's true or not? This goes on ad-infinitum.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBy asking "Who gets to decide the truth", you're essentially saying "Why should I trust anyone?" and by⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat logic "I cannot trust anyone, so everything must be false." The society's fabric is based on trust in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minstitutions. Whether it is government, an independent news source or whatever.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtehwebguy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mJack didn’t decide what’s true, in fact lies are posted to Twitter by users everyday.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe just decided that these particular lies are too unreasonable for him to help spread them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwan23[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhy would you say that anyone else should decide what's true on his platform? Twitter isn't even so popular⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat you can say it has a monopoly of any sort. There are plenty of alternative services, and no⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msignificant barriers to starting a new one. I guarantee that if the president of the United States was to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msay "From now on I'm only posting on my blog" then that blog would become very popular.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mshadowgovt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI’m not sure why Jack Dorsey should get to decide what’s true just because he invented a social media[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mplatform[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat's the fundamental misalignment of understanding in this era: he doesn't. He gets to decide what his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mplatform hosts and how he spins it. The determiner of truth is, as it has always been, the audience.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbagacrap[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think it's as black and white as you say. "I won the presidency" could, in theory, be a true⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstatement, even if it comes before the counting is complete and we haven't yet determined its veracity.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"There was fraud" could, in fact, be true, even if the evidence to prove it is not forthcoming.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUltimately, Twitter censors things it doesn't think are healthy for its platform. I think that's within its⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrights, but I don't think it's by any means objective.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would expect them to have a team actually doing this in a more principled fashion, instead of Jack Dorsey⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcalling the shot from his ivory tower.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrandomsearch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI’m not sure why Jack Dorsey should get to decide what’s true just because he invented a social media[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mplatform[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA social media platform is a publisher, if it encourages news to be disseminated through its networks then⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit should be held to the same scrutiny.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSome might cry - well this is impossible! I can tweet anything and a stranger can share it, how can I cope⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith that volume etc… well, then you have to choose:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mif you want to be a broadcaster, then you must obey the law and not broadcast propaganda or blatant⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfalsehoods.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you do not want to censor or edit, then you must stop being a broadcaster, that is you must limit the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreach of that material, so that a person may only communicate it to their friend and not further in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msame way as an ordinary conversation in person, by telephone, or text message would work.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbsradcliffe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter doesn't point out what's true. They point out what's under dispute.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrewgs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe's not deciding. Just observing and reacting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThere is only one set of facts.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut what is that set of facts?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTwitter felt no need to censor the Steele dossier for years despite it being a politically-funded piece of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnonsense.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRonanTheGrey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI wonder how you'll feel when they do this to you or someone you care about.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't quite understand the epistemic certainty people have that such weapons will never be turned against⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem, especially when history so dramatically demonstrates the opposite.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mianai[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe entire Twitter platform seems totalitarian and a societal bad. Why would you ever want a billboard for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myour passing thoughts that literally not only can be read by a huge audience but will be read by a huge⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maudience? Oh sure it’s great if you’re promoting something. But there’s clearly a reason beyond basic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprivacy to want your messages only readable by select few.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’ve been out of social media for years and never quite ‘got’ twitter. From the outside, it seems like it’s⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhaving a totalitarian effect on society. What you say will be widely viewed - and “judged.”⁣
  ⁣
    [1mryandrake[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEcho chambers, algorithmic recommendations, and powerful filters all but guarantee multiple realities for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifferent people. If all you see are facts X, Y, and Z, then those facts are as real and true as someone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0melse's facts A, B, and C. I have family members and friends who live in seemingly totally alternate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0muniverses, dominated by [3mwhat I see as[0m conspiracy theories, pseudoscience, and a cultural persecution⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcomplex. But as [3mthey[0m describe it: it's I who live in a media-manufactured alternate reality characterized by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrust in institutions, corruption, and a false belief in science and data.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat everyone is missing is: both universes might as well be correct, to the observer. It's like measuring⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat speed someone is going in two different relativistic frames of reference. You can both be right and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcome up with different numbers. It's a tough problem to solve. We can't solve it by just pointing at the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mout-groups and saying "ha-ha how stupid are they for believing in rubbish!" They are just not going to be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconvinced by someone who believe a totally different set of facts.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mvianneychevalie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI’m sorry but how do you reconcile your second paragraph’s criticism of the coexistence of two factual⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrealities and your last paragraph in which you simply pick the one you happen to personally favor?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtehwebguy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBecause the question was not in good faith in the first place because the exact opposite is actually true:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter has bent the rules to no end in an effort to keep from banning Trump despite his constant breaking⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof the their rules.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAngostura[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think you misunderstand. Its the co-existance of two [3mclaimed[0m factual realities. You simply pick the one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhich is the factual reality, which relies on looking at facts.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf someone says 'the election is rigged', the least they have to do is produce evidence. In the absence of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat evidence, that's not a factual statement.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mData supports one of those two realities. Joe Biden is President-Elect.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat about Twitter/Facebook disclaimers on Palestinian speech? Where do you draw the line?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf Twitter could make money in China would flagging Human Rights Campaign be okay?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou're arguing from a presumption that truth doesn't exist or doesn't/won't matter, and a lot of us⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdisagree with that notion.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrufus_foreman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI do not accept Twitter as my authority on what is objectively factual correct.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowawaylolx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTwitter made plenty of controversial decisions during these days⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/DavidShafer/status/1324537971215863808[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIn other words, there is nothing inappropriate about Twitter putting disclaimers on objectively factually[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mincorrect statements.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNot necessarily inappropriate, but it might be ineffective. I don't know if this has already occurred but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'd bet a great deal of money that those click-through warnings about blatant or dangerous falsehoods will⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecome a badge of honor among twitter conservatives, if they haven't already.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjtdev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWho will watch the watchers?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdaenz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not just Twitter, it's the media in general. When I watch CNBC, and they decide to stop airing the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPresident's presser because he's lying, that says to me that the media believes that they should do the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthinking for me. That says a lot about how they view the public.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe're building a world where "think for yourself" means "defer your thinking to Trusted Sources™", which is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot a world that I support.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEDIT>> s/CNN/CNBC⁣
  ⁣
    [1msk5t[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSome of the networks wisely determined that the speech was unfounded, baseless, and harmful. News networks⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo not need to be a spigot for outright lies and fabrication.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mblub[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople that have a working brain shouldn't care what networks think or determine. Those networks must limit⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthemselves to neutrally reporting the news and let the people make up their minds.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis election has proven that US, but also Western-European media are extremely biased and see themselves⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mas the arbiters of truth. Reading German media I noticed - without exaggeration - that Trump was getting⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworse press than actual real dictators. Mainstream German newspapers had articles where they invited mental⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhealth specialists to speculate on what mental afflictions Trump might be suffering from.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExtremely unethical show from the mainstream media.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mRonanTheGrey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSorry, I want to know what my public servants are saying. How we can we make sure they are serving us if⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir words are being hidden from us?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskinkestek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHere's the problem :⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMost mainstream media has been pushing the well known hoax about "fine people on both sides" being about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhite supremacists for far too long to have much credibility left when wanting to point out others⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munfounded, baseless and harmful lies.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mummonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat are you talking about? CNN aired the president's presser in full without stopping it; I know because I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwatched it live on CNN. Are you mixing up CNN with other networks?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdaenz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy mistake, it was CNBC[[37m0[0m]⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m0. [34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=012BzDoFqiY[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjoshuamorton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUltimately at some point trump won't be president. Should the media continue to show his press conferences⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthen? So that voters can choose which president they listen to, the actual one or the fake one?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmindslight[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe're building a world where "think for yourself" means "defer your thinking to Trusted Sources™", which[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mis not a world that I support.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"defer your thinking to Trusted Sources" is the world we're [3mcoming from[0m. Our incoherent polarization is a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresult of the traditional authorities having been routed around (and then leaning into their own demise).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe've apparently got an awfully long road ahead of us to get to a world where everyone is actually thinking⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor themselves, as demonstrated by how readily blatant lies spread when they're politically and personally⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcomforting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcma[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey should be able to pause throughout and offer analysis or not run it altogether, if they are a news⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0morganization and not a propaganda organ.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mghaff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's always been true of the media in general. The publisher of the NYT presumably said something (years⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mago) to the effect of "We don't give people what they want; we give them what they should have." Arguably⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere are far fewer or more porous gatekeepers today relative to the historic norm—for better or worse.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcblconfederate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCnn is liable for their content though. Twitter isn't⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdaenz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAre you trying to suggest that if a news network interviews someone, and that person lies, the network is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresponsible?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbrown9-2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s hard to think of a realistic example of the type of misinformation that is damaging to our society and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocracy that Joe Biden could post. I think we need to acknowledge the unique threat that Trump is/was and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstop both sides-ing this.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdx87[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe democrats spent the last 4 years saying Trump stole the election by colluding with Russia, and twitter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdidn't take any of that down.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbenlumen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCan anyone actually refute this instead of downvoting it? It's a really important point. Sorry to "both⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msides" it but I also think there's a good chance that if Democrats were making allegations of voter fraud⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit'd be trending, not flagged.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmhh__[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe difference is that there is actually hard evidence and convictions supporting that, as opposed to the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump campaign just making it up as they go along.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mVery poor argument really, think about it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mntsplnkv2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe bipartisan Senate report pretty much confirmed that Russia orchestrated a campaign to benefit Trump.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAt the very least that is the basis for a fair accusation, and of course the eventual impeachment for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfurther improprieties which was bipartisan.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmatsemann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExactly, they only remove false stuff.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlovecg[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s a bit of a stretch but imagine if China bought Twitter for some reason:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJoe Biden: We stand with independent Taiwan. Fact check: This statement is false. Taiwan is part of China.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoes this hypothetical not give you chills?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhavelhovel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNope. Twitter is a product. If it becomes China’s mouthpiece, you can point your browser to a different⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mURL.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjohndevor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Charlottesville Hoax was one that Biden posted, and was very damaging in my opinion.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mredwood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think that while it may seem like a slippery slope at first, it is what we need. I think it's actually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquite similar to the immune system analogy in the comment above. We need to have democratic participants in a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocratic process. Our immune system needs to repel the undemocratic elements in some capacity.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAdmittedly the question becomes how we can in a fair manner judge what ideas in which context can have such a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdangerous impact as to be non-democratic.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe all have to reflect how close fascism and other kinds of ideologies always are just beneath the surface,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand that we are all susceptible of falling on that train it isn't specifically another group that is.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTuringNYC[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the harder problem is not the binary cases but the shades of gray.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWant to ban Nazi's? I wont disagree, most people wont.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWant to ban group X which is fighting with group Y in a tit-for-tat skirmish over decades? How do you decide⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho is right? How do you decide truth?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat about cases where someone has done something bad in response to something bad done earlier? Do you ban⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mone side? The other? Both? Does the side with more political/status power decide who gets banned?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhectormalot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWant to ban group X which is fighting with group Y in a tit-for-tat skirmish over decades? How do you[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdecide who is right? How do you decide truth?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think there is a difference between ‘right vs wrong’ and ‘factually correct vs incorrect’.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPlatforms like Twitter will rarely be in a position to decide right/wrong, because in many opposed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdiscussion both sides will use the platform.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOn the factual correctness, platforms can more easily take a stance in high impact cases. I would assume⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat they’d have out the same warnings on Biden’s Twitter if he had said ‘I won’ on Tuesday.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat leaves a challenge: how do you decide what’s a fact? For example on the vote count. Most outlets say⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe reported figures are fact, but it implies trusting the process of counting and reporting. Removing that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimplied trust means others can take ‘there is fraud!’ as fact just as well.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTwitter seems to use the mainstream media (eg AP predicting the election outcome) as a base of trust (and so⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo I). But I’ve come to realize that once you don’t trust the media, it is easy to believe in another set of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfacts (that are true for you), and suddenly (to you) it seems Twitter is censoring.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI hope people will find and trust each other again.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mTuringNYC[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThat leaves a challenge: how do you decide what’s a fact? For example on the vote count. Most outlets say[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe reported figures are fact, but it implies trusting the process of counting and reporting. Removing[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthat implied trust means others can take ‘there is fraud!’ as fact just as well.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTwitter seems to use the mainstream media (eg AP predicting the election outcome) as a base of trust (and[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mso do I). But I’ve come to realize that once you don’t trust the media, it is easy to believe in another[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mset of facts (that are true for you), and suddenly (to you) it seems Twitter is censoring.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm glad you brought up the case of the election. It is a harder question for social media to arbitrate⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcentrally. For example, "There is Fraud" could be true or false, and certainly [3msomewhere you'll find fraud[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaking the statement both true in fact and false in spirit. Then, there is the dark matter of [3meverything[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mthe newspaper doesnt even cover[0m — US newspapers only regularly cover US news, allies, key areas of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworld, and major events. Imagine a dairy-farmer trade war between two asian nations — unlikely to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcovered, so what is the truth? For that matter, imagine the civil rights of small minorities in the US —⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdepending on the minority group, unlikely to be covered even by major us newspapers.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLet me give you a harder example now. Anything to do spanning two sovereign nations, especially one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minvolving war, civilian casualties, or war crimes. Pick your example: Russia/Ukraine, China/Taiwan,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIndia/Pakistan, Yemen/Saudi Arabia. Both sides will have their national own newspapers which will support⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir own country. Which side does Twitter take?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtwodave[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis reminds me of the episode of Mythic Quest where they decided they wanted to ban Nazis—but then they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstarted asking, "Who else should we ban?" The committee ended up with a horrifyingly-unwieldy list of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhate/predatory groups. They felt it was just too many, so they put them all into a bracket and voted—Nazis⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstill won.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBy the time the meeting was over, the engineers had figured out a way to flag all the Nazis and just moved⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem all to their own instance. Problem solved.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlwansbrough[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is making blatant baseless claims and accusations. That gets you a Twitter timeout. Other people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreceive similar treatment. (Congresswoman Majorie Taylor Greene’s Twitter page is entirely censored because⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mall she does is spread QAnon conspiracy theories.) The solution is to just stop spreading disinformation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mzepto[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe problem with that is that mainstream press outlets such as Bloomberg spread disinformation and [3mdon’t get[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mcensored[0m.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mminimaxir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's recent tweets that were flagged by Twitter weren't disagreements, they were antidemocratic.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrayiner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe story about Hunter Biden wasn’t anti-Democratic. Tabloid fodder, but not anti-Democratic.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskuhn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter didn't block that post for that reason. Also it wasn't on Trump's account, it was the NY Post which⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis, as you say, a tabloid.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs you can see here, he posted about it and there is no warning label:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/13178254844958801…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDidn't it just turn out not to be true?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mummonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat was blocked for privacy violations. And Twitter allowed discussion of the story, just not hotlinks to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe story itself which was publishing stolen private content.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprossercj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCan we not disagree about the value of democracy?⁣
  ⁣
     [1meightysixfour[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWe all live in a society that functions the way it does (for good and bad) because we have some shared⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfoundational beliefs in something like democracy. While I have mixed opinions about digital censorship in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgeneral, it should not be surprising for a (quasi)democratic society that values free speech to silence⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthose in power who would encourage large groups to question those core values.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is especially true since western society regularly tries to interpret and judge intent along with what⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople say, and it has judged that Trump's intent is self-serving and not an honest disagreement, and as a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresult it has deemed it at least somewhat acceptable to censor him.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis isn't some philosophy or political science class. We are a Constitutional Republic which is a fancy⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mway of saying that we are a type of democracy. One which the POTUS swore an oath to uphold.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKephael[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhy is it inherently good? If we import 50 million poor people what do you think would appeal to them? Why⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwouldn't large groups just vote themselves access to other people's wealth? If 51% of people vote to steer⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma ship into an iceberg should this be accepted because of democracy?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDemocracy is a religion, look at Singapore and China and compare them to the West.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mexolymph[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"Disagreements" and "antidemocratic" aren't mutually exclusive categories.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwolfram74[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't know that the /worst/ time to start a conversation about ending the practice of voting for office⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis when you're losing an elected office, but it's pretty bad.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhintymad[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut what gives Twitter the power to dictate what is right and what is wrong?⁣
  ⁣
     [1msquidfish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey didn't dictate what was "right and what was wrong". The put disclaimers on objectively factually false⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstatements.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdbt00[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf he doesn't like it Trump can start his own site where he can say whatever he wants. There's no reason⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter can't moderate his posts however they see fit, and in fact his position as elected official⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshielded him from most normal consequences of his behavior.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mConsider how judges around the country have responded to his campaign's legal filings, it's not like⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter was out on a limb here.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mTheOtherHobbes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt wasn't right/wrong, it was true/false.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere's a case to be made that Twitter has taken on some of the old role of the press by calling out⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mobviously factually incorrect statements.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm all for this. But I'd like to see it formalised in law with criminal penalties for anyone, in any⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mposition of public influence, who wilfully tries to mislead the public.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell they have the platform, so they have the power. But more substantively: by applying universal norms⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msuch as "lying is wrong" they don't have to make [3mmoral[0m judgments, just factual evaluations.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskuhn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFreedom of speech must have limits.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe classic analogy is that a person shouldn't be allowed to shout "FIRE" and thereby cause panic in a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcrowded theater, when there is no such fire. The right of the one person to (falsely) speak is outweighed⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mby the right of the many people present to their own safety.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump saying "I WON THIS ELECTION, BY A LOT!" [[31m1[0m] is clearly equivalent to shouting "FIRE". He has not won⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe election, he does not have more popular votes or more electoral college votes, and he has presented no⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mproof or substantive argument to contradict this narrative.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat Twitter should put a warning label on statements from powerful people that are objectively false is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreally the least they can do. To let Trump spread lies without any comment before now has been wholly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mirresponsible. I wish that Twitter didn't provide a platform for misinformation in the first place.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mtwitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13250998450450718…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKarupan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is Twitter as a company and the people running it choosing what they feel is right or wrong. We can⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mendlessly argue [3mif[0m they should do it, but it is well within their rights to do so anyway.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mLexGray[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI wish Hacker News would do the same… Any lie in the name of "sarcasm" which is not explicitly labeled such⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshould be flagged. There is too much of a chance of translation issues not making it clear that the lie is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mintended for "humor".⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdeanCommie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLiterally the constitution. It's part of their freedom of expression.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmkolodny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUnfortunately Twitter's fact checking is the best solution we have so far. If you have a better idea, go⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbuild it 😊⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgoogthrowaway42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCensoring the elected president is inherently anti democratic.⁣
  ⁣
     [1meertami[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNo it isn't. I'm quite sure you know it isn't.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBeing _unable_ to censor the president is what would be anti-democratic. Only in authoritarian regimes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould a leader be able to force private companies to spread their message.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn a democratic country, you have the freedom to choose what you want to support and not support.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msquidfish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is no democracy on a privately owned platform. Trump can say what he wants, but Twitter absolutely⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhas a choice what, if anything, they allow to be published on their platform.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFWIW, Trump's time on Twitter is winding down. The only reason he hasn't received the ban-hammer from⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTwitter is his unique position as an elected official. January 20th shortly after noon, he will no longer⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexist on Twitter.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbrown9-2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA warning is not censorship.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mremarkEon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthey were antidemocratic.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd "antidemocratic" gets defined by, well, Twitter.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmixologic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTwitter didnt hide Trump's tweets because they disagreed, the hid them because they were unsubstantiated⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfalsehoods, that could have a deleterious effect on peoples faith in the process itself. They would have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhidden Biden's too, if he did something along those lines.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mphendrenad2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHow famous does one have to be to get this special treatment? Or is it just for political candidates?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(I'm firmly in the "Their platform, their rules" camp, so I agree that Twitter CAN do this, I'm really just⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcurious as to why people think they SHOULD).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchris11[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHow famous does one have to be to get this special treatment? Or is it just for political candidates?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe special treatment is placing the warning instead of banning them. But you have to be important enough⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat executives think applying the standard policy to you would be a bad idea.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mx87678r[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIts fascinating. I'd never think the most important person in the world would have their tweets hidden. I'm⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquite impressed with how they did it. Though if I really liked Trump I could feel hard done by.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you haven't see its worth a look. [34mtwitter.com/realDonaldTrump[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mskywal_l[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPlease give us an example of a Tweet from Trump that was removed and that was just remotely debatable.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlovecg[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are a few parts to your question. Can I find anything salvageable in the flagged statements that he⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmade on Twitter? Definitely not, I’m pissed off we elected someone who thinks it’s OK to say things like⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat in public. I think Colbert said it best: Trump doing those things puts an eternal stain on the Office⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof Presidency; now among the things Presidents of the US have done, being subjected to Internet moderation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis one of them. This was unimaginable merely a decade ago. Trump forced Twitter’s hand here, but now we live⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min a world where that precedent exists.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAm I excited that We the People are delegating the decisions what speech to amplify or not to fickle private⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompanies? It’s hard for me to get behind that. Something just feels very wrong about this idea.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskywal_l[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese companies are as important as we consider them to be.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd just a few reminders: 1. His messages are still visible. 2. Even if they were not, he could still⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeliver his message in a thousand different ways, I mean he's constantly over the phone with Fox'n'Friends.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSince America exists, you've always had people commenting and criticizing what elected officials are doing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand saying. Do you want to shut twitter's right to free speech? Do you realize that you are taking a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mposition of: "A member of government should not be questioned by a private party". Do you realized how⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfearful people who disagrees with you can be by hearing this argument?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe guy is literally going for a power grab. "Stand up and stand by"… I really think that those who are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworried about democracy because of what Twitter is doing are focusing on the wrong thing here. And to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhonest, I find it harder and harder to believe they do it in good faith… That is what I am worried about.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mfl0wenol[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe president is human and a civilian just like the rest of us shlubs. Don't forget that.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mChrisClark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mProven lies that are trying to kill the democratic election process should be hidden by default.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not even censorship, they are all there still and anyone can read them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut proven lies need to be called out. Freedom of the press allows us to call out politicians on their lies.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBroader tendency for sure, look at the Alexandra Ocasio tweet asking for a list of Trump "enablers". The⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfuture is scary⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcrocodiletears[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy Facebook account was recently restricted from 'complex entities interactions' a week before the election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0muntil November 28, with no explanation as to why, and an error thrown whenever I click a link to contest the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrestrictions (for lack of a better term).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThus far, it seems to mean that I can't follow, comment, post, or dm on/with groups or facebook pages. I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcannot create events, pages, or new groups.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can only post to my timeline, dm my friends, or comment on my friend's posts.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI do not post, or comment on Facebook, though I am a member of a number of politically engaged and activist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfacebook groups on the fringes for the purposes of having access to on the ground primary sources.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI have a number of friends active on the right who received a similar set of restrictions, ending on the same⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mday. They're used to these kinds of restrictions, comment often, and thought nothing of it. This is typical⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof facebook to them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMore unexpectedly, and in my opinion a disturbing development in an already unsettling moderation regime, a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnumber of second-order contacts (friends of friends and coworkers) who work as left and progressive⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0morganizers/activists (not liberals, progressives and leftists) also received the same levels of restriction.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis was accompanied by the removal of quite a few fringe activist and political pages, the most infamous⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhich comes to my mind being 'God Emperor Trump', a large meme page that had significant reach during the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2016 election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think this is circumstantially unique. This is a preview. Assuming recounts and court challenges go⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden's way, I believe we're looking at a future where social media uses the tools they've developed over the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpast four years to enforce a bipartisan moderate consensus over their user-bases, restricting any populist,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrevolutionary, or potentially dangers speech or users that might produce it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe activist left has largely been shielded by its circumstantial alliance with the DNC establishment and its⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mallied institutions, given their mutual opposition to the Trump administration.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe populist right has partially been shielded by the implicit threat of Trump's executive authority.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLibertarians (I'm including the Boogaloo movement, and many lockdown protests under this umbrella) have had⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mno such cover, and in my limited experience I've seen entire networks of users and pages been scrubbed off⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe platform over the past two years with little fanfare, and largely as a product of their affiliations. I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbelieve their experience will be mirrored on the left and the right going forward.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtim44[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe censorship is getting scary. I'm recently permabanned from reddit for being too progressive. I shouldn't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave criticized mayor Pete for his takes on M4A on the politics sub. Both ends of the spectrum are being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdeplatformed.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcrocodiletears[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is tangential, but I'm quite suprised at the personality cult that's developed around Buttigieg. It's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mquite small, but nonetheless impressive for someone so milquetoast. I've always dismissed him as a gay Beto⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mO'rourke, but clearly there's something I've missed.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjasonvorhe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe way you phrase it is as intellectually dishonest as it gets. Twitter didn't hide tweets they disagreed⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith, they hid tweets from a public official who cast doubt on the election process with no shred of evidence⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand acted in a responsible manner. With additional security on his account, there's are also additional⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresponsibilities and since he didn't care, they had to interfere. They didn't delete anything, they didn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mremove anything, they just made it perfectly clear that there's no proof to his allegations. That's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresponsible behavior and something that should have come way sooner.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mim3w1l[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI definitely think this is the future. And other countries are wise to take note, and consider very carefully⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe threat Twitter poses to their sovereignty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's exceedingly likely that American liberals will tell you what to do, and pat themselves on the back.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mntsplnkv2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's a ridiculous and absurd stretch to say that Twitter poses any threat to American sovereignty but Trump⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclaiming an election he lost isn't a threat to that same sovereignty.⁣
  ⁣
   [1madrianmonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mStatements fall on a spectrum between pure opinion and incontrovertible, undisputed fact. Somewhere along⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthere is a threshold where it's no longer about agreeing with something.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'd say it's impossible to do a perfect job of finding that threshold, but I think Twitter has done a decent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjob of it with Trump's tweets.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut yes, as it stands right now, it is in their hands and we are relying on them to do a good job of it when⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey decide to.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the shift to watch will be whether Trump's tactic of out-and-out lying takes deeper roots,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparticularly among Republicans or more broadly.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtwodave[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI wonder how much public opinion was impacted by Trump's tweets (one way or the other). I also wonder the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmagnitude of the impact of Twitter's actions. I sort of also wonder why some public figures are subject to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfact checking and others are not.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCensoring really ought to be driven by the individual, not the platform. By getting involved in censoring⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcertain parties, Twitter is implying here (whether intentionally or not) that its platform is a source of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtruth. That's a horrifying notion on its own. If anything my trust in Twitter (what little I had) is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbasically gone. It has nothing to do with politics. The minute a social media platform starts meddling with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0muser content (especially the content of public figures, especially especially the current POTUS, whoever he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis), I no longer believe anything I see on the platform.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's hard enough to know what to believe without questioning the authenticity of people's statements.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcblconfederate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt feels like twitter staff are (ab)using the popularity of its users to promote their own agenda. That is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot right and will probably have implications about their relationship with Article 230 (which IIRC assumes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"good faith"). It's not fair to other biased media, which [3mare[0m legally liable for what they publish.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJoshTriplett[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.techdirt.com/articles/20200531/23325444617/hello…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcblconfederate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis is what i m talking about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2many action voluntarily taken in good faith to restrict access to or availability of material that the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mprovider or user considers to be obscene, lewd, lascivious, filthy, excessively violent, harassing, or[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3motherwise objectionable, whether or not such material is constitutionally protected; or[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjtitor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe trend where large Internet platforms control political content propagation will intensify, and prevail in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe end. Elites all over the world will not easily cede control of important narratives, which they wield in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtraditional media (news paper, TVs). For me, deleting COVID misinformation is ok. Blocking Trump's tweet on⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe election results is a bit more dubious (why not leave it to the people to judge, which are given the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright to vote anyway?). And we will see more of these in the coming years.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrobertlagrant[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think Jack Dorsey would do that to a Democratic candidate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mguscost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf said candidate was also challenging the existing power structures in this country, they would.⁣
  ⁣
     [1moezi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCitation needed. A term like power structures is just lazy thinking.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrecursive[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNeither do I, but I think that's because Democratic candidates for some reason don't have the same penchant⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor misinformation and incitement.⁣
  ⁣
   [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMaybe we should have federally refulated aocial media then, or the social media version of PBS.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThen we as a democracy could decide via legislation and law what is approrpriate and what is not.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcrimethink352[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOf course it's not isolated. It's clear that the left wants the power to censor factual information that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mundermines their narratives, like crime statistics, and especially interracial crime statistics. That's why⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey hate 4chan so much.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mguscost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhatever their justification, it is obvious that there is absolutely going to be a tendency to do this with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3manyone[0m who is even half as much of an outsider as Trump. The notion that these watchmen are simply protecting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mus from “lies” is a naive delusion. And yes, regardless of your politics, that is not a good thing for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcitizens.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf the 'outsider' does nothing but lie, threaten, and harass opponents then I think Twitter will continue to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo it job and suppress the assholes. If you happen to be a political ally of the asshole then I guess it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msucks to be you.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mguscost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis kind of bullying (from either side) leads directly to war.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m“The First Amendment is first for a reason. Second Amendment is just in case the First one doesn't work⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mout.”⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m- Chappelle⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdeanCommie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"because of something it disagreed with" is a mischaracterization of "because of provable falsehoods⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdangerous to public safety, and democracy".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA President with a massive angry following with guns, tweeting falsehoods about the lack of integrity of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melectoral process (And I don't mean the vague things, I mean the explicitly false things like his party not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhaving access to view vote count processes, which they do) is about as close as you can get to yelling "FIRE"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min a crowded theater on the internet.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot only is it Twitter's prerogative to act accordingly, I'd go further and say it is their ethical duty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd yes, if Biden did the equivalent "from the other side", Twitter would act in exactly the same way.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msdfhbdf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mInteresting fact I noticed: If Biden is to take the presidency after the Electoral Collage voted that would
  [0mmake him the oldest president to take office yet, also interesting that wikipedia already marked Biden as
  [0mpresident-elect [[37m0[0m].
  [0m
  [0m[[37m0[0m]: [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_presidents_of_the_Unit…[0m

                                                   [1m▶ 28 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 28 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mamyjess[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would also make him the only person from the Silent Generation [[37m0[0m] to ever be elected President of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnited States. As Biden is at the very youngest end of the generation, he will likely remain the only one.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] Using the Strauss-Howe definitions of generations [34mwww.lifecourse.com/about/method/the-generational-con…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEdit: Silents were born 1925-1942. Just thought I should mention it here so you don't have to click the link.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden was born in November 1942, so he's just before the cutoff.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmFixman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's chilling how nobody born between 1924 and 1942 (or 1946 if Biden doesn't count yet) became the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPresident or even tbe candidate of any major political party during a US election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe people who grew up during the Great Depression had less opportunities? Or maybe baby boomers born⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mright after the war overcame the silent generation in influence by numbers.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mamyjess[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think part of it was also how long the G.I. Generation stuck around. At the time when you'd expect to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstart seeing Silent presidents, Reagan won election as the then-oldest person to have ever been elected⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpresident and was popular enough he had two terms and got his VP elected afterwards. If Reagan's first term⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhad flopped (or maybe even if he'd never run at all, though that's really speculative), we would've gotten⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPresident Mondale in 1984. Or we might have seen a Silent as early as 1980 if Ted Kennedy won his primary⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchallenge.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think we're starting to see a similar phenomenon with Generation X being pushed out by long-lived Boomers⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand even a couple of Silents, but at least we had Obama (born 1961, so he barely counts) in between⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBoomers.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWith that said, it's not for lack of trying that we haven't had a Silent president. Aside from the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maforementioned Mondale and Kennedy's attempt, we've also had Michael Dukakis and John McCain as major-party⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnominees, the only third-party candidate who had a chance in Ross Perot, plus Bernie Sanders was a major⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcontender and runner-up for the Democratic nomination twice.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlegolas2412[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA few minutes of wikipedia-ing and found Walter Mondale, born 1928.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2malso interesting that wikipedia already marked Biden as president-elect[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt has long been standard to refer to candidates as President-Elect once one the results of the election of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melectors is reasonably clear. One might argue that it is not technically accurate until after the Congress⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtallies the votes of the Electoral College and announces the result of that tally, but it is the long⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0maccepted usage and the use of it to refer to Biden at this point is in no way noteworthy or a deviation from⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhat long-established practice.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mBluestein[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFurther, Biden will be older when entering the office, than the next-older, Reagan, was when -leaving- the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moffice.-⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso, of course, Kamala Harris makes history as first woman of color elected US vicepresident.-⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden has already changed his Twitter bio to "president-elect": - [34mtwitter.com/joebiden[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mDuskStar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFirst woman of color, but not first "person of color" - [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Curtis[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAssuming that "significant non-european ancestry" is the determining line here.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is inaccurate. The next older upon entering office, after Joe Biden, will have been Donald Trump.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden: 77 years, 353 days⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump: 70 years, 220 days⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mReagan: 69 years, 349 days⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjunon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFuther, Donald Trump's wikipedia page is currently fully-locked, a rare classification for a wikipedia page.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden is currently only under extended-confirmed protection.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOf course this is necessary but one of my favorite pasttimes is to look at vandalism changes in the history,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand I would have loved to see some of the stuff people came up with on either side.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcesarb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you look at the protection log and follow the links, the request which led to that full protection is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minteresting: "Temporary full protection: The article is going crazy with everyone trying to add their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mversion to the lead. There is so much edit conflicting it took me eight tries to bring the article back to a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mneutral version. Would anyone consider a few hours of full protection to let things calm down?"⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjunon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSounds about right, I might have a gander just because - bound to have some gold nuggets of crazy to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mperuse!⁣
  ⁣
   [1m2ion[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is actually, in any jurisdiction, what I take the most issues with: presidential systems headed by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpractically very soon-to-be-dead men. I have changed with age; surely the flexibility, inventiveness, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpower an individual can constructively wield on his own is highly impacteded by age. Half-dead men should⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mretire, not take office, or consult, at the utmost.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis fact is more illustrative of whatever divide the US is under than anything else. It's generational⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconflict. And face it, the American president is [3mnot[0m of any generation that has yet to build their future. A⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwaxy president who is full of thought and reflection might not be the wise emperor who is still mighty enough⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto control the backstabbing theatre that is politics.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEffectively, in terms of foreign policy, I think nothing, absolutely nothing will change. From a non-American⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpoint of view, Trump did nothing too different from what Clinton would have done, and a Biden will not do⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomething too different from what a Trump would do. Or do what he is told, for that matter.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m_iyig[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOther countries take different approaches. China’s Communist Party requires leaders to retire at 68 (unless⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou are Xi Jinping):⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2017/03/02/world/asia/xi-jinping-chi…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwalrus01[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUndoubtedly a significant consideration for VP choice (Harris in this case) is the statistical likelihood⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat a 78-82 year old might pass away from natural causes some time in the next four years.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdehrmann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI didn't like how both VP candidates dodged that question in the debates. It's a legitimate concern.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mntsplnkv2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhy?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe concession plan is clear, and everyone knows the vice president of whoever wins. I don't see the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mproblem.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnabla9[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere will be three, no, four living ex-presidents younger than the current president, Biden (77).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBarak Obama (59) Bill Clinton (74) George W. Bush (74) edit: Donald Trump (74)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrufus_foreman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThree US presidents born in a 4 month period in 1946.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[edit] - You have to be 35 or older to be president, which for people born in 1946 would be 1981. Clinton⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas president for 8 years, Bush for 8, Trump for 4, so 20. For the majority of the time since people born in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1946 were eligible to be president, they have been.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlettergram[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou forgot Donald Trump (74?)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkzrdude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBill Clinton looks the most frail out of those (including Biden)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mafiori[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLosing really did a number on Trump…⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbrudgers[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAn article on the steps Wikipedia [3mwas[0m taking two weeks ago around the election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.wired.com/story/wikipedias-plan-to-resist-electi…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis suggests that experienced editors have reached consensus regarding the likely outcome of the election.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mJap2-0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt looks like that page has gone back and forth a few times and is leaning toward not listing Biden yet.⁣
  ⁣
   [1manonu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd he would be 85 by the end of a second term, in theory. Not incredibly reassuring numbers.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmytailorisrich[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis almost certainly makes him a one term President. Harris is the one to watch for 2024.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mKye[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJust to add for the curious, the wiki on "President-elect of the United States"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/President-elect_of_the_United_…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjungletime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe votes for Biden are endless. I've been watching TV and that much is clear. Just when you think they're⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdone. More is to come. He must keep them in his crypt somewhere.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrandomsearch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m[This has been hinted at in various threads but I'm stating it clearly here]
  [0m
  [0mA fundamental cause of political polarisation is social media. Tech platforms incentivised by advertising to
  [0mincrease engagement have (probably mostly inadvertently) become manipulation engines that have destabilised
  [0mdemocracies.
  [0m
  [0mI think at this moment in time the tech community should take pause to consider what we have done. We started
  [0mwith heady ideals and hopes, especially for the internet, but we have veered a long way from that vision.
  [0m
  [0mAs engineers, we have great power in this world. For the foreseeable future, our skills will be highly in
  [0mdemand and shape the future of humanity, in every area of society - from finance to health, from entertainment
  [0mto politics.
  [0m
  [0mIf you work for a social media company, or a search engine, or any company that is reliant on adtech or high
  [0mengagement for its income, then I implore you to think long and hard about how your actions may have
  [0mcontributed to bringing us to this point, and whether it is possible to change the course of your organisation
  [0mor it would be better to leave.
  [0m
  [0mMore positively, the large social media networks are now entrenched corporations, and they have lost the
  [0madvantages that startups confer. With sufficient imagination and hard work there are many opportunities to
  [0mdisrupt those companies with the compelling mission of making the world a better, not a worse, place.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mehsankia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI absolutely agree this is an issue, but I honestly think it even transcends social media algorithms. Well,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor one thing, the news media is just as much to blame, pushing clickbait and stories that induce the most⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrage. The next step is, regardless of social media sites, people tend to share said stories far more, so it's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma vicious circle. I think any large connected social media site, regardless of the algorithms, will lead to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma similar result.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mThorncorona[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHint: 'Personalized' algorithms simply mean tailored to one's biases. As in Google will show liberals only⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mliberal articles, and conservatives conservative articles.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrandomsearch[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think there's an important distinction between recommendation algorithms, which is how I'd describe what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou're referring to, and _algorithms designed to maximise engagement_.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRecommendation algorithms try to provide content that you'll enjoy, like new movies to watch.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEngagement algorithms will try to find content that keeps you engaged, even if that means enraging you. They⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon't just exploit biases, rather they exploit what triggers you.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mMahn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd therein lies the problem, algorithms can't tell if you click and spend time with something because you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0menjoy it, or because it enraged you.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbfieidhbrjr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt's amazing. My friends on the left think the only reason for voting trump is racism, and friends on the
  [0mright think the only reason for voting biden is socialism.
  [0m
  [0mWhere did all the intellect go?
  [0m
  [0mThe social dilemma documentary I think is very useful. It feels like social media bubbles are a large
  [0mcomponent, although of course there have been many contentious elections in the past.
  [0m
  [0mBeing centrist I can relate to parts of both sides but my experience is they both dislike centrists.

                                                  [1m▶ 118 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 118 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mFooBarBizBazz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah, there's a lot of really dumb straw-manning going on.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA good phrase I ran into is "strategic empathy". Like Sun Tzu teaches:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0menemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSadly, humans seem allergic to this kind of thinking. As Orwell writes in "Notes on Nationalism":⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"The nationalist does not go on the principle of simply ganging up with the strongest side. On the contrary,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhaving picked his side, he persuades himself that it is the strongest, and is able to stick to his belief⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meven when the facts are overwhelmingly against him. Nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEvery nationalist is capable of the most flagrant dishonesty, but he is also – since he is conscious of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mserving something bigger than himself – unshakeably certain of being in the right."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe smart (if mistaken) reasons to vote Trump were always trade and the Democratic Party's abandonment of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLabor.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd Republicans, on the other hand, who think Biden is a socialist are delusional.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's possible, though, that people aren't as dumb as they seem. For an individual, pretending not to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mempathize with the opposition is probably safer in a tribalized society. So perhaps that's what we're really⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwitnessing.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJoeri[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThanks for the mention of Orwell’s notes on nationalism. I just read it and it is remarkably relevant, even⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mif the movements used as examples aren’t.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a European it was incomprehensible to me why anyone would vote for trump as I had only received the straw⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mman version of Trump through my local media. But when traveling the U.S. early 2016 I had the good fortune⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof spending a few hours on a bus with two trump voters and having them explain their hopes for a trump⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpresidency, and it no longer seemed irrational. The hope that having no loyalties or obligations to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolitical powers that be he could actually have policies which benefited regular people seemed reasonable.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is a fair argument to be made his actual economic policies have indeed mostly benefited Americans, so⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msomeone voting just based on the economy would not be irrational in choosing Trump.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mStill, he’s Donald Trump, and a bully. I don’t think I could ever be convinced to ignore all the other stuff⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto the degree of voting for him. I can understand those who outright dismiss him and anyone aligned with him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwithout seriously trying to engage with their arguments.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthe Democratic Party's abandonment of Labor.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Democratic Party didn't abandon labor. Labor and the electorate abandoned the Democratic Party. Starved⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor funding and votes, the Democratic Party moved right and embraced neoliberalism. Mondale was pro-labor.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe was crushed by Reagan in 1984.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_strategy[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Leadership_Council[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_United_States…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/1984/01/22/magazine/labor-s-gamble-o…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthingsgoup[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s not Biden who is considered the socialist, it’s Kamala, and the concern by the right is that Biden - on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhis way in - is already on his way out.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe term socialist had no meaning in the US. It's just slander from the right and has been for over a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcentury.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn any case, Biden was called a socialist before he picked his VP. e.g.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mmobile.twitter.com/realdonaldtrump/status/1241717700…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway63456[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't believe that Trump is a racist. I believe that Trump is a Trumpist. I believe that he lacks the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcapacity to hold any real beliefs outside of his own self-interest, even twisted and depraved ones. He⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpanders to racists, along with other segments like Evangelicals, not because he believes in their cause but⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause they give him what he wants: praise and power. But to think that Trumpism is about race is deeply,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtragically, [3mmissing the point[0m.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf we want to understand and get to the root of what just happened for the past 4 years, the left needs to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstep back and seriously reconsider its assumptions.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcodydh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI disagree wholeheartedly. You’ve described Trumpism in terms of “what goes on in Donald Trump’s head.” I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthink very few people ultimately care about this. Instead, most people interpret “Trumpism” as what his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfollowers believe. And I can see little argument that there’s a much stronger thread of white primacy in his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstatements and followers than anyone else.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlongtimegoogler[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTotally agree.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnobodyandproud[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAny nuance is met with vitriol.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mExplaining why taxes, redistribution of wealth, and allowing government to oversee certain services is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually beneficial to a market is a sure fire way to get called out as a communist and radical leftist.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPointing out why historically, conservatives were deadset against abortion —in order to have a more⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproductive discussion using pure history, not Bannon-style nonsense—is met with a absolute refusal to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0macknowledge the evidence.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHaving a nuanced view makes no friends and just generates suspicion by all sides.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSecretly, I like it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhornd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhy have conservatives been historically against abortion?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdefen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey haven't been, in the long view. Historically abortion was a Catholic issue, and sometimes liberal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mProtestant[[31m1[0m]. It generally wasn't an issue for Evangelicals, who were also mainly on the political left.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThen in the late 60s the teenage son of a popular Evangelical pastor/author[[33m2[0m] became concerned for the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrights of the unborn, convinced his father to take that message to the masses, it worked, and Republicans⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfigured out that it would be a way to build a new coalition.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you look at the extreme countercultures of the 60s, you see one side who hated "the system" that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mproduced mass affluence, but loved the fruits of it. The other side loved the system, but hated the fruits.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo one way to look at it is as a sort of political shibboleth indicating that you were definitely on one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mside and not the other.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mbooks.google.com/books?id=cf5RFWIMJugC&pg=PA42&lpg=P…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Schaeffer[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcamel_Snake[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey haven't. It's a political alliance with the anti-abortion crowd. The 1976 Republican party platform⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas the first to include a stance on abortion.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnobodyandproud[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’ve answered elsewhere, but note that conservativism isn’t one and the same as the Republican party; nor⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis it the same as the evangelical crowd.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut tl;dr; answer: Modern abortion has its roots with a founder who was also strong advocate for eugenics.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mShe was a product of her time and really believed she was advocating for improvement of society, but the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mideas took a dark turn.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe only notable opposition were from the conservative religious circles; but as noted even there the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrecord is spotty.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mStill, credit where credit is due.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhether more modern evangelicals are rooted from the same opposition is irrelevant.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMy friends on the left think the only reason for voting trump is racism […][0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhile saying the "only" reason is too strong, there have a number of studies showing it was a key factor:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1017/S1049096518000367[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1177%2F0002716218811309[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1086/700001[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1080/17457289.2018.1441844[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1080/07393148.2017.1378296[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1093/poq/nfx048[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* PDF: [34macme.highpoint.edu/~msetzler/Why_Did_Women_Vote_for_D…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mroenxi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMy friends on the left think the only reason for voting trump is racism […][0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhile saying the "only" reason is too strong, there have a number of studies showing it was a key factor[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not going to read all those links, so hopefully you ordered them by compelling-ness.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA racial demographic agreeing politically is different from racism. The black vote is fairly united on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopinion that Democrats offer a better option for black people. That isn't classed as 'racists voting for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdemocrats'. Ditto hispanics. It follows that whites are voting as a racial block doesn't mean that whites⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare racist. And if they think Democrat policies noticeably favour blacks and hispanics then they are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobably right, because that is what the blacks/hispanics think.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe study is fine, but it doesn't support "they're voting that way because they are racist".⁣
  ⁣
    [1mernst_klim[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mCN was measured in Wave 4 using a five-item version of the Collective Narcissism Scale (Golec de Zavala et[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mal. 2009; Golec de Zavala, Cichocka, and Bilewicz 2013). The items were: “If the United States had a major[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msay in the world, the world would be a much better place,” “The United States deserves special treatment,[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3m” “It really makes me angry when others criticize the United States,” “Not many people seem to fully[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3munderstand the importance of the United States,” and “I will never be satisfied until the United States[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mgets the recognition it deserves.” All items used a seven-point scale ranging from strongly disagree (1)[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mto strongly agree (7).[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI dunno, that doesn't sound sound to me, and people tend to draw bold conclusions from such matters.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've seen quite a lot of such papers, proving that "conservatives are knowing liberals better than vice⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mversa" or similar, but diving into methodology it seems like people are trying to exacerbate what the data⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msays.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople voting for Trump are regular blue collar workers loosing from globalization. Hence they want walls. I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon't think there is any good in demonizing them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdonmcronald[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mPeople voting for Trump are regular blue collar workers loosing from globalization. Hence they want[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwalls. I don't think there is any good in demonizing them.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI agree with this, but there’s a bit that I don’t understand about their mindset. If they think they’ve⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlost their job to an immigrant who’s willing to work harder for less money, how does less government⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minvolvement make it better? You can’t just ban immigrants and solve the problem because the real problem is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma system that allows exploitative labor practices. By American standards those immigrant workers are also⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgetting a bad deal and the people doing the exploiting aren’t going to stop unless someone forces them to.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think the reason you see people latching on to Trump is because they think all politicians want to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaintain the status quo and they think Trump will break it. I understand the sentiment, but Trump didn’t⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreally DO anything to help them. All he seems to do IMO is assign blame and talk about how things should⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe. It’s easy to say “we have the greatest plan” or “everyone should live in a mansion”, but it’s really⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhard to actually have the greatest plan and to implement it or to build everyone a mansion.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s really sad because I think middle class America is being disenfranchised and there’s a near majority⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof people who’ve been convinced it’s the fault of poor, “lazy moochers” rather than the wealthy capturing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand hoarding all of our productivity gains over the past 40 years.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think there should be common ground in wanting to get rid of the part of the government that serves the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minterests of the wealthy at the expense of the middle class. It’s just a matter of understanding the sides⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare wealthy vs everyone else, not right vs left.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mPeople voting for Trump are regular blue collar workers loosing from globalization. Hence they want[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwalls. I don't think there is any good in demonizing them.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNoted:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mOf course, these two explanations are not mutually exclusive. Both may have some validity. Moreover, as[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mMichael Tesler has argued, economic anxiety and discontent among white voters in 2016 appear to be[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mclosely connected to racial resentment. His analysis of survey data indicate that many white voters,[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mespecially those without college degrees, believe that racial minorities and immigrants have been favored[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mby government policies while their own communities have been neglected, especially during the Obama[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3myears (Tesler 2016b). The Trump campaign explicitly connected these issues by arguing that illegal[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mimmigrants were taking jobs away from American citizens and reducing wages for American workers.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTo sort out these competing explanations, we test the hypothesis that Trump’s surge among white working[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mclass voters, compared with previous GOP presidential candidates, was due to his explicit appeal to white[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mracial resentment and ethno-nationalism. Thus, Trump’s campaign may have helped to politicize these[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mattitudes, identifying them with a political party, especially among less educated white voters who tend[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mto be less attentive to political campaigns and therefore less aware of differences between candidates on[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mracial and other issues (Tesler 2016c). To test this hypothesis, we can compare the correlations between[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mscores on the racial resentment scale and relative ratings of the Republican and Democratic presidential[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mcandidates on the feeling thermometer scale over time among white voters with and without college[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdegrees.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mdoi.org/10.1177%2F0002716218811309[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mphobosanomaly[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDefinitely appreciate your contribution to the discussion.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJust a suggestion.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe consider reducing the number of links, and posting the citation adjacent so we can see the title of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe paper, and what journal it was published in before clicking. A brief tl;dr from the abstract would be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmagnificent as well.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOtherwise I'm just sort of taking on faith that whatever you posted will be worth the time to click on, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere's like 7 links there, so I'm just not gonna.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtick_tock_tick[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's clearly why he did so much better with minorities this time then 2016 right?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkombucha111[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd people can't vote against their interests, be mislead or be straight up wrong. Isn't that just falling⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor demagoguery in the end? It's not like the electorate is truly informed in the US.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe people who voted for Trump are not all racists. But the racists probably did vote for Trump.⁣
  ⁣
     [1miheartnetwork[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mVoters vote against their own self-interests all the time. It does not invalidate the OP's point.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mentire-name[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhere did all the intellect go?[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think that's the key point. Decades of undermining the education system, plus many other problems such as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"big money lobbying" is likely what led to such extremisms.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou know… the key metric of "education" used to be "what percentage of your population can read and write".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBy that measure, the US is fairly "educated". However, just like the value of each dollar goes down as the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meconomy grows (i.e. inflation), I think it's important to apply a similar idea to education; just as the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0maccess to information increases, the value of _only_ being able to read and write is no longer enough to be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconsidered as "educated".⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjimbob45[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can’t seriously be arguing that everyone has been made [3mso stupid[0m by the education system as evidenced by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe fact that they don’t agree with you. This is akin to categorically sweeping away the wisdom of the last⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgeneration because of leaded gasoline.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNew rule: if you’re going to disparage the other side and call them stupid, you have to find two nice things⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto say about their side.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe US education system is failing, pretty badly. This is not a new grievance. Whether that causes or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcontributes to is probably unproven, but it's hard to think it doesn't.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt doesn't mean that all trump supporters are uneducated. But they do have a tendency to be uneducated. All⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe trump supporters I know are in that camp either for their extremist/nazi views, or due to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmisinformation, or for financial reasons. Those first two groups highly favor the uneducated.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mentire-name[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLet me rephrase. One attribute the education system should provide students is the ability to think⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcritically. By being able to think critically, a person should be able to have the capacity to see and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munderstand the arguments on both sides. From there, a healthy debate can commence on which policy is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbetter.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mKeep in mind my previous comment is in response to the original post, which talks about people on both⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msides having the "extreme mindset", i.e.:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's amazing. My friends on the left think the only reason for voting trump is racism, and friends on the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mright think the only reason for voting biden is socialism.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIndeed, maybe I was wrong in suggesting that the poor education system is what caused this issue. But⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregardless, the ability to think critically is an important attribute, and I do believe extremisms are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcaused, in part, by the lack of it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mehsankia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's not about them agreeing, but when people can't understand basic statistics or when people no longer⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meven believe science, scientists and the scientific method, then yes it is the education system. Do you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthink it's a coincidence that there's a significant gap between how educated people are and which party⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthey vote for?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjfim[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not sure that has changed that much. There's always been a component of politics that's tribal in nature,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand it takes a lot to overcome that inertia. It's not unlike sports, where people will root for the local⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mteam, even though there's not much that's local about the team other than the name.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou can see that behavior for example around the ACA. It's obviously inspired by Mitt Romney's Massachusetts⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhealth care reform, so you'd think the Republicans would be all in favor of it. Yet at the federal level,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msince it was pitched by the Democrats, the Republicans are against it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mde_Selby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt seems to be everywhere (even on the top rated comment here). Biden himself is dismissed as being not left⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0menough by a lot the online population from what I can see.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBecause he wasn't the the fashionable choice for Democratic nomination (Sanders) he's reduced to being just⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man old guy who isn't Trump but is in the right party without anyone even bothering to even read his Wikipedia⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpage or look up some of his speeches on youtube.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe's a passionate politician and an empathic speaker who has the experience to be a realist and appeal to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrepublican voters too. He's exactly what is needed right now.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSanders wouldn't have had a chance to get in, but even if he did he would just polarise things even further.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSanders wouldn't have had a chance to get in, but even if he did he would just polarise things even[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mfurther.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAccording to this Fox News poll[[31m1[0m], much of Bernie Sanders' platform would resonate with voters more so than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden's platform.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mimgur.com/a/YxxnynP[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmseidl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWell if you vote for Trump you like what he says or it doesn't bother you enough, then that speaks volumes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLike when he called Mexicans rapists/murderers/drug dealers, or when he made fun of a disabled reporter, or⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msaid a women was too ugly to rape. Trump is just a horrible person. I'm German, a and left wing European.(I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mused to live in the US also). I don't like democrats politically. But if I could have, I would've voted for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthem as I view them not as destructive as republicans. But, even if Trump was as left as Sanders, one of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfew American politicians I actually like, I wouldn't vote for him.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowmehaweh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLike when he called Mexicans rapists/murderers/drug dealer[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think this validates OP's point. He never said all Mexicans are rapists etc, he was speaking about border⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msecurity and describing the people illegally entering the country through the Southern Border. One of many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msoundbites spun into a scandal by the media and used to dehumanize him.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis supporters understood what he meant, his detractors took the media spin hook, line, and sinker.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mRapzid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"They aren't sending their best". Yes, your description of this is accurate.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNews does this all the time to generate outrage, both left and right leaning, and I absolutely HATE it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mParticularly in the Trump and "fake news" era because it leaves them incredibly vulnerable to the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcriticism. "See! The fake-news, always lying!". Makes it easy to discredit their larger, more serious⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreporting by picking on these smaller transgressions.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwhytaka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you appreciate the inevitable outcome of this sort of speech is that people, whether they are Mexican or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot, whether they are legal immigrants or not, so long as they fit into some deranged category, will meet⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmore violence in their day-to-day lives?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's not racist because of the exact words said, it's racist because of the obvious consequences. There are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mways to talk about difficult issues. Trump empowered the worst people to come out from hiding.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe hook, line, and sinker is when he said, "and some, I assume, are good people." It's tantamount to, "I'm⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot racist. I have a black friend."⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHe never said all Mexicans are rapists etc, he was speaking about border security and describing the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpeople illegally entering the country through the Southern Border.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe didn't [3msay it[0m, he [3minsinuated it[0m.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs that really so different?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjahbrewski[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI appreciate your centrist views!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the loss of nuance to our political discussions is a disaster …and I only see it getting worse. I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbelieve there are good ideas on both sides of the aisle, but often feel like the only one with that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mviewpoint.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow can we fix this?⁣
  ⁣
    [1meecc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell, nuance is not an exclusively centrist quality. There’s nuance in radical thinking as well⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtraceddd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI’ll add one doesn’t have to be a centrist by any means to choose intellect over tribalism. The “left”, the “⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright”, and the “none of the above” can all achieve it too if they spend less time on media driven depictions⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand more on deeply exploring the issues.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCentrists have it easier because they naturally see positive aspects of both sides, and that is exactly what⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis needed. If one can’t put themselves in the shoes of the other side and find a few strong legitimate and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlogical reasons they can connect with, then they really don’t understand what they are even fighting. You⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mshould be able to argue the other side. The reasons are there, and emotion only serves to blind us to them.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mvvanders[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think when there is common set of facts that could be agreed upon that might be possible.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe rejection of basic facts, outright lies and contempt of science. I don't know how you can have a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdiscourse in that environment.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mAlisdairO[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdisclaimer: I'm not American, but I'm from the UK which has similar issues on a smaller scale.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe thing is, as a leftist I used to be able to have [3mconversations[0m with conservatives. We had different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvalues, but a largely shared understanding of reality. That gave a common basis for contrast and discussion.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNow, that's gone. My biased perception is that the worst of it started on the right: a ways back Fox started⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcreating a bubble of alternative reality, and that's been hugely amplified with the arrival of social media.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI started struggling to communicate in meaningful ways. More recently I've found myself fact checking my own⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcommunity more often than I used to - I wonder if Trump has sent leftists crazy in the same way that Obama⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdid the right 😉.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNow, that's gone[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCheck out r/Libertarian sometime. After it was radicalized by self-professed fascist moderators and turned⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minto a pro-Trump meme board, the admin stepped in and installed a moderation team that spent time coming up⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith rules to prevent the subreddit from being overrun by authoritarians again. They added legitimate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleft-libertarian[[31m1[0m] moderators, and there are left-libertarians users that post there.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI bring it up because it is the only conservative space I've seen that doesn't end up posting helicopter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mride[[33m2[0m] memes at people they perceive to be even slightly to the left of them.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-libertarianism[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_flights[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAlisdairO[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThanks, I'll give it a look!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdrak0n1c[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'd say MSNBC was just as complicit as Fox over the decades.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn 2009, they purposefully cropped video of the main protester outside an Obama town-hall meeting to only⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mshow his back and slung rifle, and then used the footage to immediately launch into a panel discussion⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpositing that the primary motivation for the protests against Obama was racial animus. The protester was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mblack.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere is the footage (paired with another incident of egregious misreporting in 1992):⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=fvBQDHqdCck[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAlisdairO[0m [2m8 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm not going to tell you that there aren't issues on the other channels, but the sheer volume of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmanipulation on Fox is utterly overwhelming. Imperfect as it is I don't really think MSNBC compares.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbutbutemails2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhoa, that reminds me of the 2011 Obama speech in Alabama where it was misreported that Alabamans thought⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mObama drank Honest Tea (see video for better context)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mm.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkzrdude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt seems the "windows of acceptable opinions" have gotten narrower (acceptable in a given social clique); I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthink the reason is that our social medias are so open - we talk not directly to a few people we trust, but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mour outbursts are visible to a wide circle or even public. This leads to self-censorship.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAlisdairO[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI agree. In general I identify as very progressive (especially by US standards), but I hold some opinions⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat are somewhat outside of the leftist norm, and I'm more or less completely unwilling to discuss them⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0monline as I don't trust that I will be treated in good faith.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe sad thing here is that I'm genuinely open to having my opinions changed, and have a history of changing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmy view in response to argument in the past. But can't have my view changed if I'm too scared to even have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe discussion 😉.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjancsika[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBeing a centrist doesn't magically save you from being in an information bubble.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway201103[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhere did all the intellect go?[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's hard to have an intellectual debate in 120-character snippets on platforms that promote outrage over⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreason.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mehsankia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWas 140, now is 280.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe bigger issue is retweet culture which pushes clickbait and anger inducing content.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpunnerud[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mStarting to feel that the only way out of it is to remove the «Winner takes it all», to let more political⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparties participate. And the one with majority, by uniting them, get the president.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's truly scary watching how viral the conspiracies in this election go in minutes on Twitter/FB. One side⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwants to find "fraud" so any clip someone posts out of context becomes proof and spreads like wildfire.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkace91[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a complete outsider,I watched the politics and conservative subreddits respectively as the election⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munfolded.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's of course anecdotal, but after watching that with my own eyes I would find it very hard to believe that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthose links, threads and comments were developing organically.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor example, the conservative subreddit went from following the election to having the front page fully⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfilled with claims of election fraud in matter of literal minutes, with sources coming from a million places⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mat the same time.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJust like magic, suddenly the election being rigged went from a crazy idea to incontestable fact, and now⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor many people that's what happened, clear as day.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt was extremely scary to see,I still don't know what to make of it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchris11[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSocial media is now a primary target for foreign election interference, I'm sure that's a major cause. In⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m2016 Russia targeted Clinton and supported Trump. But they also generally tried to increase division. One⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mugly thing about that is disinformation campaigns would actually get support from some Americans.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe House is Democratically controlled, but Republicans control the senate, so there's bipartisan agreement⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon this. [34mwww.nytimes.com/2018/02/17/technology/indictment-rus…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mintelligence.house.gov/social-media-content/[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mSamReidHughes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mConservatives were saying Trump’s margins would have to be big enough that Dems couldn’t steal it well⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbefore election day. It was never a “crazy idea”, it’s been on their minds since the push for vote by mail.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(We detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017543[0m. There's nothing wrong with it - the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthread is just too top heavy)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthatwasunusual[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMy friends on the left think the only reason for voting trump is racism, and friends on the right think the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3monly reason for voting biden is socialism. Where did all the intellect go?[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhy don't you ask them?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbfieidhbrjr[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause they go insane and get very angry. I've learnt not to ask.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mahartmetz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA good technique for that is to encourage people to follow their own logic (by asking some simple questions⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mif necessary) until they notice themselves that they arrive at absurdities.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo. It’s that each side lets these things slide.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMany countries let a little socialism slide, with great results.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA little racism should never be allowed to slide. Racism is disgusting.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtshaddox[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat is the (or your) intellectual analysis?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mamanaplanacanal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe thing is: your friends aren’t completely wrong, in that their are loud racists that support Trump, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mloud socialists that support Biden.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut they aren’t the majority of either party. It’s just our media that amplifies their voices.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe socialists that support Biden do so with noses held and muttering about "liberals".⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdavesque[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you live in SV? That might have something to do with it. I have plenty of friends on the right and left⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho don't think in absolutes.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrorykoehler[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe thing with the racism and Trump is it's part of his platform. You have to think it's ok to vote for him.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere is no half measure of racism.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTheCondor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWas there ever intellect? Or we more generally selected gentlemen as politicians and we stepped out of that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith Trump?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKarrot_Kream[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere absolutely was. I highly recommend watching the Gore Vidal vs William Buckley Jr debates. Both Vidal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand Buckley were extremely well spoken and reasoned in their arguments. I wonder if Buckley and Goldwater⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare weeping over Trump as their political successor.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mTheCondor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm not talking about the political actors, I'm talking about the electorate. To some degree, the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpoliticians will do what resonates. The difference is that for most of our history you pretty much had to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe a gentleman to even consider the senate or presidency. (I mean that classically, not in the misogynistic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msense.) It was probably Bill Clinton and then Trump that have demonstrated that the masses will gladly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melect a non-gentleman and Trump has really leaned in to the lowest common denominator politics. That⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcombined with self-selecting media. It's potent. You basically can distill the different tribal voices down⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto a vote for socialism or a vote for racism and it's sad to say but it worked pretty damn well and we had⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mone of the biggest turnouts ever.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdayofthedaleks[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is a false equivalency because voting for Trump in 2020 is a demonstration of complicity with a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myears-long record of racist rhetoric and policies while it’s simply laughable that a Biden administration⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould implement anything as redistributive as the New Deal, much less hiring true socialists in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0madministration.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI blame Fox News for getting away with a decade of bad-faith claims of socialism towards things like mortgage⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0massistance or Pre-K education.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2ma years-long record of racist policies[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump gained significant ground among racial minorities. So…IDK how to square that with your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcharacterization of his 4 years of policies.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPS. Lest you think the right has a monopoly on racism, I point you no further than California's attempted⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrepeal of discrimination law (Prop 209).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is the same sort of inflated rhetoric/tribalism the grandparent was speaking of.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAQuantized[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt would be a mistake to take some % increase as general approval from a demographic. If the demographic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malready had very little support prior, all it shows is that wasn't as bad as expected. In this case,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump's policy having fewer discriminatory outcomes than expected doesn't mean they aren't racist. That's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot to offer additional commentary on if him or his policy is racist, but that increase in support doesn't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcontradict the possibility.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGuardianCaveman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAreas with the highest covid death rates voted for trump does that mean his covid policy was sound?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMinorities like many vote against their own interest. Good people on both sides. I will give you the prison⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreform thing but that was Kushner and trump later expressed regret for it, and it was pandering.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mCameronNemo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump received 8% of the votes of black people.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtonitosou[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msure. 4 years of trump are to blame for racist rhetoric but surely not 47 years of biden. trump is not the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproblem he is the one that made the problem more visible. racism was always there.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrefurb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou just proved the OPs point. Well done.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump has been blatantly slandered by the mainstream media as racist evil orange man, it was 4 years of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m'1984' style brainwashing by the left.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mFuzzwah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"Slandered"…..⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen he didn't immediately condemn protestors marching under the damn Nazi flag he sort of positioned him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mself didn't he?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlabeling everyone protecting Robert E. Lee statue as 'neo-nazi' is a reach, same as labeling all BLM⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprotesters thugs and looters.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mLegitShady[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.veryfinepeople.info/[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLiterally a hoax. He explicitly condemned them in the same sentence. You have been gaslit and are confident⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mabout it without having checked the basic facts.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msosborn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSimilarly, it was 8 years of "Kenyan man bad" by the right.⁣
  ⁣
     [1markis22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlol probably less than 5% of people actually gave a crap or thought he was from Kenya.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit was more like, "liberal president who wants to do more, pushes through mass healthcare and finance⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreform without bipartisan support bad"⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe narrative that all republicans are racist is way more convenient though, go for that.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkybernetikos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mOne of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is a horrible reason to vote. You should vote for the person you will think would do the best job of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrunning the country out of the available choices.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVoting out of pettiness or personal offence is corrosive to the signal your vote should be carrying.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtaharvey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would say this is the fundamental reason to vote. What we saw in this countries current divisions is:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mREPUBLICANS: voting for ideology over everything⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEVERYONE ELSE: voting for democracy and stability over ideology.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump is a great President, with a track record of being true to his word in the matters of policy, that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas another big reason to vote for him.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut dems are trying to shove their agenda down people throats. If you don't stand up against lies, bullying⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand manipulation how different are you from people who conceded to Nazi thugs in Germany when they were⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgrabbing political power through blatant propaganda and violence.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maugustt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWould that slander look something like this? [34mstatic01.nyt.com/images/2019/06/18/nyregion/18nytrum…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAre you familiar with 1994 crime bill Biden signed? "We need more prisons" he said, watch his old speech on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myoutube.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mKamala put tens of thousands of black people in prison for minor marijuana offenses.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe hypocrisy of the liberals is mind-boggling.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcortesoft[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI heard him on tape (and he never denied it was him) say he could grab women by the pussy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is enough to mean you are not qualified to hold any office, ever.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mfaceless33[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMany man desire is to grab woman by the pussy. It is biology.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mChrisClark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTake a close look at yourself and who you've been listening to.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI've been listening primarily to the liberal mainstream news propaganda. Their lies are obvious if you dig⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma bit deeper, look at the facts and think for yourself.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mApparently critical thinking is what college-educated people lack this days after years of indoctrination⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minto groupthink and compliance. Deresiewicz called them 'excellent sheep' for a good reason.⁣
  ⁣
    [1markis22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it's sad you've been downvoted. Trump is deeply flawed, but I think people are being ignorant of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthemselves if they haven't looked around at popular culture and realized that it has been 4 years of "ORANGE⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMAN BAD"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnepotism with his children is bad, but nepotism with the democrats children is fine.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjoke downvotes by people smart enough to know that defending trump is bad, but not smart enough to come up⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith a comment⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpavlov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"nepotism with his children is bad, but nepotism with the democrats children is fine."[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you seriously believe that Biden as president will appoint his children as senior advisers and put his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mson-in-law in charge of everything from Middle East to Covid-19 response?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf not, then you can't argue that it's the same nepotism on both sides. It's clearly been much worse with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe Trumps.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchillacy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople are probably harder on him because it was an explicit campaign promise that he would be less corrupt⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mas a non politician. That doesn’t seem to have panned out imo.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mFDSGSG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBeing centrist I can relate to parts of both sides but my experience is they both dislike centrists.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs Biden not a centrist? He seems to be a right-of-center christian democrat like Merkel for example.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe is, in European terms. The US is on a completely different scale.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mFDSGSG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs it even meaningful to speak of centrism in a US context?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmlthoughts2018[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat do you mean by centrist? America doesn’t really have a left-wing political group, certainly not in any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmainstream way. Obama referred to himself as a Reagan Republican and Biden is even more right-leaning. Even⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfigures like AOC and Bernie Sanders are extremely anodyne, not at all “left wing” just barely more liberal⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthan American centrists.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe “centrist” view in America is extremely far to the right, which then allows factions like Trump’s to be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfar right to deeply fascist, racist extremes (this is not hyperbole, Trump is dangerously fascist) and yet⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstill act like he’s just “on the right” because “centrist” positions in the US are themselves so deeply far⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mright already.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe US really urgently needs more mainstream [3mfar left[0m politicians, instead of nearly-Republican examples like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHarris, Warren, Biden, Buttigieg, etc. AOC & Sanders are the closest, but by no means do they represent views⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat are anywhere near being a healthy “far left” ideology to help draw a compromise from the far right and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtowards a healthier centrist position.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“Centrist” in the US would at least be on the fence of letting individual own assault rifles, withdrawing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfederal funds for abortion, reducing the EPA and decommitting from international agreements on climate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchange, granting large tax breaks to corporations, eliminating social welfare programs for oppressed classes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof people (in ways that overtly hurt the poor, minorities and women), and creating a legal chasm blocking any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mroad to universal medical care, all while buying into jingoistic ideas about America being the best and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdehumanizing other groups like immigrants and foreigners.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat’s the [3mcentrist[0m position in the US. When anything further left is even suggested, the socialism boogeyman⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis drummed up and huge populations of people will vote against it for no other reason than “socialism bad.”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAny sense of acting like there’s a benign Republican core of ideas around states’ rights or lower taxes to be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdiscussed in good faith is just gobsmackingly wrong about the US. That is just simply a falsehood.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat passes for middle of the road, “good faith” centrist discussion is deeply far right already, and “⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mboth-sides-ism” where “liberals claiming all Trump voters are racist” is disingenuously used to act like it’s⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“the same as” the behavior of the American far right is both completely wrong and contributing to the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproblem.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmanigandham[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUsing what "left" and "center" mean in other countries to compare to American politics is pointless.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are clear left and right viewpoints in the US with centrist usually being a fiscally conservative and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msocially liberal mix of policies.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmlthoughts2018[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is no longer a core of fiscally conservative but socially liberal citizens, that just does not exist.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI also reject the premise of your first point. It doesn’t matter what the current within-country standard⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor left and right are, that’s useless semantics. All that matters is outcomes in peoples’ lives.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA personal right to own assault rifles or limit federal funds for abortion (even if only for fiscal or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstates’ rights reasons) is emphatically far right in the sense of overall outcomes for lives, it does not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmatter what within-country label someone might want to call it by.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mchasd00[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUS individuals cant own assault rifles without special federal permits.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmlthoughts2018[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut belief they should be allowed to own them is quite widespread among Republicans / Libertarians.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/10/22/facts-about…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m“ Other proposals bring out stark partisan rifts. Democrats, for example, are much more likely than[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mRepublicans to favor banning assault-style weapons (88% vs. 50%) and high-capacity magazines (87% vs.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3m54%).”[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou can also see in the charts in that link that even though a modest majority of all Americans believes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere should be stricter gun laws, it is driven drastically by how dominant that view is among Democrats⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(86%) vs Republicans (where 69% say current gun laws are OK or are already too strict).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI only chose this topic because it refutes the falsehood that there’s some core of reasonable centrists in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerica - there’s totally not. Many issues are like this example of gun laws where it is extremely partisan⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand where one version of the extreme partisan divide is usually considered “centrist” (for example, belief⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat gun laws are mostly OK as-is, which is a really right wing belief but is seen as “centrist”) but it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mactually belies America being heavily shifted to the far right by default, so it’s not really center.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mglobular-toast[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEven your view of left/right being a spectrum is a woefully inadequate model. In reality political parties⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msit on at least two dimensions, as shown by the political compass. People who can only think in terms of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mleft/right, red/blue, etc simply shouldn't be voting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mAkababa[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah, but left/right is a big part of what differentiates political parties. It's like the first factor in a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPCA decomposition.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mglobular-toast[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you want to bring in rigorous analysis you have to first define what left/right even is. Is it economic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpolicy? You really think the biggest thing that differentiates red/blue is economic policy? They both sit⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfirmly on the right.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkybernetikos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would love to see a decent PCA decomposition if you've got one. The way Left/Right is defined seems⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpretty arbitrary and varies a lot between cultures.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mAtaraxy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's probably because so called centrists don't stand for much of anything beyond trying to gain a social⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0medge by pretending they're above it all when they aren't. It's an excuse to attempt to distill belief systems⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minto a very narrow point of view precisely like you've described with the whole "only reason" nonsense. I'd⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreally appreciate it if one could describe why they consider themselves one since it's totally meaningless to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mme when someone self identifies as a centrist.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJust like in marketing it's all about how you frame a question to a person. Realistically most people share⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcommon beliefs at the fundamental level in what they want to see out of the power structures in our society.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn other words, the vast majority of people in this country want to improve upon their material conditions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe rest of the circlejerk is just grifting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrm445[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA couple of ideas: (1) Centrism is situational. One might think that the status quo is objectively⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreasonably close to the ideal, in terms of the general way society is arranged even if there are many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimperfections. (2) Centrism is technocratic. If you don't favour a lurch to the left or right, it would make⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msense to want efficient improvements to how things are run - accepting good ideas regardless of which area⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof the political compass they come from, bipartisan support for policies on their merits.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBased on the above, centrism (and indeed, being centre-left or centre-right) seems viable as a real belief⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat people can hold, not some strategy to appear above it all for social benefit, or as a stratagem used by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msomeone actually highly partisan. A centrist's goals could be directly met by encouraging trial of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifferent ideas across the political spectrum, and consistent meta-level rules rather than tribalist⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthinking. Trying to rise above the bunfighting isn't the benefit of centrist views, it's a necessity to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0menable the things they want to achieve.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mintrepidhero[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'll sometimes self-identify as a centrist in that I notice two increasingly radicalized extremes that spend⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmost of there energy screaming at each other. You might think I'm doing that to "gain a social edge" but the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtruth is I just don't like screaming.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mFpUser[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"…I'd really appreciate it if one could describe why they consider themselves one since it's totally[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmeaningless to me when someone self identifies as a centrist."[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhy would they care whether it has a meaning to you. They care about their own beliefs.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI empathize more with your right-leaning friends. The extremes of the right (racists, nazis, white⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msupremacists, etc) are kept very much in check by taboo. The extremes of the left (socialism, communism,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcollectivism, and the new Woke cult) are not.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnecdotally, I not only do not work with any of the former, but can't imagine a workplace that would suffer⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthem. At the same time, I work with multiple people that are proud, self-proclaimed members of the latter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgroup.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you think about why the former are taboo and the latter aren't (at least in your mind), something obvious⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mshould happen.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd as a european, I can tell you with high degree of certainty that absolutely zero of your friends or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mworkmates are actually socialists or communists. It's possible they embrace socialist ideals, as Sanders⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoes, but Sanders is at best a moderate left-wing here in europe.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou folks in the US developed a weird hatred of the word "socialism", equating it with the ridiculous⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdictatorial ideals of Stalin, Castro etc. But although socialism has a hard time working, that doesn't mean⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome of its ideas don't work in a democracy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere in europe, "free health care" is not socialism. It's a human right. Human rights are fun, you should⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtry them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think something that requires others to labor can ever be a right. I would call that slavery.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlifeformed[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhy are you drawing an equivalence between "murder all non-white people" and "give power to the working⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclass"?⁣
  ⁣
     [1msomelikeithot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell, communism usually ends in killing the working class it try’s to advocate for⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's amazing to me that you frame it that way and probably think you're doing so in good faith.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnyway, I'm reasonably confident that if we tallied the deaths resulting from racism and collectivism,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcollectivism would win handily.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msocialdemocrat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBiden’s focus ought to be making sure a crazy person like Trump is never elected again and that if he is, that
  [0mgovernment institutions cannot be abused the way they were under Trump.
  [0m
  [0mIt should be made easier to prosecute a president for illegal activity.
  [0m
  [0mThings like showing tax returns should be formalized.
  [0m
  [0mNew regulation needs to be put in place to limit the spread of falsehoods and conspiracy theories over facts.
  [0m
  [0mSocial media currently benefit economically from this and that has to stop. The economic incentive to spread
  [0mcrazy and extremist ideas has to be removed.

                                                   [1m▶ 8 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 8 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkortilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt should be made easier to prosecute a president for illegal activity.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s already easy. The House made their case and the Senate disagreed. The same thing happens in real court⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(prosecution makes a case and jury disagrees). It absolutely should not be so easy that the house alone can⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mremove the president with a simple majority.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThings like showing tax returns should be formalized.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhy? Anything really insidious isn’t going to be on a return anyway. And if it’s required for the President,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhy not literally every other government position?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcgrealy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe House made their case and the Senate disagreed.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is ignoring the open partisanship displayed by the Senate. The Republicans openly admitted they would⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe giving the impeachment process a fair hearing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd to be fair, I doubt the Democrats would have done any different had the positions been reversed.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not sure there's a better solution. I'm not sure you want an "impartisan" non-elected body to make a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecision as fundamental as removing the President from office.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTrackerFF[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it's safe to say that one of the major reasons Trump won, was because he was hailed as some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmastermind business person, who'd [3m"run America like a business".[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat mantra started with Mitt Romney, but he ran against a strong candidate - so it never really took off.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut then it turns out, Trump is a [3mreally[0m weak businessman, with almost 4 decades of bankruptcies and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcrushing debt to his name. His business failings have been known forever, but his personal debt is new⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minformation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNormal people joining [3many[0m position which requires security clearance can get denied, on basis of relatively⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msmall consumer debt. Why? Because it makes you risky, and susceptible of corruption.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBased in his personal debt alone, Trump would never, [3mever[0m get any security clearance of any kind.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso, letting the senate decide seems like a broken system when it's absolutely clear that both sides will⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpick party of country, any day of the week.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf anything, the Trump administration has been the great stress-test of how things work in practice. Better⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto patch up the system now, than to wait for the next smarter and more cunning wannabe-dictator.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkortilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBased in his personal debt alone, Trump would never, ever get any security clearance of any kind.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNobody cares. Obama wouldn’t have gotten clearance because he smoked pot.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt probably should be required for any government position where the holder of the office is expected to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexercise their own individual discretion. The Federal government won’t grant a security clearance to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mindividuals that owe substantial amounts of money, especially to foreigners, or who have deep personal ties⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto foreigners or ownership stakes in foreign businesses. I for one would like to know whether candidates⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwould be eligible for a security clearance (though of course the President themself is not subject to most⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrules about classified information).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdannyw[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI doubt tax returns would’ve stopped trump from winning in 2016. Ultimately the will of the people should⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprevail; that’s what a democracy is.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mharimau777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump was never taken to court because the position of the Justice Department is that the President is above⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe law. That could be changed.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Senate was not equivalent to a jury since juries do not generally have the same incentives to pervert⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjustice that the Senate did.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m…why not literally every other government position?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe President has dramatically more power than almost any other government position. That being said, I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcould see it being required for Supreme Court justices and members of Congress.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjakeogh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcourt… over what?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=21153531[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mNesco[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mPersonally I think we are watching the slow death of the USA. May be from France I am not getting all the
  [0msubtle details about the situation on the ground but the country seems to be completely divided.
  [0m
  [0mThere is almost nothing now that holds America coherent as a country. It has too much variance to form a
  [0msensible cluster. It went from a basically almost racially homogeneous, English speaking, Christian - with a
  [0mlot of flavours I recognise but still - and ideologically united country to a multi racial, multi
  [0mconfessional, and now in some part multilingual with radically opposing views and interests country.
  [0m
  [0mThere is more in common on many points between Estonia and Ireland than between California and Arkansas.
  [0m
  [0mTrumpism was not an outlier but an indication of how strong the centrifugal forces became…

                                                   [1m▶ 7 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 7 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mabvdasker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis just isn't true. The US has been a multiracial nation for most of its history due to the country's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0menormous population of enslaved and eventually emancipated black people combined with an extraordinarily⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mliberal immigration system. The US's diversity is one of the things that differentiates it from nearly every⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEuropean country. It's a good thing.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou using the Irish as an example is totally bizarre to me because they barely get along with the English⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(who are mostly also white and Christian). The Troubles were not that long ago and represent a level of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical violence between different cultural groups that the US hasn't seen in a very long time.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgamblor956[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mIt went from a basically almost racially homogeneous, English speaking, Christian - with a lot of flavours I[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mrecognise but still - and ideologically united country to a multi racial, multi confessional, and now in some[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mpart multilingual with radically opposing views and interests country.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt no point in America's history was it ideologically united. It was divided from the very beginning; our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfounding document itself was the product of a compromise between two mutually exclusive governmental ideals.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mThere is more in common on many points between Estonia and Ireland than between California and Arkansas.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI doubt that very much. Arkansans and Californians speak the same language, eat the same food, watch the same⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mshows and movies, listen to the same music, learn the same history. There are ideological differences, sure,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbut those ideological differences are the same as you see in other countries, including Estonia and Ireland.⁣
  ⁣
   [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMost of the country is not divided at all. There are differences of opinion sure, but not some kind of epic⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdivision. The media likes to focus on the extremes because they make the most noise and say the craziest⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthings.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocrat representatives recently voiced an analysis that the crazy extreme minority of the party cost them⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mseats in the House because the majority of voters don't want extremes or crazy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msmaps[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mPersonally I think we are watching the slow death of the USA. May be from France I am not getting all the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msubtle details about the situation on the ground but the country seems to be completely divided.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI live in Washington DC and completely agree with you. The division has only been getting worse for years.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrefurb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere have been predictions of the slow death of the US since the 60’s.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI won’t hold my breath.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m_jjkk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI've heard this take from many in the EU, sounds like it's being pushed explicitly by media there.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAny student of US history can tell you that the current events are not especially indicative of the "death of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe USA" or some such, and proposing that view just shows the hyped up fearmongering lens though which US⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mevents are portrayed to the world⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdchichkov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat saddens me, is that by the standards of corporate world Trump didn't do anything extraordinary. He was
  [0mrunning a country in a style of a mediocre corporate executive. Same type of an executive that, for example,
  [0mresulted in The Boeing Company suffering losses and having fleets grounded. But nothing special, really. Think
  [0m"Uber" type of a corporate culture. Or "WeWork". Used to run a country.
  [0m
  [0mIt is no wonder, the likely result is 400k+ deaths and a worst downturn in a century. And one doesn't need to
  [0mlook further than Taiwan or South Korea, to see that it was not inevitable and preventable by good governance.
  [0m
  [0mA wish for good governance. Less cynicism. And a shift of culture in both politics and corporate world that
  [0mdoesn't allow for such disasters.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtitzer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump would not have lasted as CEO more than a few months. Such blatant lying and bullshitting just does not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfly in a corporation with a board. He only sat atop Trump empire for so long because there was no one but him⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrunning the show.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdayjobpork[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's almost like the roles of government, such as medical access, social security and law enforcement, should⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot be run as a business⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mChuckMcM[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOne of the things this election, and the last four years, has shown me, is the impact of technology on our
  [0mpolitical discourse. It hasn't been a "good" insight.
  [0m
  [0mFederal Election records indicate that the leadership of technology companies overwhelmingly supported a set
  [0mof values that their employees appear to just as overwhelmingly reject. That dissonance is really quite
  [0mremarkable.
  [0m
  [0mI see one of the fundamental challenges facing the new administration is how to address this. I am not a fan
  [0mof government regulation, more of a "let the markets decide" kind of guy. I recognize however there is a
  [0msystemic risk where the technology "owner" can exploit it to harm society in a way that was previously
  [0mimpossible.
  [0m
  [0mWhile the country has focused on disinformation and hate speech, consider a company that controls, in real
  [0mtime, the self-driving software in a car. Such a technology, if weaponized, to could kill hundreds of
  [0mthousands of people. Or it could be weaponize to kill select people who were in the intersection of riding in
  [0ma self-driven car and in disfavor by the company that really controls that car.
  [0m
  [0mEarly on in my career I chose not to work for military contractors who were the "big" employers in Los Angeles
  [0mat the time I graduated from college. They were clearly engaged in finding clever, or at least more effective,
  [0mways to kill people and that wasn't where I wanted to spend my time. But what about someone working on self
  [0mdriving? It saves lives by avoiding some of the things end up resulting in crashes. But it also provides an
  [0mopportunity for great evil.
  [0m
  [0mDo we trust the person in charge to not be evil? Companies change and while they might declare their
  [0mintentions when they are growing, what happens when they are on top? Sometimes those quaint notions get cast
  [0maside when being a little bit evil makes what you're trying to do that much easier or maybe that much more
  [0mprofitable.
  [0m
  [0mWhat is the appropriate response, in a democracy, to a small number of people controlling a potential weapon
  [0mthat can destroy that democracy? Sadly this is no longer an idle question.
  [0m
  [0mI don't have any answers here, just more questions.

                                                   [1m▶ 7 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 7 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbufferoverflow[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSuch a technology, if weaponized, to could kill hundreds of thousands of people.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTry and drive a Tesla through a red light or through a person that it clearly sees. Try and drive a Tesla⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfast without being in it. It just doesn't work.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOn the other hand, nothing stops someone from attaching a simple remote control system to a regular truck and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdriving through a crowd of people.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNothing stops someone from making an aimbot for a machine gun. That can kill a lot of people fast.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=6QcfZGDvHU8[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mChuckMcM[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mInterestingly I avoided injury by a Tesla which was approaching the intersection I was crossing and the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdriver was distracted. I heard the tire screech and looked over to see a driver clearly panicked both⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecause they realized they nearly hit someone and there phone was now nowhere to be found.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is a great thing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut what if someone inside of TESLA, the folks who write the software and send it over the air to your car,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecided to add their own "feature" to the car such that they could override the safety system with a network⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpacket, or a text message to the car. That person would be in a position to tell the car to ignore its⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msafety systems and kill its occupant.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is kind of a staple of dystopian fiction, but now that we're getting closer to having that software out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere in real time, the question becomes less fiction and more "What would have to be true for that to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhappen?"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe change here is cars that are always connected to the Internet and have command authority over all of the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msystems in the car. Before if you wanted to alter the software controlling a car you took it to a dealer, or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma mod-shop, but now it just shows up in your car. What sort of insider threat programs does Tesla have?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat sort of controls are their on releases? Do third parties have any opportunity to audit everything in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe code? What happens if Elon orders an employee to put some code in? Do they do it? Do they report it?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd not to pick on Tesla here, the same goes for GM/Cruise and Waymo right? ALL self driving systems that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare currently in development have full control of the car, an always connected component, and a dynamic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msoftware update capability. Should it be required they also have a mechanical switch that forces manual⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcontrol without any means of circumventing the switch in software? That would have to come as a government⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mregulation right? And then what happens when someone steals the Waymo van by throwing the switch and driving⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maway with it?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHopefully that gives you a sense of where my head is here in these questions.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOur society is built on Trust. You have to trust your bank to keep your money in your name and allow you to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwithdraw when you want it. You have to trust that the fire truck will come when you have a fire. You have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto trust that your neighbours won’t randomly wake up one day become zombies thirsty for your blood.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSame way you ought to trust, but not blind trust. Trust but verify.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think the self driving game will be won with someone who as a transparency mindset. Here’s the car. Here’⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ms the software, here’s the guarantee that it hasn’t been modified and here’s the extensive tests that we’ve⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrun on it, verified by 3rd parties vouching for its safety and quality.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSame with any technology company. You win by making solid technology backed with real rigorous testing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvouched by trusted 3rd parties and general public.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpm90[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don’t think this is a good argument. Taking actions that influence people is sketchy but legal (eg FB⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mallowing disinformation) but actually turning self driving cars into death machines is just … not something I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msee as being possible, and goes into crazy conspiracy zone for me. There are a ton of regulations around the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msafety of passengers, which are likely to be expanded to include self driving tech as well.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mInvictus0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAll of the self driving car research will eventually be used to make self-driving tanks and other automated⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mweapons of war. All technological innovation ends up being used for war eventually; it's just a question of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhether the military or the public gets to use it first.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchillacy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you also worry about Boeing flight control software, nuclear reactor software, or XRay machine software?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mChuckMcM[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGenerally I don't. That said, reading the various reports on the 737-MAX suggests that Boeing has some work⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto do in this regard.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile all of the examples you give could conceivably be attached to the Internet, none of them update their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcore software over the Internet. That would be a non-starter for the agencies that regulate them. When I see⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthings like "autopilot updates" delivered to a Tesla as an update, it feels to me that self driving is an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexample of a technology that is 'running ahead' of the regulators at the moment.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mConsider Facebook, which is a popular bad guy here[[31m1[0m]. There have been "crank" bulletin board systems since⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe 70's at least, and before that with HAM radio operators riling each other up over various perceived⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mslights and insults. In 2016 we got to see that with a precision advertisement targeting system, and way⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore insights into people than ever existed before, companies like Cambridge Analytica could precisely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtarget individuals who were susceptible to a particular line of reasoning. CA essentially offered⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRadicalization As a Service. We are still dealing with that to this day. Was there any reason to worry about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBBS software? Not when it was a self selecting group. But when the BBS became a billion BBSes all hosted on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe same platform with clear insights into the demographics, fears, and hopes of all of those BBSes at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0monce, that was something new. And it changed the risk profile and was weaponized against people.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt has always been desirable for groups to find somewhat like minded people in order to form a group for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcollective action. That is the 'demand' side of the question, but before Facebook it wasn't economic to do⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat at scale. With Facebook it did become economic to do that, and it gave anyone a new capability. Not all⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof those people have (or had) people's best interest at heart and so we get the bad as well as the good.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPrior to self driving cars with over the air updates, continuous network connectivity, and full access to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mall systems on a car, has their been the capability (actualized or not) for someone anywhere in the world to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtarget a specific car and take control away from the driver. The previous poster child, for vehicles⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manyway, were cars with computers that controlled things like engine starting/stopping and brakes. One issue⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas that you had to be near the car to know which one you wanted to attack. Self driving cars finesse that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mby giving you an interior camera view. It is a different realm of problem.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] I don't consider Facebook a bad actor per se, I believe that the forces that motivate them (page⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mengagement, ad clicks, ad sales, etc) find ways to be serviced. And those ways are not constrained by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0methics.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mMichaelMoser123[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhatever his style, Trump didn't start any wars during his term. Lets see if Biden will do as well.

                                                   [1m▶ 19 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 19 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlghh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe only reason is because we are politically smart enough not to call them "wars" any more. He's personally⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mresponsible for the wholesale slaughter of people in Yemen - something Biden said he'd put an end to.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamadeuspagel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Saudi War on Yemen started in 2015, before Trump was even elected. How is he responsible for it?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrrss[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m'lghh did not say Trump was involved in starting the war in Yemen. And yet he is still responsible for a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlot that has happened in Yemen, both through directly through U.S. actions and indirectly through U.S.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupport of Saudi operations.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe Saudi military is using American bombs dropped by American planes flown by pilots trained by Americans⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand serviced by American mechanics. U.S. Congress has attempted to reduce American involvement by blocking⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0marms deals and invoking the War Powers Resolution, but Trump has bypassed or vetoed those attempts. He's a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbig fan of selling arms to the Saudis because he has said those sales create "over a million jobs" in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerica.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFurther reading:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mairwars.org/news-and-investigations/trump-in-yemen-n…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mReported civilian deaths tracked by Airwars in 2017 significantly outstripped alleged deaths in any year[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mduring the Obama presidency[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mairwars.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Eroding-Trans…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mlimited comparison of officially declared US actions supports the understanding that US military strikes[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3min Yemen increased precipitously in the first year of the Trump presidency[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raid_on_Yakla[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.whitehouse.gov/articles/president-trump-king-sal…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2017/06/13/world/middleeast/trump-we…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.reuters.com/article/us-usa-saudi-arms/defying-co…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe Trump administration informed congressional committees that it will go ahead with 22 military sales[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mto the Saudis, United Arab Emirates and Jordan, infuriating lawmakers by circumventing a long-standing[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mprecedent for congressional review of major weapons sales.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMembers of Congress had been blocking sales of offensive military equipment to Saudi Arabia and the[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mUnited Arab Emirates for months, angry about the huge civilian toll from their air campaign in Yemen[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mapnews.com/article/1b17cee217b344d8a3a03642139fb606[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mPresident Donald Trump vetoed a resolution passed by Congress to end U.S. military assistance in Saudi[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mArabia’s war in Yemen.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/us/politics/trump-civilia…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2017/03/12/us/politics/trump-loosen-…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2017/09/21/us/politics/trump-drone-s…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe Trump administration is preparing to dismantle key Obama-era limits on drone strikes and commando[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mraids outside conventional battlefields[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/10/22/trumps-cl…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mBeached[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit isn't really politics though. the term war has legal meaning that will invoke actions and rulings from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtreatied allies and the UN. if you call it a war, the world gets involved, if you call it a strategic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcampaign, every gets the option to turn. their heads and not get involved if they so choose⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMore importantly, since we’re talking about the United States, the President can’t actually start wars.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCongress declares war. So mincing words about whether the President has technically started a “war” is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvacuous. No President ever has.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGiven that context it’s easy to understand that people using the term War in the modern day to discuss the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mactions of a US President are not referring to the technical meaning of the term.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlghh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat sounds precisely like politics.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mHelloworldboy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs Obama’s vice president he’s responsible for more deaths and warmongering that donald trump. The Obama⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0madministration was blowing up wedding parties weekly with drone strikes⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjonwinstanley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPushed the US closer to civil war though. Isn’t that worse?⁣
  ⁣
    [1modiroot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI had an impression this strong division already started during Obama presidency. Probably in the aftermath⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof 2008 crisis.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mInitialLastName[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis. The 2008 collapse converted large populations of young, rural and urban middle-class people into wage⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mslaves, while both the Bush and Obama administrations printed money to prop up the financial institutions⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhose behavior caused the collapse. This propped up the stock market nicely, which kept retireees happy,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut inflated away any assets and wage growth younger people might have seen.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe real trick, though, was the MSM and social media using bubbles and doubletalk to convince those angry⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mun-/under-employed urban and rural folks that they should blame each other.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFrom that, you got the Tea Party and Occupy Wall Street and (the angry seeds of) the alt-right and the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopulist left.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmmastrac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIronically Trump was one of the major pushers of the birther story.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjelliclesfarm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhow?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjonwinstanley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLots of ways⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgjs278[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlol no because there isn’t going to be a civil war⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrtx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo brown people are very thankful.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mchordalkeyboard[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSome would say its better. I guess it depends on your perspective.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mummonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI mean we were somewhat fortunate Iran's missile strike didn't cause any deaths.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway6734[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe trade war?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msergiotapia[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHow does this election relate to the 2000 election when all media called Gore the winner, but then in
  [0mDecember, Bush became the president elect?
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.forbes.com/sites/jonathanponciano/2020/11/04/the…[0m
  [0m
  [0m"On election night, it was unclear who had won, with the electoral votes of the state of Florida still
  [0mundecided. The returns showed that Bush had won Florida by such a close margin that state law required a
  [0mrecount. A month-long series of legal battles led to the highly controversial 5–4 Supreme Court decision Bush
  [0mv. Gore, which ended the recount."
  [0m
  [0mCan this happen again this time?

                                                   [1m▶ 32 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 32 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mperennate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat do you mean "all media called Gore the winner"? I can't find any evidence of that. According to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWikipedia [[31m1[0m], "on November 8 … the networks declared that Bush had carried Florida and therefore been⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melected president. … after all votes were counted, … the networks retracted their declarations that Bush had⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwon Florida and the presidency".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso, note that Gore privately conceded the election that night, but retracted it after further counting due⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto the <1000 vote margin.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo in fact major networks (including CNN, ABC, FOX) initially called Bush the winner, but retracted that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mafterwards due to the possibility of a recount.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mvptr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere [34mwww.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/aponline/20001108/apon…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1medaemon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThose networks called Florida for Gore, not the whole election.⁣
  ⁣
    [1madrr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmount of misinformation coming out is really concerning. SharpieGate, fake videos of ballot stuffing, more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvotes than registered voters etc.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhosteur[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHow do you determine what is misinfo and what isn’t? Honest question.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgranzymes[0m [31mOP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA few differences:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* In 2000 it was one tipping-point state. Here, Biden has multiple states putting him over the top.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* The margin in those states is larger than in Florida. The final official Florida count gave the victory to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBush by 537 votes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* 2000 involved a recount of legitimately questionable ballots. Trump's legal cases (thus far) have been⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjudged by experts to be far less serious.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* Trump (so far) is not challenging enough ballots to give him the lead in the tipping-point state.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mallenu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2000 also had the "hanging chads" issue and confusing ballots that potentially caused people to choose a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifferent candidate from what they wanted.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwernercd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m2020 has ballots after the election day… Hanging chads were at least GUARENTEED to be cast before election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe race to change laws in various states at the last minute has guaranteed a faught and without hesitation⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mleaves open the charge of fraud.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is zero reason why America shouldn't have VoterID free to all and sanity checks at the voter booth to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mguarentee 150+ year olds don't vote.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.indiarightnownews.com/seven-voters-older-than-th…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe charges of fraud are only going to worse the longer those in power don't take real steps to fix the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0missues.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjansan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m* Trump's legal cases (thus far) have been judged by experts to be far less serious*⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTell us more, where are the details of that legal case?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mgranzymes[0m [31mOP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mapnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-electi…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2020/11/06/us/politics/trump-electio…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.abc.net.au/news/2020-11-06/supreme-court-probabl…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.cnn.com/2020/11/06/politics/lawsuits-trump-gop-p…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mabcnews.go.com/Politics/judges-evidence-trump-campai…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmalcolmgreaves[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe sued to stop counting legally cast ballots in states he [3mwas[0m winning (PA,MI,WI) while suing other states⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto recount where he was loosing (AZ,GA, etc.).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's both a contradictory argument and obviously illegal: you can't stop a state's election board from⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcounting the already cast ballots.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mguscost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell they’re going to try to challenge lots of mail-in ballots that were either processed without poll⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwatchers being able to see the signatures, or allegedly backdated by USPS, for a start. The first suit will⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe filed on Monday according to Giuliani. We’ll see how far it goes, but should be fun.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is just announced today so I’m not sure how “experts” could have weighed in already, whatever that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmeans.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtptacek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe big difference is that 2000 revolved around a disputed recount, in a race with a margin of fewer than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1000 votes. There will be recounts in this race, but:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(1) There's no reason to believe they'll change the outcome much (recounts in 2016 didn't) --- states have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlearned since 2000 and have moved away from faulty ballot designs.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(2) The recounts will be occurring in multiple states, and Trump needs to sweep them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(3) The margins in those recounts are much bigger than in 2000 --- tens of thousands of votes, not hundreds.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjcranmer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe biggest factor in Florida is that the ballot marking system that Florida used at that time was extremely⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprone to failure, especially with regards to machine reading of ballots (which itself could cause an apparent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmark on the ballot!). This means that trying to divine whether or not a ballot recorded an intent to vote⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor a candidate can be subjective and depends on the exact standard you want to use, which Florida didn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mspecify (and the Florida Supreme Court ruled was ultimately too vague).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSince 2000, most states have switched to optical scan ballots as their paper records. These ballots have much⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlower error rates, closer to 1 error per million votes. I don't think there's been a single race using⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moptical scan ballots where a recount actually caused a winner to switch.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnother thing that complicated this was that the way you punched the ballot resulted in the chad going into⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma waste bin. Those waste bins would fill up to the point where it would physically prevent you from being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mable to punch out your chad.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat election and SCOTUS ruling was a mess, and as a consequence did a lot of damage to this countries⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minstitutions.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mliquidgecka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's more nuanced than that. Gore wanted some select counties recounted, bush wanted no counties recounted,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbut if there was going to be a rexound then bush wanted the whole state recounted. In the end the SCbrules⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat the 14th amendment said that including votes with "hanging Chad's" and other clear intent required the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhole state to be recounted. Gore conceeded because there wasn't enough time and he believed that a whole⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstate recount wouldn't have favored him in the end. History reflects that it may have been a bad strategy for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGore to try and recount just some counties because he may well have won if he argued for a state wide⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrecount from the beginning.⁣
  ⁣
   [1manonAndOn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo. For the many reasons others have noted and the elimination of the "hanging chad". [[37m0[0m]⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m][34mwww.npr.org/2018/11/12/666812854/the-florida-recount…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mMisterBastahrd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLook at it logically. Bush was ahead by 537 votes. The court wrangling happened for so long and there were so⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmany delays that it was impossible to do a recount in time for the legally mandated date of certification.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden is ahead here. Even if you remove PA or AZ, he'd still have enough electoral votes to win.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe's going to be President. The only person who doesn't get that at this point is Trump, and everyone around⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhim is just bowing to his whims.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmkolodny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Associated Press, who called the election this year, and who has been calling US elections since 1848,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdidn't call the election for either side in 2000:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"AP did not call the closely contested race in 2000 between George W. Bush and Al Gore – we stood behind our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0massessment that the margin in Florida made it too close to call."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.ap.org/en-us/topics/politics/elections/how-we-ca…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe sad part is that the popular vote has a much cleaner margin, and going forward this is what medias should⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreport if people want change.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjkinudsjknds[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo. Biden is likely to win across multiple states by a large margin, notably in PA where he is above the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpoint that would require a recount.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjungletime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, I think so.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFact is that mail in voting has been banned in European countries and elections overturned because its much⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0measier to cheat.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI would need more some statistical evidence. So far I have seen graphs pointing out how Biden's tally doesn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfollow Benford’s Law.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mprincipia-scientific.com/joe-bidens-votes-violate-be…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"Michigan County Clerk Admits Voting Software Glitch "Skewed" Results, Trump To Gain 6,000 Votes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mthefederalistpapers.org/us/michigan-county-clerk-adm…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is going to go in front of the Supreme Court. Twitter should not be trying to hide the fact that one of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe parties claims fraud. A huge number of people voted for Trump. Let him make his case.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy Gut instinct is that it is suspicious that some democratic counties got 90% turnout.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mMrBuddyCasino[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media also called Tilden over Hayes in 1876 and Dewey over Truman in the 1940s. Its almost as if they're⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot the ones to decide the winner of an election.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjansan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, at least in theory. The simple reason is that in the end not the media, but the courts will decide.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mspankalee[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCourts do not typically decide elections.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mCalChris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mBush v Gore[0m ordered that the recount be stopped.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msergiotapia[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think this is all anyone is really asking for.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmaxerickson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs yet, no court is adjudicating an issue that impacts a large number of ballots.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mState election systems will decide the election.⁣
  ⁣
     [1munethical_ban[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMost are asking for the people to decide.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd if the people truly and directly got to decide the president, this post would have been made on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWednesday morning.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mPensacola[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSkimming through this thread, it certainly verges on flame - but I'd just like to remind you all that
  [0mofficially, Biden hasn't won yet. Several (not all) media outlets have called the race, and it sure looks like
  [0mhe will; but the elections haven't yet been certified. With the coming legal challenges, it looks a lot like
  [0m2000. Patience.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwebkike[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt really does not. Florida was the deciding factor and was an extremely small margin we don’t see here.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mPensacola[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause the results are very close and several lawsuits are ongoing over the election outcome in several⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbattlefield states, it’s more and more clear that this election will be settled through the judicial system.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwebkike[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe results were very close in Florida as in less than a thousand votes. All of the states here the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifference is nowhere near that. Recounts typically change vote counts by less than these amounts. I do not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthink the judicial system will decide this. In fact, I believe their impact will be near zero.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msvara[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe sentiment of mutual understanding accross polticial lines expressed in many comments here is beautiful.
  [0m
  [0mHowever, let's not forget that on election night the current US president clearly proved his staunchest
  [0mcritics right.
  [0m
  [0mWhat might have happened if Fox News had adopted his "stolen election" narrative?
  [0m
  [0mThis is, quite literally, how autocratic strongmen destroy their countries for personal gain. There's more
  [0mthan enough historical precedent from around the world to know the playbook.

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbrandall10[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI watched Fox News all morning yesterday. I couldn’t believe how much it resembled the other networks.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe GOP is also relatively mum. I’m thinking that I’m some sense, many of these folks are secretly hoping for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe end of Trumpism, that a more normal GOP may return.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSV_BubbleTime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2msecretly[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m… this has been something the left has failed to understand for 5 years at now.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTHE GOP NEVER WANTED TRUMP. Why do you think the DNC has “super delegates”? Exactly to prevent what Trump⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdid.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe establishment GOP hates Trump as much as anyone on “the left”.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat’s been a constant annoyance to me when people conflate the two.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you have someone that routines trashes the GOP… they should be positive to neutral about Trump.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTHE GOP NEVER WANTED TRUMP. Why do you think the DNC has “super delegates”? Exactly to prevent what Trump[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdid.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell, no, the superdelegates are principally (solely, now that post-2016 their first ballkt voting powers⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave been limited to situations where they don't matter) to prevent an extended convention battle in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mevent of a failure of a clear majority.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe GOP tried to avoid the same problem without superdelegates by building a system that creates a strong⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0martificial majority out of plurality support, to force a quick decision for the early leader (which Trump⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbenefited from, because the establishment didn't really have it's act together to [3meffectively[0m push a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mclearly preferred candidate at the outset, and ended up chasing the early leaders tail the whole election⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith a succession of different favored alternatives.)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe establishment GOP hates Trump as much as anyone on “the left”.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe old GOP establishment might. The party-in-government (GOP members in elective office don't), the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mevidence of which is them staying in the Party when Trump took it over. For dissatisfaction with a party⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor more mild than what the left has for Trump, officeholders leave and become independents or even flip to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe other party; if establishment members of the GOP in government hated Trump even with ⅒ th the fury the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLeft has for Trump, or even that the center-right Democratic establishment does, they'd have all left, and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meither become independents, joined the Democrats or, given how many of them there would be if it really⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas the whole establishment, formed their own party.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mInstead, they immediately dropped most of their pre-nomination complaints and jumped on board, because⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhile he might not be their favorite, he's a devil they have no real problem living and working with.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwhytaka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is literally the biggest surprise for me this election. That Murdoch withheld the coup.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mreducesuffering[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile Murdoch holds and supports the spread of staunchly conservative views, I don't think he wants to go⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdown in the history books as attempting to plunge the US into dictatorship.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mSV_BubbleTime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHow would Trump winning the election be plunging the US into a dictatorship?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdeftnerd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI've always felt that the Trump presidency served as an effective form of "Chaos Engineering". Regardless of
  [0myour views of Trump's politics, his administration and method of leadership has exposed a lot of flaws in how
  [0mour government has been designed and engineered.
  [0m
  [0mThe postmortem of the last 4 years should be analyzed deeply in order to identify the weak points in the
  [0minfrastructure of our government in order to make improvements.
  [0m
  [0mTrump has been a very effective chaos monkey.

                                                  [1m▶ 216 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 216 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor me, the icing on the cake was the press conference at Four Seasons Landscaping.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSomeone made a silly mistake in the booking, but either nobody noticed, or couldn't be bothered to correct⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit, or dared not be the one to tell Trump the mistake had been made. So the President (staff? apparently not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhim) gives a final press conference in the parking lot of a suburban store. It would be like watching the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEmperor of Japan surrender in a dinghy because somebody brought the wrong [3mMissouri[0m.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnforced error. Abandonment of dignity. Refusal to acknowledge the situation. Hallmarks of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0madministration.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(News accuracy notice: while it appears to have been an official press conference only Guiliani was actually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthere and not Trump himself)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSkyPuncher[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"Book it at the Four Season", "No, not that one", "Yes, the random landscaping company".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI personally cannot tell if it was intentional. Trump has held a lot of events at businesses that I wouldn't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtraditionally expect to hold the event. The name overlap is very interesting, though.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjasoncartwright[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis Philadelphia Inquirer journalist says that the hotel was announced first, but then it was changed⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/jeremyrroebuck/status/132509276171710464…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmjlawson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI honestly wonder if it was originally booked at the Four Seasons hotel, but Trump vetoed that idea because⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof his stake in Trump Hotels.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmcshicks[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWas he there? I watched for a few minutes and it just seemed like it was Guliani bringing poll watchers to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msay how they felt their rights to observe was infringed.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mApparently not, so I've made an edit.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkzrdude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"final" press conference - just so that you're not disapointed later, but Trump is president until 20th of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjanuary, so he has some time yet to make announcements when he wants to.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mBlackjackCF[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI love to think that it's because 1) nobody else would take them 2) the campaign is out of money so this is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe only Four Seasons they could afford.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maugustt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI didn't know about this - thank you. I am overdosing on schadenfreude.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnallo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne thing I would like to tell democrats now that you are WINNERS. And I mean it with all well being. Is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat I think you should really not focus on your opponent but on your own candidate and party. We are all⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjust humans in the end.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbarrenko[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mReally so what? This obsession with dignity in politics is peasant, like most of them are half ass decent.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjstarfish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's kind of a hallmark of diplomacy. Leadership should not be as uncouth as the peasantry.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe was chaotic and ineffectual and mostly focused on dumb peeves. But I do think he got some good ideas⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthrough the conventional “wisdom”. His execution on everything was poor.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m  Good new ideas:[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2mFocus on China as an existential threat to US hegemony.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJust freaking get out of the Middle East already.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGlobalization has not been good for the working and middle class.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmullingitover[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGlobalization has lifted billions from poverty. While it didn't benefit the US middle class in a direct,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore money in their pockets way, it did likely prevent horrific wars that ravaged the world in the last⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcentury. It's bad business to nuke your customers. So the US middle class did benefit from not being drafted⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minto the global mega-conflicts we avoided.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing? What good is it for the 96% of the world that is not the US? Does it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meven benefit anyone outside the US ruling class?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrayiner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing? What good is it for the 96% of the world that is not the US? Does[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mit even benefit anyone outside the US ruling class.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’m from Bangladesh. The US backed world order has been amazing for the country. The World Bank and IMF⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave helped countries like Bangladesh modernize their economies, and they’re US-led institutions.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs the US pulls out, China displaces it. In Bangladesh, Chinese investment is flowing in, along with middle⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meastern culture. Neither of those things are good in my opinion.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don’t think the US needs to continue footing the bill alone. But the other western powers don’t seem⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minterested in helping. When I think about what I want the future of Bangladesh to look like in 50 years, I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwant it to be basically like the US or Canada, only with different food and religious holidays and movies⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand literature. And that seemed like the future in the 1990s, but it’s getting cloudy today.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmatt_o[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing? What good is it for the 96% of the world that is not the US?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo paraphrase Churchill: "The US hegemony is the worst hegemony for the world, except for all the other⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhegemonies."⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe US retreating into isolationism would likely open up a vacuum eagerly filled in by less, well,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mliberal-minded states. The globalization you describe was pushed by the US-EU-(Japan/India/etc.) alliance,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith the US's armed forced being the big stick in case someone would object. At least this is my current⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munderstanding.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mThrowawayR2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"Also, why is US hegemony a good thing?"[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you review history, large wars broke out between the major powers vying for dominance on a regular basis⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min the 19th and early 20th century, culminating in the First and Second World Wars. For all the negatives⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof what the US has done with its military since then, they're not a hundredth as bad as what went on before⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mby any objective measure.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe [3mPax Americana[0m has been good for stability and with stability comes prosperity. If the United States⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtruly gave up its hegemony and turned isolationist, you'd see a resurgence of rearmament and jockeying for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpower among nations, inevitably followed by a new era of war after war.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowaway5752[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNo particular fan of the current administration here, nor do I disagree with you much.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut you have to understand, the shift of manufacturing from the US has just devastated the economies of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mentire regions. You have children fleeing where their families have lived for generations. I'm convinced a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfactor in opiates getting a toehold in these areas was due to people going on disability to try to stay⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meconomically afloat, and getting prescribed painkillers as cover for faked injuries or in recovery for real⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut unneccessary surgeries (I have no proof, just anecdata).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUS hegemony was good for them. It helped payed their mortgages and their kids' tuitions. It's easy to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmagnanimous when you aren't the one losing your house or kids aren't ODing from fentanyl. And the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresentment is real when you see new grads at Google or Facebook making 10 times what you make, or CEOs⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaking 1000 times what you make.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0medit: the president did little, if anything to help their situation and channeled that resentment for his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mown benefit. It is a matter of national security that we all fix this and I hope the new administration⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill prioritize it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlaverya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing? What good is it for the 96% of the world that is not the US? Does[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mit even benefit anyone outside the US ruling class?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs you alluded to in the previous paragraph, it's good for people because it means we're not participating⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min the kind of horrific wars that ravaged the world in the century before. And the US has been far less⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mextractive than previous global hegemons. (So in that sense it's worse for US citizens, but better for the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrest of the world)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNow, everything is a tradeoff, and perhaps this particular tradeoff hasn't been worth it. But there are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmost certainly good things that US hegemony has given the world.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGlobalization has lifted billions from poverty.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere, I reordered things for you to answer your own question. 😊⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnewsclues[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGlobalization transfer middle class jobs/wealth out of America allowing the upper class to gain a larger⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mshare of the profit, relying on the state to support the growing lower class but without a large middle⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mclass tax base.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDon’t you see the problem here?⁣
  ⁣
     [1msatisfaction[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe important question is when does it end, the economists that promoted globalization have come forward⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand admitted that it hurt the US more than planned.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDoes it only end when the US population is in the state that the poor Chinese, et al. farmers were in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbefore we accepted this globalism?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAt some point we have to stop and say, "OK, we gave you a leg up now let's spend a few decades and rebuild⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mour own country". This is not what is proposed by Democrat politicians, they propose we continue to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtransfer wealth (in many forms) to other countries and fill the income gap that is produced with social⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwelfare programs.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mspicyramen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI second that US policy in American continent has been very infective that still hundreds of thousands⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmigrate to US because their countries hasnt been developed. Let's take aside Civil war in Guatemala,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSalvador and Nicaragua. Migrants flood because their local governments can't produce jobs not guarantee⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbasic safety. US trains armies and send equipment through the PPP plan which got not results. Trump idea⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas to stop migration and the delegation of responsability back which results in basic jobs available for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mamericans, force those countries to develop and at the end you can help them with investment in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minfrastructure with private money no government tax payer money.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat's what bothers me with the world at the moment, we have powerful states fighting for their hegemony⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(sometimes with nuclear weapons), not thinking at all about the earth as a unified place full with people⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand not citizen of whatever country.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdqv[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs there a reason you ommitted the working class from your comment? I find it odd you're addressing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meverything the parent said except for how globalization affects the working class.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmanigandham[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUS hegemony is also called Pax Americana. A global peace that has lasted for an average lifetime now.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWould you prefer China or Russia instead?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtibiapejagala[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe if you live in US you can afford to not care, but I live in a weak, poor, corrupted country. For us⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit's either US, Russia (now) or China (in the long run) and I prefer US after all.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msrtjstjsj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso, why is US hegemony a good thing?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou yourself just wrote a the answer: it prevents wars.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mFocus on China as an existential threat to US hegemony[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis was already being done. That was the whole point of the end of the Obama admins shift to Asia strategy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mJust freaking get out of the Middle East already.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTroop levels are the same today as they were in 2020. And I also don't think this is a novel idea, everyone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwants out, but you have to do it in a way that doesn't leave us in a worst situation than just staying, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat is ridiculously hard. Nature abhors a vacuum.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGlobalization has not been good for the working and middle class.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is a mixed bag. Look around and tell me that the general middle class American is worst off than they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwere in any other decade of modern America. We live safer, cleaner lives. What we don't feel is security,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhich is a consequence of 40 years of treating the government as an entity that is the problem, and not an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mentity that can be the solution.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjessaustin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mLook around and tell me that the general middle class American is worst off than they were in any other[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mdecade of modern America.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwtfhappenedin1971.com/[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLook around and tell me that the general middle class American is worst off than they were in any other[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdecade of modern America[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFunny, my whole generation has basically given up on basics like owning a house completely. But we got cool⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtech gadgets so it all evens out?⁣
  ⁣
     [1m0x445442[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLook around and tell me that the general middle class American is worst off than they were in any other[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdecade of modern America[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey're not even close to being as well off as they were up until the ~80's - 90's.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mstarfallg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis was already being done. That was the whole point of the end of the Obama admins shift to Asia[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mstrategy.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExactly. You can do this the smart way, by gathering partners and encircling China with something like the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTPP, or you can do it the dumb way, by picking stupid playground fights.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne is effective and the other is just for show.⁣
  ⁣
    [1melindbe2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrue, it's important to remember that every president for the last couple decades except Trump has involved⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mus in some new armed conflict, mostly with poor results for the country. I hope that Biden will continue on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthis front where Trump left off.⁣
  ⁣
     [1midoh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI hope it is true but doesn’t seem likely. Biden did support war with Iraq, and seems cut from the same⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcloth as Obama / Clinton / etc.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mandi999[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd not just by accident. This has always been Trumps policy and election promise.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbawolff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not sure those are new ideas, people have wanted to get out of the middle east since even the bush era,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand china has been increasing its sphere of influence and on the road to be second super power for a while⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnow. Similarly whether or not globalization is good for the working class or just makes the rich get richer⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas been publicly debated the entire time i have been alive.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think the main difference is that trump decided to take tactical action on these positions without regards⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor the strategic long term consequences, which other presidents have been unwilling to do (except the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mglobalisation point, i think most previous really liked globalisation and werent just worried about the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsequences)⁣
  ⁣
     [1maksss[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA dimension we under-appreciate is how much fail we’ve been tolerating for decades.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe quest to keep NK from going nuclear started decades ago and spanned administrations from both parties,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand finally failed miserably and objectively before Trump got into office. This, despite all best efforts⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrom the best minds. The status quo was hardly a defensible glide path.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSimilarly, we’ve been after real change in the Mideast for decades across multiple admins from both⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mparties. We’ve never had movement. I’m not saying that the Abraham Accords fix everything, but getting four⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnations to finally recognize the right of Israel to exist and engage in trade and cultural exchange is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcertainly visible change. Energy independence also helps lessen our conflict of interest there. That’s⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvisible change that was seemingly unobtainium for decades. Circumstance and technology have their role in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis, but there are also specific policy and regulatory frameworks that will make or break this new path⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mover coming years.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mChina.. I think there’s consensus that Kissinger’s laissez faire approach to opening China has not produced⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe intended outcome. Basically we’ve taken a totalitarian and repressive state and made them a rich⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtotalitarian and repressive state.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo point being that the status quo - the unmovable track our foreign policy was on for decades regardless⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof president - was due for a shake up. It will be interesting to see what Biden does - revert to old paths,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mor take advantage of the new paths?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlghh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mJust freaking get out of the Middle East already.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think this is the biggest place where he said one thing, then immediately did another. We are involved in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe Middle East as we ever were, and much much more so with more disastrous effects in places like Yemen.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US' involvement in Yemen should be enough to laugh Trump offstage any time he talks about "getting out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof the middle east".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPlease please please don't let him off the hook for this by saying he had "good ideas" here when he was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtalking out of one side of his mouth while civilian families are being slaughtered.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhgoury[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou could also point out that he has abandoned the kurds in Syria (Rojava), where they are losing ground⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0magainst the turkish army and their jihadist mercenaries. They are about to ethnically cleanse the region,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith dramatic consequences for the autonomous zone that has developed a seemingly fair democracy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe military branch of the PYD party was crucial during the fight against ISIS. Leaving them to die in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mErdogan's hands is tragic.⁣
  ⁣
     [1maksss[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m“As we ever were” - I’m not sure what you mean by that. We’ve been involved in the Middle East⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msubstantially since oil exploration there started showing results.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEnergy independence from the ME is a reliable quality by which the US (and others) will care less about the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregion. But this also means leaving the regional developed powers to manage the area with greater and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgreater autonomy (e.g. Israel and SA).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo that end, we are arguably less “involved” today. Our dependence on that oil and our direct action⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minvolvement there are directly related.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBy the numbers, we are less involved than in, say, 2005 if the US body count is the metric. If civilian⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeaths are the metric, Iraq’s numbers have fallen off a cliff since 2017 [[37m0[0m]. I would guess the same for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSyria but don’t have data at hand.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s tough to want it both ways - asking the US to intervene for peace but not spill any blood. If the ME⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtells us anything, it’s that peace does not come from doing nothing - it is not the region’s default state⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgiven the cultural animosities. Stability seems the best chance for civilian peace there. The US is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mincreasingly delegating or abdicating that role to the most friendly options available.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHow would you prefer that the trajectory change? More direct “peacekeeping” involvement? Total abandonment⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhile watching a regional death match play out?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.statista.com/statistics/269729/documented-civili…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowaway6734[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGlobalization has not been good for the working and middle class.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis seems overly simplistic. Globalization has led to a drop in the cost of many goods as well as multiple⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnew markets for US industries.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think there's a reasonable argument to be made that the spoils of globalization have not been shared as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfairly as they should of, but imo that's way more linked to other policies (like tax rates & spending)⁣
  ⁣
    [1msilvestrov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso: He didn't start yet another new war.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlghh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWars are no longer called wars. The US is much more involved in the civilian slaughter happening in Yemen,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwe just don't call it a "war" to save face. Don't call this a victory for him, he'll rest in hell for the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdamage he's done here alone.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrightbyte[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump's most underrated feat during his presidency. We will see how Biden fare on that, starting the count⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon two (?).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAlso: He didn't start yet another new war.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe didn't, but he did abandon the Kurds:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-features/trum…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34mwww.cato.org/publications/commentary/yes-donald-trum…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHelping his Turkish buddy to be able to go after them.⁣
  ⁣
     [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe did however through incompetence and neglect see more Amerians die from Covid during his tenure than a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhole lot of wars.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAcrobatic_Road[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNot yet he hasn't but don't count your chickens.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIsn't it congress that starts wars?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmmastrac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe lucked out that his actions in Iran didn't start one.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtasogare[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhich is, for an US president, an almost unbelievable thing. Especially since he could have used the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIranian missile attacks on US bases to start a war there. He should get a peace Nobel prize for his actions⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtowards world stability, which also includes his efforts to discuss with North Korea (official visit⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere!) and the arms sell to Taiwan.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwonnage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US hegemony exists because we have projected military force across the world, and our companies are the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprimary driver of globalization. Leaving the Middle East would end any dream of bringing those regions under⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe western umbrella (as has been successfully done in S. Korea and Japan). Ending globalization would end⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe thing that has made US corporations uniquely successful, and which makes US economic sanctions so⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstrong.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd focusing on China as the new red scare would (is already?) simply result in a new Cold War, to nobody's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbenefit.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI personally don't think the US has any business [3mbeing[0m hegemon (feel free to check my post history), but if⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myour primary interest is maintaining the position of the US from ~1992-2016, then your best bet is to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmaintain the foreign and economic policy of those times, which is basically what Biden is promising to do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdantheman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDepends on where you draw the line on the working class; if anything the working class worldwide has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexploded as more people have left poverty in the past 20 years than in the past 100.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowaway894345[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPresumably "the US working class". Globalization has enriched the wealthiest Americans and the global poor⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mat the expense of working Americans, and that's a pretty awful charity program IMO.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msolidsnack9000[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's not the purpose of the elected representatives of the US to advance the interests of people outside⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe US to the detriment of US citizens.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mapi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGlobalization has been awful for the working class in the developed world.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhef19898[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWasn't the previous admin already focused on China / the Pacific region already? I do have to agree on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlast point, so. And I say that as a globalist, free trade proponent and a supply chain guy. So in a sense,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mglobalization is my job. And while a lot of people, also in developing countries, have profited from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mglobalization, we all have to find ways to adopt the way we do things to get of the less than good parts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI do think that a lot of people had these things on their agenda already. We didn't need Trump to come to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthese conclusions. Because he might have gotten the issues right, but didn't really understand them nor did⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhe care about solutions.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso, he didn't get out of the Middle East, he just picked a side. Not sure what that means for the region.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlumost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNot a fan of the current (soon to be previous) admin, but I have to acknowledge that a direct approach on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mChina has been more effective than the last 3 decades of Asian pivots ( Bill Clinton tried focusing on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mChina as well ).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerican politics has brief focus windows, direct action has more impact than vague "pivots" or "focuses"⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhich last about as long as the next crisis.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhedora[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMany of your goals could be accomplished by transitioning to a carbon-negative (positive?) economy that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcaptures more carbon than it emits.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEnergy independence helps us avoid relying on chinese solar panels and middle eastern oil.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBuilding carbon capture infrastructure in the US means the jobs would be here. Delaying means eventually⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpumping unprecedented amounts of money into whatever other country gets there first (probably China).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwyldfire[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGlobalization is demonized but it's a natural consequence of technology. It's easier than ever to work with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproduction facilities around the world. We can't stop businesses from exploring more efficient production.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut we can and should level the playing field. One contributor to the difference in wages for manufacturing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0memployees is the lack of regulations and protections for workers in countries like China. Treaties that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msupport trade are one way to level the playing field. TPP had a bunch of bad stuff in it too, so perhaps not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma net win.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmaxerickson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe much maligned TPP was aimed right at China. It was big business friendly, but it also encouraged the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mother large economies in the Pacific to align themselves with the US instead of China.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjtitor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mActually, focusing on attacking china is a big mistake of this admin. It accelerates the decline of US⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhegemony as we know it. The best strategy for US is to maintain the current world order with China. Only the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mweaker countries "behind" US/China, e.g. India/Japan/Vietnam/Taiwan, would want the two countries to fight⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit out so they can benefit. And there are people in the US who believe a trade and technology war with china⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis easy to win, which are proven wrong.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdownandout[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt appears that we will go from "chaotic and ineffectual" to just ineffectual. Assuming that Republicans⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmaintain control of the Senate, he can suggest all the leftist ideas he wants, but nothing will get done.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat concerns me is that just as Trump's election encouraged the proliferation of racism, Biden's election⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwill encourage the proliferation of cancel/woke culture, which will lead to even more division than we have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munder Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmatwood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree that Trump is right that something more needed to be done with China. But like most of what he did,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhis execution was terrible. His need to take credit and inability to work with anyone wouldn’t let him get⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mout of his own way. Hopefully Biden takes the idea and works with legislation and our allies to put more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpressure on China.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGlobalization and isolation have two sides, neither of which is all pro or con.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m01100011[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm looking forward to Trump's caustic personality leaving the equation so we can finally talk about these⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthings in a more neutral way. A lot of people, myself included, cannot look past Trump's obvious flaws⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdespite some of his ideas(at least the overall direction, maybe not the execution) being worth considering.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mDSingularity[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou think this will happen? The political right have openly embraced demagoguery, authoritarianism,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdisinformation, and a scorched-earth, because-we-can style of politics. The media have embraced the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0moutrage-factory model for improving as revenues. The electorate have committed to becoming single issue⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvoters. And finally, who benefits the most from this quagmire? The corporate elite who fear the threat of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernment intervention in free markets.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcm2012[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExcept number of troops in the middle east is the same. Just moved from Iraq and Afghanistan to Saudi⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mArabia.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgarmaine[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso space policy. Trump-Pence space policy has been tremendously successful.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mromanoderoma[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe end of US egemony could be good for the middle class outside of the US, especially South America and the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMiddle East.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNot saying it will, but that during the unrivaled US egemony after the end of the cold war things have been⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mworse for the middle/poor segment of society, especially in the west.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCould be a coincidence, could be bad luck, could be a correlation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mURfejk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUS hegemony is already gone.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbumby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWho has replaced the US in this regard?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think you can make a strong case US hegemony may be in decline, but it’s harder to claim it’s gone⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmarktangotango[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe US eleven aircraft carrier battle groups tend to disagree.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcecja[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou really can't blame a globalization for the raid of the upper class on the middle class.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrimethink352[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mFocus on China as an existential threat to US hegemony.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPhrasing it that way is unfair. Trump held China accountable for its mercantilist trade practices.⁣
  ⁣
    [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNone of those ideas are new, and, he didnt really do anything constructive in any of those areas. But yeah⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthose thoughts are worth thinking 😊⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkoolba[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHe was chaotic and ineffectual and mostly focused on dumb peeves. But I do think he got some good ideas[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthrough the conventional “wisdom”. His execution on everything was poor.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIneffectual? I’d argue he’s one of the most consequential Presidents of the past 100 years.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe reshaped the federal bench, confirmed a 6-3 majority on the SCOTUS, overhauled the tax code, negotiated⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmultiple Middle East peace deals, repealed and replaced NAFTA, and didn’t start a single foreign war.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis impact on the US political system will be felt for generations. Compare that to 8 years of Obama that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan’t point to any meaningful accomplishment.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway894345[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI've actually had a related but perhaps converse opinion: it's demonstrated the resilience of our government.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA lot of people have been noting his authoritarian tendencies and expressing concern that he might refuse to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0macknowledge election results, and while that appears to be the case, there's no indication that he will have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis way (apart from legal proceedings, which are a perfectly democratic [albeit petulant] way to contest⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melection results). In some countries, a president demanding a stop to vote counting might get their way, but⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat didn't happen here, and it's good to know that for the endless flack (some fair and some not) America⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand Americans get, we still have a robust political system.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcknoxrun[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree it has demonstrated resilience, a positive thing indeed. But I think it's good to consider what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwould happen in other countries should a character like Trump be elected. In Canada, a polarizing character⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlike Trump would be exceedingly unlikely to form a majority government. As a minority government, they would⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe subject to "no-confidence" votes regularly. When a government passes a budget for example, if the budget⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoes not pass the house, the government automatically crumbles and an election is called. Additionally, as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe prime minister is simply the head of the party, his vote carries no more weight than other members, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhe can be fired by his own party at any time.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA lot of checks and balances are baked into a multi-party system. One inherent advantage is less⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolarization, as there are more parties to represent the various views of the people. However, there are of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcourse a lot of improvements that could be made to the Canadian governance system (ditching first past the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpost for example), but I do believe this style of government is more resilient than the US system.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAt the same time, our government has not, and will likely not, be put to the test by someone like Trump. It⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis commendable that the US system has withstood what many feared could be the start of the downfall of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdemocracy in the US.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWe've seen what happens when a Trump figure is elected in the UK: there are no real checks and balances.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOnce an electoral majority was achieved, anything is possible, including a bill to specifically authorize⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlaw enforcement to commit crimes.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOn the other hand, Biden has come out backing Ireland. Which is good for sanity and bad for Johnson.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mCameronNemo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI really wish that a failed impeachment would result in new elections for the House and President. Seems⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlike the only logical conclusion when the democratic chamber of the legislature and the pseudo-democratic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexecutive are at odds.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbrobdingnagians[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBBC is reporting that he has already told his staff to begin logistical preparations to hand over to Biden.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe disagrees with the results, he will do lawsuits, but it doesn't look like he'll do anything more than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat. So far, that proves all the naysayers wrong who accused him of trying to not transfer power when not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mre-elected.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo be fair, he did say “There won’t be a transfer, frankly. There will be a continuation.”⁣
  ⁣
     [1msrtjstjsj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mquietly making preparations doesn't outweigh repeatedly and incessantly lying to public about the operation⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof and outcome of the election, nor sending his supporters to attack vote-counting stations.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mx86_64Ubuntu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'll believe it when it's said and done. As of now, nothing has changed to his day-to-day, his life is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcontinuing on as if the election happens. As everything winds down, and it sets in that he will be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvulnerable to the investigations from NY along with loans coming due that he simply can't pay he may lash⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mout. I've felt the interregnum period will be the most dangerous for the country, moreso than the previous⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m3+ years.⁣
  ⁣
     [1memn13[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think anybody reasonably believed president Trump would have actually not relinquished power if he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mformally[0m lost the election. What he was accused of however, is [3mtrying[0m to play nasty with votes, and [3mtrying[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto undermine the legitimacy of his loss. To put it another way: it's not that he wouldn't transfer power,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut rather that he's willing to play dirty to [3mtry[0m not to transfer power.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe reason why it was never realistic to believe he wouldn't step aside is simply that he does not have the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupport to pull that off; it's essentially a kind of civil war but one he (and any other president) would⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlikely lose almost instantly - as long as it's [3mclear[0m he lost the election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd that's why it's so insidious to undermine the election, because that will eventually pave the way to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mactually[0m ignore election outcomes. Even today, I suspect in all the partisan posturing some voters may have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcome away with the honest impression that there really was a stolen election. Since democracy hinges on⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mthe losing side[0m accepting that loss, action that undermine that are quite problematic.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPresident Trump's action so far, both before the election and after, are entirely in line with the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maccusations against him; in essence: he's willing to undermine democracy to try and hold on to power.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHad the election been closer, it's conceivable he might really have engineered some legal shenanigans to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtry and steal the election. And if he had been backed in that (which isn't entirely impossible, because⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msome of the toss-up states have republican-appointed courts, republican legislatures, and republican⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernors, and of course the heavily tilted supreme court now), [3mthen[0m things would have gotten dicey. In⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat situation, just like in other strong-man democracies, the outcome of the election would have been⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrigged. Would democrats have backed down? Or would they have disputed the elections, even though formally⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthey lost them? That's the kind of thing that breaks a democracy; because both backing down and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconfrontation are terrible outcomes.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo their credit - because that's how it's supposed to work in a democracy - those toss-up states did not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mseriously try to steal votes (although the vote-segregation thing is pretty close). And of course we don't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3mknow[0m Trump would really have stolen the election, given the opportunity, since it never arose. But we can⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msee that he took all possible steps in that direction at least; and that's something the US needs to deal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith in the future for the sake of stability. It ended well this time; it might not every time.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrightbyte[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m(apart from legal proceedings, which are a perfectly democratic [albeit petulant] way to contest election[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mresults)[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBush vs. Gore in Florida 2000 comes to mind.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdehrmann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's worth taking a look at [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_United_States_presidentia…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's really not clear who should have won. There are different outcomes from different groups with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifferent, but reasonable, interpretations of what the voter intended.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoverholt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJust curious, can you Please give some examples of his authoritarian tendencies?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowaway894345[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDemanding a stop to vote counting mid-election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI want to live in a country where we accept the results of a democratic process instead of spreading⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconspiracy theories, and yes, that goes for the Russia collusion conspiracy theories and the general "we're⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgoing to burn this mf-er to the ground if the election doesn't go our way" sentiments as well.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcult of personality, attacking the press, denying everything, attacking the legitimacy of our voting⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msystem, creating division by refusing to unify people, shouting "law & order" to position himself as the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0monly solution against chaos, inciting young supporters to push his agenda with more violence (akin to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhitler youth), etc.⁣
  ⁣
     [1midoh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump talks like an authoritarian, but his actual actions have been mainly to reduce the power of a central⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernment, like appointing federalist judges, dismantling federal departments, etc. So the opposite of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhat an authoritarian would do.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjessaustin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe pandemic, if anything, has proved the "authoritarian" diagnosis to be false. Authoritarians love to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave an excuse to lock everyone up in their homes and decide from on high which businesses will be allowed⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto operate. Trump OTOH was like "math is tough; let the states handle it!"⁣
  ⁣
     [1msharatvir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTear-gassing protestors for a photo-op.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mproverbialbunny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne particularly scary one is 60 minutes recorded footage of rally of Trump supporters, where many of them⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon their Trump flags had fascist symbolism. This spiked a fear of fascism growing in America.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn response instead of addressing this growing anti-american anti-democratic minority, instead the news⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdecided to associate anti-fascism with riots, protestors, and other scary negative fear based topics. Now⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe second anyone raises a concern about fascism, supporters will unconsciously turn a blind eye. I'm⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msurprised such word smithing like that works, and frankly I'm scared it does work. I'm terrified that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifferent conservative groups rallied behind not only fascist movements, but invented a boogyman term for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit like antifa as a way to make the topic of fascism partisan and questionable. If that's not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manti-democratic and unamerican I don't know what is.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mproverbialbunny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne particularly scary one is 60 minutes recorded footage of rally of Trump supporters, where many of them⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon their Trump flags had fascist symbolism. 60 minutes did not say a word about this, as the topic they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere covering was different, but regardless, this spiked a fear of fascism growing in America.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn response instead of addressing this growing anti-american anti-democratic minority, the term⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manti-fascist or antifa was created. The idea is if anti-fascism can be associated with riots, protestors,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand other scary negative fear based topics, the second anyone raises a concern about fascism, supporters⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill unconsciously turn a blind eye, because antifa has a negative anti-american sting in their unconscious⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnow. I'm surprised such word smithing like that works, and frankly I'm scared it does work. I'm terrified⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat not only Trump but Fox and other groups would rally behind not only supporting fascist movements, but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minvent a boogyman as a way to make the topic of fascism partisan and questionable. If that's not unamerican⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't know what is.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would recommend finding a news archive of the last 4 years and just watching him?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkllrnohj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe said on stage multiple times that he can do whatever he wants thanks to article 2.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mCameronNemo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mway too much for one comment.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.businessinsider.com/authoritarianism-experts-say…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-09-10/trump-…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/01/democracy-fasc…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdylkil[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthreatening to shoot looters⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjonsno56[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mJust curious, can you Please give some examples of his authoritarian tendencies?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you have a source for this question?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrriepe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe constantly flouted the reigning oligopoly in the media-industry-military complex.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msyshum[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDecentralization, and distributed power is key to the US System⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople need to remember that, no matter who is in power.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe problem is both republicans and democrats "forget" this when they are in power so they attempt to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsolidate it, and believe that consolidation grand the virtuous⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThen when they are out of power, the "other side" using that power become "corrupt and immoral"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJust like the irony that in 2016 the US electron system was so fragile that Russia stole it, at least that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis what he heard for the last 4 years, but now that democrats have won the US Election system is as strong⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mas Plymouth Rock and unwavering in face of people trying to steal it…⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m//for the record I do not think the election was stolen in either 2016 or 2020…..⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJulianMorrison[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI feel like that resilience was draining away. He'd already subverted the DOJ and the supreme court. One⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore term probably would have sealed it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhilbert42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m"Trump has been a very effective chaos monkey"[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm still in shock over how Trump actually managed to get into power. To me, it's still unclear why so many⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually voted for him (it woke me up as to how a large percentage of the American electorate actually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthinks, and for me that's a worry).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're right, the chaos Trump's created has seen a paradigm shift in the way politics is carried out⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meverywhere, and that's likely not a bad thing. Often things need to get worse before a wake-up call turns⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthem around for the better. We'll wait and see.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's initial success, the lemming-like addiction to smartphones/Facebook mania, and the swathes and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mswathes of crazy, mad and irresponsible behaviour I've seen over the last seven or eight months in response⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto COVID-19 has truly shaken my view of humanity. I used to think we humans were smarter than we actually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTo me, it's still unclear why so many actually voted for him[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVoting in the US, especially in general elections, is mostly about tribal identity, which explains a lot of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mthat[0m part of Trump's election, and he was largely a political unknown who's campaign was ambiguous enough⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat people could read what they want into it (By 2020, that last part was no longer true, obviously.) In⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe 2016 primary, he had the ambiguity factor, celebrity, the Republican establishment having trouble⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfiguring out what he was doing, and a Republican Primary system designed to turn early pluralities into⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcommanding delegate leads to avoid long primary fights which backfired spectacularly for the establishment.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhilbert42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn 2016 I put the result down to the general disenchantment in many democratic countries with democracy⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgenerally - similar to the 'logic' behind brexit.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat I can understand but it's the relative closeness of the vote in this election that surprised me.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEarlier I was looking at a live online polling update with maps of both state and popular vote figures. The⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopular vote map was detailed enough for me to drill down to county level and finer. In states like Ohio, N⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDakota and Nebraska with sparce populations and high overall Republican vote one would occasionally (but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot infrequently) come across small settlements of 500/1000 or so only 20/50 miles apart where the vote in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mone was say D-70%, R-28%, Lib-2% and the other almost exactly the opposite with Lib remaining the same at⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mabout 2%.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis seems to backup your tribal identity point very well. Given that these settlements likely have only⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtrees or farmland between them the figures are actually quite startling. I took into account that some may⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave been Native American reservations (which I've not yet ruled out), so I resampled in other states with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlow populations such as Vermont and New Hampshire and found similar instances (of course, with these latter⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minstances the overall state figures had the Democrats in the majority).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese demographics are fascinating to say the least and I'm going to revisit them again shortly.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTrackerFF[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump got into power because he was hailed as a genius business person who would transform the country like⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma good business person would transform a failing company.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople bought into it, because he's probably the most exposed businessman in America - through his brand⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mname, and media appearances.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFurthermore, he was "hard" on certain populist topics like immigration, as well as conservative on more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmainstream topics, like taxes, foreign affairs, etc.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd on the very top of that, the fringes of democratic voters didn't bond with Hilary Clinton getting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mushered in as the presidential candidate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEven Trump didn't believe he'd win in 2016.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpmoriarty[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis reminds me of a story about when Kurt Gödel, who had fled Nazi persecution of Jews in Austria, went to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mapply for US Citizenship.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn the taxi, on the way to the citizenship hearing, Gödel excitedly told his friend Albert Einstein that he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mintended to talk at the hearing of a flaw he had discovered in the US Constitution that could allow a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdictatorship to take over.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEinstein managed to convince Gödel not to talk about that at the citizenship hearing, and just answer to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquestions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut perhaps Gödel wasn't so wrong.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msova[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCould you elaborate on this "flaw?"⁣
  ⁣
     [1mx86_64Ubuntu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's answered in this Quora question.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.quora.com/Does-the-American-Constitution-allow-f…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt hinges on the fact that Electors in the Electoral College don't have to follow the popular vote.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m" the legislators can change the state law to require Electors to vote for the President regardless of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopular vote."⁣
  ⁣
     [1mperfect_kiss[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mpapers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2010183[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjedberg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI worry that the people in charge of fixing the systems are also the ones that benefit most from it being⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbroken. At least with the Chaos Monkey, no one is on the monkey's side.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpaganel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe postmortem of the last 4 years[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think the US will have the time for a "post-mortem", this is not a bug that just disappeared/was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msolved because Trump is no longer president. More people voted for him in 2020 than they did in 2016, the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mracist things that he has said and done have not come out of no-where, he had (and still has) a strong⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msupport behind him, and that support won't disappear over night.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mabc-xyz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe probably received a lot of votes from liberals like myself who see China as the greatest threat the world⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis facing today, and were thus forced to vote against our interests (since Biden has a history of being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpro-China and even said he would end Trump’s China tariffs during the campaign).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmatwood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe way to deal with China through legislation and working with our allies because it has to be a long term⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprocess. Tariffs and photo ops like FoxConn in WI did nothing hinder China.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnot2know[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI agree that China is a big threat, but trade wars is a bad way to address it. History has shown that the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUS pretty much always ends up losing in a trade war. Mind you, I don't know what the right solution is, but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI do know that trade war is not it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwhateveracct[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI mean Trump's China tariffs have been paid for by Americans. Because that's how tariffs work.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHave they deterred business with China in favor of moving that business back to America? Or have they just⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpassed the price along to the American consumer?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthe weak points in the infrastructure of our government[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're not wrong, but:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBut I go on this great republican principle, that the people will have virtue and intelligence to select[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmen of virtue and wisdom. Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtheoretical checks—no form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msecure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mvirtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men. So that we do[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mnot depend on their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* James Madison, 20 June 1788, Papers 11:163⁣
  ⁣
    [1mArnoVW[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOr as his contemporary French lawyer / philosopher Joseph de Maistre said: Toute nation a le gouvernement⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mqu'elle mérite (Every nation gets the government it deserves)⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mDemocracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* [34men.wikiquote.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken#Notes_on_Democra…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkqvamxurcagg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI would disagree on this point. I believe the constitution and judiciary have been very effective against⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's attempts to go around Congress. Lots of people are criticising the USA's political system but⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mremember it is the UNITED STATES. The federal system of government and the electoral college system are by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbuilt-in features. The senate system of 2 senators per state and the electoral college are fantastic features⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto provide additional stability across a vast and diverse geography.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkelnos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe senate system of 2 senators per state and the electoral college are fantastic features to provide[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3madditional stability across a vast and diverse geography.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's interesting that you see it that way. From my perspective, it's something that was originally designed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith fairly good intentions, that is now being abused by the minority to impose their will upon everyone.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLet's not forget that Democrats have won the popular vote in all but one presidential election this century.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd that the Senate's structure has allowed the party representing a minority of Americans to reshape the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfederal judiciary for years to come. (And unless a rabbit gets pulled out of a hat somewhere, they'll [3mstill[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave outsized control over judicial confirmations for at least the next 2 years.)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm all for preventing the tyranny of the majority, but these features of US government haven't resulted in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmoderation, they've resulted in tyranny of the minority.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mThrowawayR2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"I'm all for preventing the tyranny of the majority, but these features of US government haven't resulted[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3min moderation, they've resulted in tyranny of the minority."[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe alternative is effectively disenfranchising rural areas. Remember that whole "no taxation without⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrepresentation" thing a couple of centuries ago and how badly that turned out? Rural areas are where all⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe food, agricultural and mineral resources of the United States are produced, not to mention the source⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof the majority of its armed forces, so trying to disenfranchise them isn't going to end well.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd the minority isn't small either: the last time I checked, even in archetypically left-leaning⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCalifornia, about ⅓ of the vote went to Trump; for the other two west coast states, the tally was closer to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m40%.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe answer, of course, is to focus on uniting the nation, not division, even if it means not all the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchanges people want happen as quickly as they would prefer. "[3mPolitics is the art of the possible[0m" after⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mall.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt wasn't even that well-intentioned. It was a necessary concession to Southern slaveholders. It's always⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeen anti-majoritarian.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowawaysea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don’t think this is a tyrant of the minority but rather an appropriate averaging of influenced - it is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfederalism working healthily. Different places, with different people and cultures, need autonomy and self⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdetermination if they are willing to join a union of states. Otherwise why would they take part in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munion and give up their ways of life and laws and cultures? The mechanisms for making the union palatable⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto all are found in how we apportion senators and in the electoral college. I think this IS moderation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbawolff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a non american, the way people describe american judges by their partisan leanings seems really messsed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mup to me. I would describe that as not how a judicary should work.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makvadrako[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOnly the partisans describe judges likes that. Judges do have leanings, but it's mostly about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjurisprudence, like more originalism, or believing the interpretation should consider the intent of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegislator, or lean towards where society in general is leaning.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese are unavoidable aspects of being a supreme court judge, since you are also deciding what the law⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmeans and entails.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mNateEag[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople describe the judges that way, but in reality at least ones at the Supreme Court level tend to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mapolitical.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey may have very strong views on what framework a judge should use to interpret the law, but they usually⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill not push their own political agenda.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmarktangotango[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRead up on Italian courts and prosecutors for some perspective.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcushychicken[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mThe senate system of 2 senators per state and the electoral college are fantastic features to provide[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3madditional stability across a vast and diverse geography.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd yet, the United States does not preach this model when helping to propagate democracy abroad. Tellingly,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey don't include:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- first past the post elections,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- bicameral legislative branches, or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- electoral colleges.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe're operating on a model that our own State Department discourages other countries from adopting.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mklyrs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI do hope that the experience of this election will build bipartisan support to nationalize federal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melections. Personally, I'd love to see an end to the electoral college, but I can't see Republicans⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupporting that loss of leverage since their last two non-incumbent wins have lost the popular vote.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskissane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe're operating on a model that our own State Department discourages other countries from adopting.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you have a source for that?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEspecially the point about bicameralism? I think in a federal system, having something like the US or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAustralian Senate's is useful in it prevents the smaller states from being dominated by the bigger ones.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLeaving smaller states feeling politically powerless can encourage separatist/independence movements and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthreaten the long-term viability of the country.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjczhang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExcept he appointed a bunch of justices up and down the spectrum and will have influenced this for many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myears to come..⁣
  ⁣
     [1mskissane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think Trump's picks for justices are no different than what some generic Republican President would have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpicked. In choosing justices, he basically just followed the advice of the conservative legal establishment⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(Federalist Society, etc). His choices were judicial conservatives, but generic judicial conservatives not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrumpists.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mopinion-is-bad[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt was pretty shortsighted when Democrats removed the filibuster from judicial confirmations in 2014 to try⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand ram through judges in Obama’s final years.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmitchdoogle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't see how anyone can argue for the electoral college as a feature in our modern times. Our Senate and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe electoral college were designed in order to get support from colonies to form the new USA. It worked⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwell for that purpose.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe have entirely different goals now. We should be aiming for fair elections in which one person's vote is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mequal to any other's regardless of the state they reside. The electoral college is downright repulsive once⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou realize how unfairly it treats citizens in more populated states compared to those in less populated⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstates.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe electoral college now has the potential of pulling the union apart. If California and New York see a few⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore elections in which their citizens' votes are discounted, resulting in popular vote winners losing the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpresidency, then it would be logical for them to secede. They can take their massive economies and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccompanying tax dollars and leave this system behind, as it should've been a long time ago.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msaberdancer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mRemoving electoral college would remove all the interesting stuff about campaigning. Campaigns would focus⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon large urban areas and no one would set foot in sparsely populated areas.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI always feel that we are highly inclined to promote a voting system which would help the side we support.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowaway201103[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe constitution declares that the president is elected by the states, not by the people directly. The⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melectoral college serves to moderate the influence of dense population areas.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOn a straight popular vote basis, the large urban centers in a handful of states would select the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpresident. Their interests and motivations will necessarily be different from rural areas.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe electoral college gives populous states proportionally more influence, as they have more congressional⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrepresentatives and thus more electoral votes. But it serves to balance that against the interests of less⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpopulated states, which are also part of the country and should not be considered completely irrelevant in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe process.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mGunax[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhy stop at the electoral college then? The same logic can be applied to both houses.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHell it's the same way in parliamentary systems.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is a feature of any indirect vote.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowawaysea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe reality of the power balance the opposite of what you’re saying, in my opinion. Places like CA and NY⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave incredible influence and power even with the electoral college. The calls for one person’s vote being⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mequal to others nationally is just a virtuous rhetorical argument to justify a power grab that would take⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpower away from places which already have diminished influence.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe reality is that different locations have different ways of life and culture and politics, and therefore⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mself determination must be supported through some mechanisms (like the electoral college) for a federal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munion to make sense and for those peoples to feel represented. If we are undoing that we need to also give⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstates the option to secede and go their own way, since this union would simply mean the end of their way⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof life.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdehrmann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe senate system of 2 senators per state and the electoral college are fantastic features to provide[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3madditional stability across a vast and diverse geography.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat's interesting, and in defense of the electoral college, these three actually pick the winner in very⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifferent ways, making it harder for a single party to take control, and requiring some amount of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompromise. If we just used popular vote for choosing the president, they're more likely to be the same⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparty as the one controlling the House.⁣
  ⁣
     [1myongjik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOther countries handle it just fine with popular votes.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mE.g., South Korea has a presidential election every 5 years, congressional election every 4 years, and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgubernatorial(?) election every 4 years (staggered in the middle between congressional elections). In this⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mway, a government losing popular support quickly finds itself surrounded by elected officers from opposing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mparties.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mon_and_off[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI distinctly remember a tweet from 4 years ago, "this presidency will be a test of our institutions and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcounter powers".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWell, this did not go _well_.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI wish a lot of luck to the Biden administration, there is a lot to rebuild. I might disagree on tons of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolicy topics with him but at the very least I can completely agree that he lives up to what should be the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbare minimum for any president : respect the rule of law, be the president of all americans, not just the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mones who voted for you, etc⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowaway201103[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden says the right things, as experienced politicians do. Let's withold judgment until we see what he⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoes.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYour comments seem fine, but could you please stop creating accounts for every few comments you post? We⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mban accounts that do that. This is in the site guidelines: [34mnews.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou needn't use your real name, of course, but for HN to be a community, users need some identity for other⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0musers to relate to. Otherwise we may as well have no usernames and no community, and that would be a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdifferent kind of forum. [34mhn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mJohnBooty[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah. The laws of the land largely assume the president is fundamentally a good actor with the nation's best⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterests at heart, which I think was sometimes the case with Trump and sometimes not.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe should require a fuller disclosure of a candidate's finances before we allow them to serve. Trump may be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeeply in debt to foreign powers. He may not be. We do not know. [3mThat is a problem, and it should not be a[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mpartisan issue. It is mind-blowing that anybody is okay with not knowing[0m. Let's not let that happen again.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat should be the easiest law/amendment to pass, ever. (Of course it won't be)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe obviously have legal machinery in place to remove a president if the need arises, but it is necessarily⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mslow and ineffective.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHis term also (further) exposed big flaws in the way we put people on the Supreme Court. We should go back to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe old system of a ⅔ majority required. No more 50/50 simple majority, as the Democrats instituted a while⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mback. I find that a disaster.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe old ⅔ majority generally ensured that people who were competent centrists got onto the court. Both⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparties were equally happy with the candidates… or at least equally unhappy!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcsnover[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHis term also (further) exposed big flaws in the way we put people on the Supreme Court. We should go back[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mto the old system of a ⅔ majority required. No more 50/50 simple majority, as the Democrats instituted a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwhile back. I find that a disaster.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSenate Republicans were the ones who lowered the requirement for Supreme Court confirmations to a simple⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmajority, not the Democrats[[37m0[0m]. Senate Democrats had reduced the threshold for presidential appointments⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mexcluding[0m the Supreme Court as a result of chronic filibustering by the Republican congress during Obama’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mterm[[31m1[0m].⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree with you that something needs to be done about SCOTUS nominations. It’s clear to me that the stakes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare currently [3mway[0m too high. Turning the court into a political football has created an incredibly dangerous⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msituation that risks undermining its authority and the rule of law.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.nytimes.com/2017/04/06/us/politics/neil-gorsuch-…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/10/01/fac…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mclairity[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmake no mistake, trump did nothing intentionally for the nation's best interests, because he was unable to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msee beyond himself. he's the quintessential selfish actor, and that behavior has been repudiated by the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0melectorate at large.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDennisP[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's true. I've been kinda shocked to discover how much our system depends on entirely voluntary norms.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not nearly as resilient to determined attack as I'd always thought.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdehrmann[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt also exposed how we've kicked the can down the road with North Korea and China (having to work with local⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbusinesses, forced IP transfers, and IP theft). Not that his approaches to either were all that productive;⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith China in particular, a lot of traditional US allies have similar gripes, so it'd be easy to build a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcoalition, but not when you're also engaged in a trade war with them.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkrapp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mRegardless of your views of Trump's politics, his administration and method of leadership has exposed a lot[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mof flaws in how our government has been designed and engineered.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mChief among which was allowing the election of someone like Trump to begin with.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgarmaine[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe DNC is as much or more at fault here than anyone else.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkrapp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThey have some fault, yes, but not more fault than the Republicans for selecting him, or the American⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople, or the electoral college or first past the post voting. At the end of the day, all the DNC did was⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbet on the wrong horse.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSomeone like Trump shouldn't have been a viable option [3mregardless[0m of who the Democrats put up.⁣
  ⁣
   [1makudha[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIndeed.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe was completely incompetent in everything he tried to do. Imagine how bad it would be, if he was actually⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompetent. There is a good chance someone exactly like him can come along in the future, except more⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompetent - that is scary to think about⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtrustfundbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis x10000%. I've been telling my friends this for years that I'm angry at trump but I'm genuinely afraid⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor the next more refined iteration of him.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHopefully this four years will encourage us not to put our guards down again.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makudha[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWe can celebrate now, but we need to remember that almost 70 million people voted for him, [3mthis[0m time. After⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mseeing him on the job for nearly four years 😔⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is a lot of work left to do⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSomeoneFromCA[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt is very strange how he, a master manipulator, missed the obvious danger Covid could cause to his⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpresidency. I mean, really?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlordnacho[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBad poker players do this a lot. You bully and bully and bully, everyone folds, and your stack grows. You⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwin little pots because the opponents don't like the risk. You win bigger pots because they think they have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma chance, but you throw lots of chips in and act confident. Eventually some situation comes along where⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou've run up the pot, but there's no way people will fold.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCovid probably looked like just another thing to him in the early days.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmhh__[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAny illusion Trump was a master negotiator is blown away by listening to Bob Woodward's interviews. He⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0malmost incriminates himself, for free, over the phone apparently purely because he wants Woodward to write a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter book this time.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchillwaves[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDude's a carnival barker. He's great at working up the crowds, but that seems to be his only talent.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCombined with his obvious deficiencies in other aspects of leadership.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnemothekid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think he missed it. IIRC he was appropriately briefed early enough. I just think he vastly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderestimated how bad it would be, and once he realized he was wrong, he brand of machismo prevented him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrom actual showing a strong virus response.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEven during the peak, his team was still trying to play political games (by denying "blue states" federal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresources to show it was democratic mismanagement). I think, if he truly made a strong showing (or was at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleast consistent in his message) he would have blown out Biden.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mqwerty1234599[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump literally would've won had he had sent free red MAGA masks to every American in March/April.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt was the perfect missed opportunity⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlordnacho[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe thing is he could also have done a macho move by ordering a huge lockdown, have military on the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstreets, but control the message the way he normally does: claim he was in early, say the economy would⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhave been worse if he hadn't, blame China, point fingers at BLM for defying his orders, and so on.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat seems to fit just as well with his playbook, he just went for the wrong pill.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mzmmmmm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mGreat leaders often work entirely from hunches and gut feeling. I think his whole life he did that and so⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfar he got away with it. So along comes COVID and he simply went with his hunch even in the face of an⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0moverwhelming amount of contrary scientific and medical evidence.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrowbahr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's because he's not a master manipulator: he is aggressive and lucky.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis actions were aggressive: just not against covid. He sought to shift blame onto local governments and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclaim glory for himself.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is an example of what a "career politician" would've easily used to their advantage, and handled well.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlostlogin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is an example of what a "career politician" would've easily used to their advantage, and handled[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwell.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’m not so sure about that. There aren’t a hell of a lot of politicians who have handled it well in my⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mview. There are a few and they are lauded for their efforts, but it’s not common. Have you any examples?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGuB-42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe didn't miss Covid, he had a plan, but it wasn't the right plan. To be honest, no one could make plans,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0monly bets.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe wanted to use the pandemic as a way to boost nationalism. The evil virus from China vs America's freedom.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTurned out, China handled the situation pretty well and blaming them for everything turned out more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifficult than expected. And America didn't deliver, the drug industry couldn't find a treatment, and worse,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mone of the most effective mitigations, masks, rely on imports from China.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHad an American lab found an effective treatment, had a convincing argument been found against China, the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msituation would have been different for the elections. But how could one know? Trump just lost his bet.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwhatshisface[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA lot of people have this image of that there exists these perfect villainous masterminds who always know⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe truth and always say exactly what benefits them, but in the pragmatic universe of real people and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlimited intelligence, always knowing exactly what to say somehow comes at the expense of always knowing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat's actually happening.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe electoral danger wasn't COVID — sicknesses and pandemics haven't decided elections in the past, I doubt⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey do now — the #1 danger to any incumbent is economic depression: Carter, HW Bush.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think Trump was [3mvery[0m aware of that fact, whether or not he responded in the right way.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhobofan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou say that like the pandemic and the economic situation this year were entirely unconnected. If the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msituation would have been handled with more care in the beginning instead of downplaying it, it likely⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwouldn't have had the economic effect that it did.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mma2rten[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI actually think it could have been a great opportunity for him. Generally speaking most leader's approval⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgoes up when they handle a national crisis.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHe could have made a fortune on masks with his name and campaign slogans on them, too.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mInstead, 237k Americans died and 1,500+ die every from COVID, and many Americans are following his lead by⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot wearing masks.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpeteretep[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can’t bully a virus or subject it to social pressure⁣
  ⁣
     [1mafiori[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut you can use it to escalate executive powers beyond reasonable limits, like many governors did or like⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe previous two administrations did for the war on terror.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmikestew[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe claimed to be able to shoot someone on 5th Avenue and still get elected. OTOH, Covid [3mcould[0m have been his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m9-11 moment, with just a teensy bit of effort the resident of the Oval Office could come out a hero, just⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon’t screw it up.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOTOOH someone in that circle, who [3mdid[0m have a 9-11 moment and didn’t screw it up, waited until years later to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpiss away their credibility. So perhaps the president got some really bad advice.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mzoomablemind[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCOVID-19 presented a pat situation, so to speak, for Trump administration. No good moves whichever way to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgo. Imposing quarantine measures would be going against the very much support base, who not only oppose it,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthey subverted this into a principle point of distinction synonymous to freedom.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mApproving a more substantial aid to people and businesses would go along the lines of "entitlements".⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBoth of such choices would also align Trump's administration, and by extension the Republicans, with the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mopposition - something made unthinkable in the current climate.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf anything, COVID-19 underscored more the perhaps cliche saying that "Divided we fall". The strategies⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat play into devisiveness can only provide a situational advantage; for lasting changes there needs to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0munity.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's a herculean task to unite a nation in the current state of polarisation.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPerhaps people could stand back for a moment and ask themselves what or who is it there that makes people⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mso intolerably polarised; is there a vision that could move the nation forward, define challenges that call⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor such a united power to overcome them?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmarktangotango[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere was reporting recently were he followed Kushners plan to open the economy and lay the blame for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspreading covid at the feet of the state governors for poor implementation. That "blaming the governors"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpart never really happened that I saw.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mSomeoneFromCA[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat might be the case actually. I do not buy simplistic explanations about being a simpleton bully and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msuch.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcloudkj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m+1 my thoughts as well. He's been a stellar QA, stress testing various facets of government, politics, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmedia.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mclairity[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhat's more interesting in the discussion is how much attention trump is still getting, rather than the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwinner, biden. we're more relieved by trump leaving than biden entering. trump being such a poor leader still⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0movershadows how mediocre biden is.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit's still uncertain what biden will be doing, other than occupying the white house, of any substance for the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnext 4 years. he talks a lot about unity, but isn't reputed to be a unifying force, so that seems an unlikely⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpillar of his presidency. he recites a litany of standard democratic policy positions, but without any real⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconviction (even "bidencare" is clichéd already).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdoes he do anything to moderate political and economic consolidations that have been so detrimental to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprosperity and unity over (at least) the last 40 years? doubtful, unfortunately.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mRegardless of your views of Trump's politics, his administration and method of leadership has exposed a lot[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mof flaws in how our government has been designed and engineered.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe postmortem of the last 4 years should be analyzed deeply in order to identify the weak points in the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3minfrastructure of our government in order to make improvements.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn many cases a thoughtful analysis will reveal that the "flaw" that was exposed was that a particular⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfunction of government required good people being elected and good people being appointed. In those cases it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmight be a mistake to attempt to update the design or structure of government, when the solution is a lot⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msimpler.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mYgg2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mChaos Engineering only works if the next administration is willing to work on the underlying problems, rather⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthan just preventing next Chaos Monkey event.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mE.g. imagine after using Chaos Monkey to demonstrate the flaws in structure, instead you just fire the people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat made it in the first place.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not holding my breath for that one. Lot of Dems campaign sponsors don't want to fix those issues.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mska[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think see what you are saying, but your framing to me supports a dangerously wrong idea that seems to have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma lot of currency . Trump is not some sort of wild outside anomaly, his gaining power is more of an emergent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproperty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mChaos monkey is intentionally outside the system, poking at it. Trump isn't this.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mweaksauce[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munfortunately unless we fix the ills that he exposed those that want to exploit it will be far more competent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mat enabling fascism.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mJulianMorrison[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOkay, but… next time, please do not give Chaos Monkey the nuclear launch codes?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI believe it genuinely was touch and go a few times there.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mseppin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mExcept for the things he broke that cannot be repaired. The people dead from COVID. The children separated⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfrom their parents.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat a cold and callus interpretation of a man that did real damage to thousands of people.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgabrielrdz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is a great analogy. I hope lawmakers patch all those holes, because you are right.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmoonbug[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPeak Orange Hell Site, my dude.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlap43[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt seems you're the actual monkey.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mone2know[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's just your viewpoint. Many on the right saw the Obama years as chaotic and flawed, acquiescing to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mforeign powers, allowing immigration that lead to terror attacks, etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne thing we can "post mortem" about this election is that people on the left such as yourself are not able⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto conceptualize other viewpoints. Other political viewpoints you describe as chaos and flawed and you want⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto "engineer" the goverment to prevent other viewpoints, and thus other political parties.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnother thing on the left is that censorship has been fully embraced by the left in a dishonest way. While⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mits true people are banned for violating communtiy guidelines, there is also weasel censorship such as hiding⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcomments under the guise they might offend so that if users want to see alternative viewpoints they have to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mclick 'show more comments'. Deplatforming and shadow banning non-leftist ideas has also taken root.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBoth of these things eagerly adopted and used in this campaign cycle are Unamerican and dangerous. Your road⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto good intentions clearly leads to hell, and you are unable to recognize it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mHnrobert42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSticking to just the topic of chaos, let’s attempt to quantify it. At 91%, the turnover in his “A” team is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe highest among the last 7 president. At 100%, the turnover of cabinet posts is 20% higher than the next⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhighest, HW Bush’s, which itself 20% higher than Reagan’s which is itself 20% higher than Clinton’s. Bush⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhad the lowest at 20%. [[37m0[0m]⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI curious about other documented quantitative measurements of presidential entropy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a side note: I disagree with most of what you wrote, but I respect the thought you put into it and your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meffort and remaining civil.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m0 - [34mwww.brookings.edu/research/tracking-turnover-in-the-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mone2know[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo since google employees have an median tenure of 1.1 year then that means google is even more chaotic⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0morganization than the US government. Should laws be "engineered" to prevent organizations like google⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbecause there is some sort of ephemeral "chaos" problem with it? Or is it that you are politically⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpredisposed to wanting and needing a strong, lets call it, central committee, to centrally plan things and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworker turnover doesn't count towards "chaos"⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnot2know[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost would argue that what the right saw as flawed was not based in reality. For example, most terror⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mattacks in the US are conducted by white supremacists[[31m1[0m].⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe point is not about trying to prevent other viewpoints, which is obviously bad, but to preserve the rule⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof law and patch holes in the laws and other customs where they exist. Trump showed where the holes are. I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon't think you would be happy if Biden and Democrats started using the same loopholes that Trump and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRepublicans have been using. By the way, research has shown that conservatives are less likely to be able⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0memphatize with other viewpoints compared to liberals[[31m1[0m].⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI want to point out that Trump and the Republican party has taken dishonesty to completely new level in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmerica. The party even came up with a new term to call lies: "alternative fact". Trump has lied more than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m20,000 times since taking office.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe issue with the modern Republican party is that they are not going to compromise on anything. It is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meither their way, or no way. That is not the right way to govern a country. Well, I guess that is the way it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis in dictatorships, but I would like to think that most Americans do not want to live in a dictatorship.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.nytimes.com/2020/10/24/us/domestic-terrorist-gro…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34mwww.researchgate.net/publication/339568853_Empathy_a…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's not the left that is doing the censoring, it is companies, and they're doing it to both left and right⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwing ideas.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor engineering the government to prevent other view points, that's the whole point of the constitution.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCertain view points are disallowed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat was the chaos in the Obama administration? Those seemed like pretty boring years. By contrast, the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrump adminstration had the constant leaks, tell all books, and high profile firings/resignations.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat terror attacks happened in the US due to immigration during the Obama years? Acquiescing to foreign⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpowers yeah, Obama should have gone to war with Russia over Crimea, but the trump years are no better. He's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpushed Iranians that want peace out of power, given legitimacy to Russia's conquests, and both legitimacy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand nuclear weapons to North Korea, while strengthening China's ties to other countries (eg. Brazil is now⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mChina's friend due to soy trade)⁣
  ⁣
     [1meunos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mObama should have gone to war with Russia over Crimea[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSay goodbye to Indo-Pacific then, land war with Russia (a nuclear major power mind you) will be multiple⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtimes more difficult than Iraq and people say that America focus with Iraq allows China ascendency.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m10 years after U.S-Russian war, you might face China with probably 50% bigger GDP than America, while⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerica national debt might approach 200% GDP and ultra disillusioned Americans years for isolationism. The⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mentire Indo-Pacific then might be finlandized by China.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2macquiescing to foreign powers, allowing immigration that lead to terror attacks[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThings not based in reality. And there in lies the difference.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnother thing on the left is that censorship has been fully embraced by the left[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf the government isn't doing it, it isn't censorship⁣
  ⁣
     [1mone2know[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYour reality. How many have been beheaded in France in recent weeks by immigrants? Do you even read about⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthose kinds of things or stay in your bubble.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowawaysea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCensorship is not defined as something just a government does. And free speech is more fundamental than the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mUS’s first amendment. Censorship is still censorship when big tech does it and the left’s embrace of it is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mscary and despicable.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m7952[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe instead of "failing to conceptualise" they just have a different viewpoint. Why overcomplicate things?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd the same is true of the whole censorship issue. People on the left just have different values and that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis reflected in policy. That doesn't equate to a conspiracy to destroy freedom of speech.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamaccuish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's just your viewpoint⁣
  ⁣
   [1mvagrantJin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGood man must stress test the system. Thats goodwill.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtshaddox[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat flaws did the Trump administration demonstrate that weren’t already obviously flaws? Did we actually get⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnew information about previously hidden flaws?⁣
  ⁣
    [1macdha[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's like saying that a machine gun wasn't more deadly because we already had rifles. Trump made a number⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof major expansions in claims of executive power: spending money which Congress had allocated for different⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpurposes, claiming immunity to legal investigation, using the DOJ to defend him against civil suits⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpredating his run for office, simply putting people in positions which require Congressional approval,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclaiming that he could override state health authority decisions related to the pandemic, trying to zero out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtaxes which he doesn't agree with, etc. He didn't get away with all of it but that Unitary Executive theory⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis a really big shift away from the American system of government and it happened by fiat rather than some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mkind of reasoned legislative process.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPut more simply, Trump managed to find a position strong enough that he lost the support of even John Yoo,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwho felt that the President had authority to order torture.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.npr.org/2017/02/08/514049685/former-defender-of-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mapi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI thought the same thing. Expose our system to an inept wannabe despot. Hopefully the system is antifragile⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand this will make it much harder for a more serious and competent future one.⁣
  ⁣
   [1madrianmonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor example, in impeachment trials, you might expect partisanship to affect the final vote but for the trial⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mitself to still be thorough, complete, etc. In practice, apparently this doesn't happen if the party is still⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbasically loyal to the president.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI guess it's not surprising. If they already know how they're going to vote, it can only damage the president⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand the senators to expose any facts that go against that.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMaybe in a case where the president did something even more extreme, it wouldn't work this way. But the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msequence appears to be that the president's party would first decide they want him out, then do the trial to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmake it happen, not the other way around.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnostromo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAll historic impeachment votes were (edit: almost entirely) along partisan lines: Clinton, Trump, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJohnson.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNixon was potentially going to be bipartisan, which is why he resigned first — so we’ll never know for sure.⁣
  ⁣
     [1madrianmonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mvotes were (edit: almost entirely) along partisan lines[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAs I said (I thought clearly), I'm not talking about the final vote. I'm talking about the trial stuff that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhappens before it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFor example, whether any witnesses are called. In Trump's impeachment trial they decided witnesses weren't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnecessary ([34mwww.npr.org/2020/01/31/801589634/sen-alexander-expla…[0m).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAlso, when Clinton was impeached, it was a Republican-majority Senate impeaching a Democratic president. So⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot really comparable to when it's the same party for both as with Trump. Of course they went through all⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe steps in the trial for Clinton because that Senate wanted to impeach (and probably wanted as much⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdamaging evidence to come to light as possible).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mblululu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNot exactly true. In every trial in the senate, the guilty votes come exclusively from one side, but the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot guilty votes are historically slightly more bipartisan. For both Clinton and Johnson, all the guilty⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvotes came from republicans, while all senate democrats and a handful of republicans voted not guilty.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump's impeachment trial was unique in that it was a straight party line vote. Nixon almost certainly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould have been impeached (the Democrats had a large majority in the house), and a large number of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrepublican senators were expected to vote guilty (which would have been unique). He may have been able to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mescape a conviction in the senate, but the evidence was pretty damning and the American public would have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeen furious. In some sense his resignation was the only way to salvage the Republican Party.⁣
  ⁣
     [1makhilcacharya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump's wasn't by partisan lines, Romney voted for it.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdrocer88[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mShouldn't we wait for the states to go through , in some cases, mandatory recounts and certification of the
  [0mresults and then the actual electoral college vote after any legal appeals?

                                                   [1m▶ 11 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 11 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlwansbrough[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo, that’s never been a requirement for news media. California was called within 10 minutes of polls closing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause it was expected to be a mathematical improbability of a Republican win in that state. Whenever a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstate gets called (and inevitably therefore the presidency), it is done because the math nerds at the media⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0morganizations put the odds of the other party winning outside the realm of what can realistically be achieved⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min the opinion of the analysts. There is no legal requirement to be eventually correct in your calls.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhartator[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhy Alaska wasn’t called as fast then?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhoten[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMany remote communities, where votes must be delivered by plane or sled. Alaska is absolutely huge.⁣
  ⁣
   [1motterley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHistory has shown that recounts rarely change anything beyond a few hundredths of a percent, if that (see:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFlorida 2000). The margins are wide enough, and there are enough states that tipped blue, that it is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextremely unlikely as a matter of pure mathematics that there would be any change in outcome — even if⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's fans were granted every legal challenge on their wishlist.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCourts are generally loath to grant relief when the outcome wouldn't change. ("Void as moot.")⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdawnerd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey would have to get thousands of votes tossed out which no judge is going to do. That would really leave⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma bad stain on the election that both parties rely on.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdavid927[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m100% but the media is free to project a winner at any time.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI didn’t vote (both candidates were too conservative for me) but I’m deeply suspicious of the results and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould like as much verification as possible.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs this your first election? This has never been the case before (even in 2000 when the media got it wrong⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdue to Florida). Why would or should it be the case now?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msomjeed[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAre we just going to pretend like this election was not different from every other election? Something very⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munique occurred in this election and I don't appreciate the media and leaders declaring a winner when the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mother candidate is still contesting it. Why shouldn't we wait to be certain?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLeaders across the world are congratulating Biden and accepting the results. All of the US media is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maccepting the results. Even Fox News accepted the results. Most of the GOP is accepting the results.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne man-child's tantrum does not a country make. The few in power that are sticking with Trump right now⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare absolutely deluded. His voters are simply misinformed, but will accept the truth soon enough.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe results of the election are already certain. They've been certain for [3mdays[0m, DDHQ (non-partisan) called⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthem a long time ago and they were slow to do so. It is through an abundance of caution that news outlets⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwaited to get past .5% margin in PA to call the results.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt doesn't matter that Trump is contesting the results. He has lost all semblance of support (a miracle he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhad any in the first place). He was golfing when the results were being announced, I don't think even he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcares that much; he's just scared and trying to cling to power.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo no, we should not treat Trump differently: We should treat him as we would anyone throwing a tantrum⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlike he does: Dismiss it and ignore it. The courts are dismissing it (8 cases lost/dismissed out of 8⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfiled), and the media is ignoring it. As long as the election is fair (which it was), and the results are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcorrect (which they are), Biden is President. Let it be.⁣
  ⁣
   [1motabdeveloper4[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo, Orange Man Bad. This is different, you should know.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mFandangoRanger[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo no that’s why you got downvoted. The media decides the election, not the Electoral College.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjseliger[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mA big problem that divides us is property renters versus owners: owners have spent the last several decades
  [0mrestricting access to property, and that's now raised the cost of the most productive metro areas to
  [0munacceptable levels: [34mwww.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/the-ren…[0m Many millions of people, especially
  [0mbut not exclusively the young, have in effect been gated out of prosperity.
  [0m
  [0mMatt Yglesias's new book [3mOne Billion Americans[0m has a good discussion of the issue:
  [0m[34mnymag.com/intelligencer/2020/08/one-billion-american…[0m, even if you don't buy his population-based premise.
  [0m
  [0mUntil we can free our land markets, we're going to have a lot of political problems caused by people who
  [0m(correctly) feel they can't afford to live.

                                                   [1m▶ 16 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 16 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmshumi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs it fair if people can be restricted from competing in the property markets by people who faced no such⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrestrictions themselves when acquiring that land capital. Zoning licensing, etc.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe elephant in the room is that for most people the majority of their net worth is tied up in housing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(property) and as interest rates drop the nominal value of this property increases way faster than the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnominal wages of labor. This property can then be used to create information insensitive debt that ignores⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0many notion of liquidity at an artificially higher nominal value. This debt is then used to pay wage-labor who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mincreasingly cannot acquire property themselves. At the end of the day, only real property is wealth (land,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mip rights, equity, collectibles, and machinery) and labor is denied the opportunity to earn a larger share of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproperty themselves. Any solution is politically difficult.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtachyonbeam[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree that there is an issue with housing being so inaccessible to labor. In my city, even with a six⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfigure salary, it's hard to buy something alone. You increasingly need two six figure plus salaries to make⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit work. IMO, part of the problem is that everyone views housing as an investment. People trade real estate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlike trading cards. We forget that homes have a more fundamental purpose (to house people).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you can't afford a home, as a way to get your foot in the door, you can buy ETFs on the stock market. You⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan also buy REITs as a way to invest in real estate. There are even diversified REIT ETFs. It's like being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma landlord, you get paid dividends, but you don't have to lift a finger. If someone has some money on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mside but can't yet afford property, this is a relatively safe way to get into investing and the real estate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmarket IMO.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe unfortunate difference though is that mortgage rates are subsidized by the government, interest rates⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare kept artificially low. If you get a mortgage to buy a property, it's effectively leveraged investing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou pay a small downpayment (as low as 10% nowadays) and you're basically investing with someone else's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmoney. You can't do that with REITs. Nobody will lend you 10X your downpayment at 2% interest to buy ETFs.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you can't afford to own property, you are denied this leveraged investing opportunity.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPersonally, as a condo owner, I would be OK with condo prices not going up. As prices increases, so do my⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtaxes. I can just invest in the stock market. I don't need my home to be an investment, I just need it to be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma comfortable place to live.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDenisM[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWeird, right?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou would think this would be front and center in any election, next to the destruction of quality jobs that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprevented the same young people from getting on a good career path. And yet, the two gigantic elephants⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mremain entirely unobserved.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI am seriously perplexed.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheartbeats[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYoung people don't make up that large a portion of the voter base in swing states.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's been bizarre to watch this develop, and yet somehow urbanization accelerates anyway.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe more technology and communication humanity develops, the more it clusters into small pieces of land with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexorbitant rents.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSomething just seems off.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbbreier[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis same problem does not exist in many places where urbanization is much further along than it is here,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhich would lead me to question whether it was the primary factor at work.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpaulddraper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMind sharing an example?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat place has large cities lacking residents with low standards of living?⁣
  ⁣
    [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think the inefficiency is distance?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf I want a fancy beer from Holy Mountain, I need to live close to it, or make big travel plans to get⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere. The same applies for each thing I might want to do. Living nearby lots of other people minimizes my⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdistance to each of those things, so I avoid wasting money and time on travel.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mopportune[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would be cool if Georgism or at least Land Value taxes made a bigger come back. My hopes are low after⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mseeing Prop 15 fail in California though. I think we're sadly not even close to the breaking point. It will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprobably require the proportion of renters:owners to increase among older people.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjelliclesfarm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit is free market at work. private property rights is the cornerstone of capitalism and free market. if you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwant land for all, then its no longer capitalism.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mland/property ownership is not a right. access to housing for those who cant afford it should be provided by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe govt. many countries do this. at least in california, high property values is favoured by the govt⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause it is a sure source of property taxes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma lot of issues can be sorted if high rise affordable housing can be built outside expensive zipcodes and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcreate a good public transport network.* instead, (here in ca), they are building 'affordable housing' inside⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe most expensive zipcodes and increasing toll roads and hiking tolls…and not improving public transport⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystems. looks like this is what the govt wants.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m*we just wasted money on it.. with no regards for the millions and millions raised in bonds by voters who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtrusted those whom they elected: [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_High-Speed_Rail[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mm0llusk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is an incorrect framing of the problem. People do not want land, they want residential units. Strong⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdemand can be handled by building up. Making it possible to build up where land values are high would solve⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma lot of problems.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCalifornia high speed rail is a different, specific, and complex system to evaluate. Just to throw out one⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmajor issue there is increasing demand for travel between LA and SF but capacity of existing roads, air⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcorridors, railways, and ferries is already approaching fundamental limits. Space for roads is limited so⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe only other real option is more airports everywhere which might end up being necessary either way.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjelliclesfarm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople want to own residential units. Ownership is and should be more expensive than occupancy.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA residential unit also needs power, sewer, water, schools, fire dept, police dept, parks and recreation,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msanitation and other services, transportation, commerce, infrastructure and roads. And staff to run all⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis. Building up vertically on a x30 multiplier doesn’t mean that city can provide all the services and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maccess resources to service the multiplier effect of said parcel of land. This is why high density cities⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mend up being unaffordable.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf high density cities are built up to accommodate more affordable homes and below market value homes, the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresidents effectively pay negative taxes by benefitting more from the city than they pay in as taxes. The⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmath doesn’t work out. If it did, we would have more townships with high density as well as⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maffordability..and cost of living going down. But in my observation,such things never happen. At least from⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe data I had collated from Bay Area cities. I would love to be proved wrong.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe only way..as I see it..high density home ownership can be feasible is if we have clustered communities⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbetween 150-300 households and each of the homes comes with assured employment. It’s closer to ‘company⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtowns’ or military townships.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m8note[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUS capitalism is based on the government taking land away from people that aren't developing, and giving it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto new owners though.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's the argument people give for why it's ok for the US to have taken land from the indigenous peoples at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleast. I think it's reasonable for the government to seize any property that has only been used for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcollecting rents within some timespan, and reallocate it to somebody who wants to make actual use of the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mland⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjelliclesfarm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAn elected government seizing private property is not democratic in any way, sense or form, IMO.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtbirdny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes. Hence the popularity of #vanlife and #tinyhouse.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbosswipe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIf Republicans keep the Senate Biden won't accomplish much of his agenda. Especially with Mitch Mcconnell's
  [0muncompromising approach expect gridlock, government shutdowns, probably a constitutional crisis or two, and a
  [0mcomplete inability to respond to any further crises.

                                                   [1m▶ 15 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 15 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mMilnerRoute[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn 2001 a Republican Senator flipped to become a Democrat and give them the majority.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not ruling out that possibility now. Especially when the stakes are even higher.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjimbob45[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd in 2010, Joe Lieberman (D) blocked Obamacare from getting a public option.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s not that a party has a 51-man majority, although that helps for simple legislation. It’s that a party⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas a majority that can withstand defectors. And one further, defectors aren’t always defecting out of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmalice. Susan Collins (R) resides in a remarkably purple region such that she needed to oppose Trump on some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof his policies to ensure she could get re-elected this year (and she did).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mMilnerRoute[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOn the other hand, Obamacare passed.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don't think we can say in advance what will and won't be blocked. But on the news today they pointed out⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat Biden has literally spent decades working in the Senate. So if anyone has across-the-aisle⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrelationships, it would be him.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnyways, again: we cannot say in advance what's going to happen next.⁣
  ⁣
    [1md0100[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is legal? Wow, very sleazy. In Brazil you lose your office if you switch after elected. You can still⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgo against your party when voting, but changing parties after election has got to burn you forever…⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdetaro[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's legal in many places where you explicitly vote for individual candidates, not parties (and even in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msome where party lists are voted)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpbuzbee[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is a major problem the US is going to have to figure out. How do you get anything done in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlegislature when one party has the incentive and ability to stop everything?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mochoseis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNah, he and Harris are senate insiders who will work relationships across the aisle and get things done.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mIzkata[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNah, Biden said it himself in the last presidential debate:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m[1:1:08] Trump: I just ask-- I just ask one question: why didn't you do it in the eight years, a short[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtime ago? Why didn't you do it? You just said, ‘I'm going to do that. I'm going to do this.’ You put tens[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mof thousands of mostly Black young men in prison. Now you're saying you're going to get-- you're going to[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mundo that. Why didn't you get it done? You had eight years with Obama? You know why, Joe, because you're[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mall talk and no action.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m[1:17:29] Welker: All right, Vice President Biden and then we're gonna move on to the next section.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m[1:17:34] Biden: We had a Republican Congress. That’s the answer.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2020/…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMitch McConnell said that his goal was to make sure that Obama is a one-time President. When you come in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith an attitude like that, it's difficult to get anything done. If your peer at work came in and said, my⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgoal is to make sure you don't last more than 3 months here, do you think you can be successful?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mochoseis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd in 2020 we currently have a Democratic-controlled house, and a narrowly Republican-controlled Senate.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf either party knows what's good for them, they'll work together.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFinally, Biden was not president from 2008-2016. A much less experienced insider was (as great and popular⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mas Obama was).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mEricson2314[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- Why would Mitch let them do anything? It worked to hobble Obama. If the axe a fair and powerful stimulus⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpost-pandemic couldn't they pull off another mid-term comeback better?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- Biden has little agenda, which make make comprimise appear easier, but one must not forget the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpre-compromise that happened before negotiating began.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe're in for at least 2 years of no meaningful policy, people.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBiden has little agenda? Trump had none. He could not articulate a single policy that he'd pursue in his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m2nd term.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhumanlion87[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI highly doubt they can outmaneuver Mitch. Especially in this current environment where the two parties are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munwilling to work together and have a divisive relationship. Things might have been better a couple of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecades ago where working across the aisle was more common I think.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbavell[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe fact they are insiders assures me nothing will get done while fingers are pointed every which way.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTedShiller[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot really⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1monecommentman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThanks for the valiant attempts to keep this discussion from devolving into a full-fledged dumpster fire.
  [0m
  [0m1. The US, by the most generally accepted definition, has had continuous governance as a democracy since 1788.
  [0mJust one more election, and not the most contentious or momentous by a long shot.
  [0m
  [0m2. Current reported spread in votes between D and R are pretty slim, 75.0M v. 70.7M Wikipedia 11PM EST 11/7.
  [0m
  [0m3. Whatever your partisan opinion, at least 70M American adults, 48.5% of those voting, disagree with you and
  [0mthink you’re an idiot. Try not to confirm the fact with your comments.
  [0m
  [0m4. Challenging the validity of the voting process is a time-honored tradition during tight races. Stop
  [0msounding like newbies. This is the only time that the validity of the electoral process gets enough visibility
  [0mto figure out if anything’s broke. Seriously broke? See 1.
  [0m
  [0m5. A paper trail is a beautiful thing.
  [0m
  [0m6. And what a wonderfully fertile field these comments are for use as examples of propaganda, inflammatory
  [0mrhetoric and logical fallacies. Wish I was teaching a course right about now. Timely for the application of
  [0mmanure on fields too…
  [0m
  [0m7. It would be nice if the mods kept the discussion away from an r/politics-ization of HN. The sides are
  [0mpretty obvious and enforcing an arbitrary quota of half blue hurrah/half red hurrah would lead to a better
  [0mflow and balance. Heavy-handed, but appropriate in these few cases IMHO.
  [0m
  [0mThe brilliant, stupid, wise, foolish, angry, mellow, old, young, rich, poor, naive, cynical, kind, nasty,
  [0msophisticated, brutish American people have spoken. Whether you agree with the results or not, it’s a
  [0mbeautiful thing.

                                                   [1m▶ 10 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 10 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1myaacov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is a really good post for the most part, but I strongly disagree with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2menforcing an arbitrary quota of half blue hurrah/half red hurrah would lead to a better flow and balance[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis forum isn’t meant to represent the American electorate. We’re a global community of hackers with unique⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterests and values, and there’s no reason why we should be forced to reflect a divided America if we⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mourselves are not nearly as divided.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRebelgecko[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree. While I haven't read through all of this discussion so perhaps I'm missing the dumpster fire, I've⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfound that HN in general is much more accepting of contrary opinions than anywhere else I hang out online.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(as long as they're presented respectfully and any controversial claims are argued coherently, especially⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith data)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdannyw[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolitical viewpoints are a point of marginalisation, and if we believe in creating inclusive communities,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe same should apply to politics. We elevate the viewpoints of minorities in tech, and I would love to see⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mus not draw the line at politics.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhatever your partisan opinion, at least 70M American adults, 48.5% of those voting, disagree with you and[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthink you’re an idiot.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is a site for hackers - people with a special affinity for technology, science, building things, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msolving problems.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOpenly supporting a president who gleefully ignores the advice of scientists and bans immigrants from Muslim⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountries is inherently harmful to the work of hackers not to mention life on this planet.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo pretend both sides have equal merit just because large numbers of people exist on each is dishonest.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mHelloworldboy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mActing like the conclusions of the scientific community should act as the end-all-be-all of policymaking is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwholly irresponsible. Just because you, and most of us on this website are capable of working remotely to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfeed ourselves during this pandemic does not mean that most of the population is. It’s easy for you to spout⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m“trust science” when “trusting science” doesn’t lead to any detriment in your life, like the permanent⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclosing of your small business or the loss of your income.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel HN has a decent balance of world events and tech. This is one of those occasions where I do want to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mengage in a conversation and hear the diversity of opinions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSure, obvious flame wars ought to be banned, but I’ve learned a ton about the strategy of different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidates and how it panned out. Various hypothesis on why things went a certain way and the permutations of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhat-if scenarios.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs you say, it’s a beautiful thing.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgisely[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1. Does continuous governance include a civil war? This wasn’t the most contentious election seeing as a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprevious one of ours did in fact lead to civil war, but it wasn’t “just one more election.” I reckon this⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melection brought us closer to civil war than any since Lincoln. And whereas the trouble of Lincoln’s time was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnecessary for the moral growth of our nation, Trump has provoked our current discord merely to aid his⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdictatorial intents. The democracy was nearly lost. It may still be. But at least now we have a chance. If⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat’s not momentous I don’t know what is.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlumpenprole[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2menforcing an arbitrary quota of half blue hurrah/half red hurrah would lead to a better flow and balance[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVery fine people on both sides.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbenignslime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myeah, that was a tell⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat last sentence sealed it, the exceptionalism reeks⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mchmod600[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mA voting system needs to be accurate but it also needs to inspire confidence. I think the U.S. failed on the
  [0mlatter point. Let me be clear that I don't think this affected the [3moutcome[0m, only the [3mconfidence in the[0m
  [0m[3moutcome[0m.
  [0m
  [0mMail-in voting has existed for a long time, but it is being done at a larger scale and in new ways and new
  [0mplaces. It was a mistake to do it during such a contentious election. Covid is not a good enough reason: it's
  [0measy enough to drop the ballot in a county box so the secretary of state has a chain of custody for all valid
  [0mballots. I would actually prefer voter ID as well as people standing there to do a brief check. In addition to
  [0mpreventing fraud, it also helps remind voters if they forgot to sign or something.
  [0m
  [0mAlso, I think it needs to be said that a lot of people hate Trump. Hate can cause people to do things that
  [0mthey would never imagine doing otherwise, like election fraud. It doesn't need to be a conspiracy… just a lot
  [0mof individuals doing small stuff (post office employees throwing away likely Trump ballots, etc.).
  [0m
  [0mAnd it doesn't help that the map looked quite red on the day of the election, and that the poll numbers were
  [0mWAY off, and that the media was rooting for Biden. It all just erodes confidence.

                                                   [1m▶ 14 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 14 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmadeofpalk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwould actually prefer voter ID as well as people standing there to do a brief check. In addition to[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpreventing fraud, it also helps remind voters if they forgot to sign or something.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI’m just unsure why you would want to make it harder for people to vote.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI’m honestly uninformed on this, apart from being from Australia which has compulsory voting without voter ID⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand there’s no issues, but have there actually be scenarios where there’s been fraud instances where showing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mID would have resolved things? Has voter ID shown to help more people vote around the world?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mchmod600[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't see ID as a major barrier to voting, but it adds confidence to the system.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI received two ballots, one for me and one for some previous tenant. I marked the other one "return to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msender" and put it in the mailbox. But someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe that would be caught by some other mechanism? Maybe people just don't do that? But it still adds⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconfidence and I don't really see a downside.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe it doesn't need to be a super secure ID, but [3msomething[0m would be reassuring.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBut someone else could have pretty easily just voted twice.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNo they could not have. Every vote is checked off against the voter registration rolls. The Board of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mElections knows when you have voted. You should volunteer for your local board of elections next election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe it will give you more confidence in the system.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo vote get excess votes, you have to first commit voter registration fraud or vote for people you know⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwill not vote. And you have to do it in large enough numbers to make a difference. And you have to assume⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0monly one party engages in fraud. Also, it’s a felony to commit voter fraud.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mVoter ID is an attempt to fix a problem that doesn’t exist in the real world. Meanwhile, it suppresses⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvotes.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere’s a large amount of “cure” work that’s occurring right now by both parties throughout the country⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbecause of votes that weren’t counted due to all sorts of innocuous mistakes people make. It’s thousands of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mballots in some places. Meanwhile fraud? There’s no there there.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy brother helped to cure ballots in Florida because people forgot a signature. Someone has to go to their⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhouse and get them to sign an affidavit that they voted.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere’s cure efforts in NC for provisional ballots for things like the DMV failing to forward a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregistration to the Board of Elections. Or someone who voted in the wrong precinct by accident.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese are all valid votes that won’t be counted due to a mistake by the voter unless someone contacts them⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand helps them to provide the documentation necessary to the BOE to validate their vote.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mStop spouting nonsense about fraud and volunteer for your local election board or your party.⁣
  ⁣
     [1marrrg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf people do that on a large enough scale there will be collisions (i.e. the previous tenant will want to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvote themselves, leading to this scheme unraveling real quick and no easy way for you to hide this fraud⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msince you are living at one of the previous addresses of that last tenant.)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis cannot influence elections meaningfully and it is nonsensical to state that.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmadeofpalk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAdding any barrier is bad enough.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt needs to be [3measier[0m to vote, not harder.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkylestlb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave any links to real evidence of widespread fraud that would affect the outcome?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mchmod600[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI specifically said I don't think any of this affected the outcome, but it's also about the confidence. I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mknow many people who do belive there was some manipulation here, and I don't think it's necessary. Not just⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump-die-hards, but people who just think it looks suspicious. We could have done more to avoid those⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuspicions.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheartbeats[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI have many links to evidence that there are real people out there who are convinced that there was election⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfraud. Whether there actually was any is immaterial; the mere appearance of fraud is bad enough.⁣
  ⁣
     [1marrrg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople are convinced because Trump tries to convince them using lies and deception.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDo you really think the right solution as a reward for those lies is to make it harder to vote?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkylestlb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcool, where are the links? if you want to go on about appearance of wrongdoing, there's been plenty of that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe last 4 years. in fact, the president was impeached for it⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrjkennedy98[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey said the same thing about NSA surveillance before Snowden⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwebkike[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd then Snowden provided evidence. What are you getting at here?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI would actually prefer voter ID[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnsubstantiated fear mongering erodes confidence.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe opposite side of this coin is voter suppression. A vote suppressed is exactly as bad as a fraudulent⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvote. But, I think I'm in the minority on the voter ID opinion, and I want people to be confident in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocracy, so I hope we can come to a compromise.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make issuance⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting options.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mp.s. [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voting_rights_in_the_United_St…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voter_impersonation_(United_St…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSuppression has and continues to be an actual problem. Even in just this election:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.cbsnews.com/news/florida-felon-voting-rights-pay…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLate edit: Downvotes. Hysterical. Wonder if it’s the vote suppression advocates or the folks who disagree⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith voter ID. No fans of compromise?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mciarannolan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've always wanted strong voter verification/ID but also massive voter turnout efforts. I haven't found many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople with a similar take.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI'll vote for voter ID if you vote for expanding access to voting. Make election day a holiday. Make[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3missuance of voter IDs automatic. Switch to no-excuse absentee ballots everywhere. Expand early voting[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3moptions.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI support all of this. And let's also make sure people who are voting are eligible to do so.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mcharliemil4[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWe should trust but verify the results. The basis of facts should be settled in the following:
  [0m
  [0m1. Select all ballots that were sent to the same address - or sent to the same Post Office (grouping all PO
  [0mBoxes by post office).
  [0m^ Here you are trying to see if there is systemic voting behaviors out of the ordinary — i.e. did 10+ ballots
  [0mgo to one address.
  [0m
  [0m2. Select all ballots that were sent to an alternate address than the voter registration.
  [0m^ This is a general query — select a sample set of these and confirm with the registered voter that they did
  [0mindeed receive a mail in ballot.
  [0m
  [0m3. If above is inconclusive, select all registered voters that requested a mail in ballot against the
  [0m2017-2018 Equifax Data to determine if correlations occur.
  [0m
  [0m4. Select all ballots that were the voter did not vote in the last X elections (there are political
  [0mconsultancies that provide information on who NOT to waste your time on because they do not vote), did these
  [0mpeople request a mail in ballot? Were these ballots sent to an alternate address?
  [0m
  [0mFor clarification [[31m1[0m], if one were armed with a SSN or DL and a previous address, one could request a ballot
  [0mon behalf of another person AND have that ballot redirected to a location of their choosing… including a PO
  [0mBox. The form is included here for reference.
  [0m
  [0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.votespa.com/Register-to-Vote/Documents/PADOS_Mai…[0m
  [0m
  [0mEDIT: just so you know, I think both of them did things like this. I want my d%mn democracy back.

                                                   [1m▶ 42 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 42 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVoting fraud on the scale required to influence a US election is not possible due to voting registration⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrequirements. Registering any significant amount of fake people is not feasible, and if you are trying to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcast the votes of any significant number of real people you will quickly have a collision with someone who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually does intend on voting, leading to an investigation and the whole scheme unraveling.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVoter registration + signature checks + investigating duplicate ballots is a robust system for ensuring that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystematic voting fraud can only achieve a small result without being overwhelmingly likely to be caught. If⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe election had actually come down to a margin of a few thousand votes in a single state it might have been⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworth the resources to do a deep-dive, but with the margins that occurred we can be certain that voting fraud⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdid not influence the result.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mblub[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe claims I've seen were:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m* dead people "voted" in the election⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m* late votes by mail were stamped with a fictive past date⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnyway, I don't see why you're so comfortable with election fraud as long as it doesn't influence the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresult. There is no way to know if fraud happened and what scale this happened at without doing this⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mso-called "deep-dive" you mention.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe election boards of each of the 50 States and the District of Columbia do in fact conduct regular⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maudits, and frequently purge voter rolls of registered voters that have been sufficiently inactive as to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msuspected of having died or moved out of the state. You may have read about such events in previous months⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min the national news.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI don’t see why I would care much if there is voting fraud if I can be certain that it did not influence⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe result. What does it harm me if an election decided by a margin of tens of thousands of votes had some⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfew hundreds or even thousands of illegitimate ballots cast? It’s a tiny amount of noise in a very strong⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msignal. It’s easy for a state to estimate what percentage of the vote could possibly have been fraudulent,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand when the signal seems to be at risk of being lost in the noise there is a robust process of signal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrecovery. But recounts are expensive and a waste of time and resources when they are not needed.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnemothekid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNo one is comfortable with election fraud. Election Fraud is a well researched problem (by republicans⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtoo), and it's been shown again and again that it is an incredibly small problem. You are talking about a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcouple thousand confirmed cases [[31m1[0m] in elections where tens of millions of votes were cast. Claims of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melection fraud are not new.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA bigger problem is voter suppression, through ever growing extraneous requirements (such as Harris County,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma population of 5 million, only have 1 ballot drop off, due to a law to prevent more than one drop off per⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcounty). Voter supression however does not get anywhere near the same amount of attention.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.heritage.org/voterfraud[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnogglet[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBoth of those claims are likely based on this Steve Bannon funded study of voter fraud:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mg-a-i.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/Voter-Fraud-Fina…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mData analysis would indicate that the DOB for many voters are over a 100 years old. Even as mentioned in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis very report, that's because of a technical bug. DOB wasn't required, and when it was, the system used⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msomething like 0000 as the birthdate. The report dismissed these findings, but it seems either the media or⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgeneral public has still been running with it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFinally, it's worth noting the study itself is highly inaccurate:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34melectionupdates.caltech.edu/2017/09/11/report-on-vot…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(edit: updated original link of study to g-a-i, this study is also mirrored on whitehouse.gov)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcharliemil4[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGreat — so let’s just run the queries so I can go to sleep⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’ll happen, but nobody’s going to hold up on calling the election, certifying results, and choosing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0melectors in the meantime.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthingsgoup[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour answer shows a lack of imagination in regards to how fraud might be perpetuated in this situation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs our election systems come to depend on electronic solutions the attack surface increases significantly.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSure, sure, but that's a completely separate topic from voter fraud. And it's also not something I've heard⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manyone alleging happened in the 2020 election.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbutbutemails2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAs our election systems come to depend on electronic solutions the attack surface increases[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msignificantly.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTotally! You should see this 30 second clip on election fraud attack vectors:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mm.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1msparkling[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mVoting fraud on the scale required to influence a US election is not possible due to voting registration[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mrequirements.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIm not from the US, but my understanding of the alleged fraud is that due to coronavirus many states sent⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mevery[0m registered voter a blank ballot (where in the past they explicitely had to request a ballot) and that,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0magain allegedly, some people would habe been able to obtain such blank ballots and vote for their prefered⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandidate?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’ll lead off by mentioning that some states already voted by mail and have for many years. So if there⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere a problem with this approach that enabled mass voter fraud we would be well aware by now.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe “blank ballots” are not blank in the sense that they are interchangeable. Each ballot sent out is the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mspecific ballot of a specific person. It’s certainly possible that some ballots were stolen from their⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mintended recipients and mailed back with forged signatures, but what’s important is whether this could have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeen done on a mass scale to influence the election result. And the answer to that is no. A coordinated⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meffort to fraudulently return enough ballots to matter would require large-scale raiding of mailboxes to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msteal ballots, or stealing ballots in mass quantity soon after they were put into the postal system by each⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstate’s election commission. The former is impossible, as it would require an organization comparable in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msize to the postal service to be able to go house by house stealing ballots as they were delivered, and it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwould be obvious that it was occurring. The latter is easy to detect and trivial to rectify.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn both cases, the fraud would be detected as soon as anyone who hadn’t received their ballot went to their⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstate’s election website and requested another ballot and were informed that their ballot had been⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdelivered and returned.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen it comes to fraud, obtaining a ballot is as easy as obtaining a bank check, for example. It's legal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(in my state, anyway) for various parties to distribute them, and you could print your own, if you had the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mright paper. (You'd be in hot water if your ballot wasn't the exact document the state distributes - it's a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcrime to distribute a ballot that's prepopulated with the user's data, for example)⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe security features of the process do not depend on mail-in ballots being unique or scarce.⁣
  ⁣
    [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis election came down basically to three counties in two states.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt would also explain irregularities with those counties when compared to other counties with very similar⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdemographics.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVoting in the USA is such a joke for it being a first world country. One would expect blockchain based⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msystems or at least a cryptographically based system to exist. The fact that they don't even have a national⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvoter ID. Like seriously how much does it cost to have one and give it for free to every person? Poorer⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcountries have done so with more success. The calls arguing voter suppression are the dumbest, if you are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot smart enough to get a card and vote, then maybe that vote should not count.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt is certainly true that the US is frequently behind the curve of other first world nations on government⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeployment of new technology. This is largely because of 2 reasons. Reason #1, the US historically is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrequently the first place technologies are deployed on a wide scale, and as a result the US generally has⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe earliest and thus the worst version of everything. Reason #2, the US system of federated States⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mintroduces great friction into any system requiring a central authority.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe absence of a national voter ID program perfectly exemplifies this. The US has an election system that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworks sufficiently well, so there’s no major impetus to overhaul how voters vote. And the US Federal⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgovernment doesn’t even [3mhave[0m a list of all US citizens. In fact, no such list even exists. Moreover, a lack⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mof any existing documentation that a person is a citizen does not necessarily mean that they are not a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcitizen due to birthright citizenship or citizenship automatically inherited from parents.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mConcerns about voter suppression induced by the introduction of a national voter ID are completely⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlegitimate. The US Federal government lacks the capacity to ensure that every eligible voter is delivered⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0man ID (lacking a list of all citizens), so the burden to acquire one falls on the individual. If this costs⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmoney, then it constitutes an unconstitutional poll tax. And in any case, since the Federal government is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mincapable of handling such a responsibility it would fall to the individual states, some of which have⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdemonstrated historically that they will act to make the process arbitrarily difficult for individuals that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe sitting state legislature would prefer do not vote.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwillis936[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSchoefield’s third law of computing. Elections [3mneed[0m to be long, painful, effortful processes. Automating it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis a bad idea. An optimal robot-slave humanity would minmax to humans’ only jobs being checking ballots and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msaying hello.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway5752[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis just doesn't happen. This has been a cause celebre of one party in the use for more than a decade and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey have found on the order of a dozen proven examples of voter fraud.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.brennancenter.org/sites/default/files/analysis/B…[0m has hard data.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe problem, which doesn't require citation as it has been in the news for weeks, is partisan voter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msuppression, disenfranchisement (DC, Puerto Rico, Guam), and gerrymandering.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEvery single thing you have suggested has been investigated and have found something on the order of 1* 10^-4⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m% rates of occurrence.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo remind everyone, there was a lawsuit to disenfranchise over 100,000 voters in Texas because of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdisagreement in how their ballots were submitted. Not recounted, not rechecked. Summarily tossed out. > 1000⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtimes more people would have been effected by this one incident than there were provable instances of voter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfraud (most of which was based on confusion by elderly). Limited voting hours, closures of voting stations so⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcommon they are accepted now but they are outrageous.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is leaving aside the well documented actions of DeJoy during his time with the USPS. I would also like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto see an investigation with subpoena of communications of of the company that caused delays in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprinting/mailing of PA absentee ballots [34mwww.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/11/03/robocal…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe US doesn't have a voting integrity issue, it has a voting suppression issue.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0medit: just another example of the egregious attempts at disenfranchising voters:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mktar.com/story/3681236/elections-officials-lawyer-ca…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1minsickness[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRight, so the media can crow for four years about Russia, Russia, Russia having overturned the election but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma few days of ensuring that ballots are legitimate is to be dismissed without warrant? Fuck outta here.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlwansbrough[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNot saying we can’t verify, but the idea that a Russian op would be focused on getting Biden elected is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhilarious.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthrowaway5752[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne involves the media and free speech, while the other involves the state and federal government fairly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconducting an election. They are completely unrelated.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcharliemil4[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe US doesn't have a voting integrity issue, it has a voting suppression issue.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile I whole heartedly agree, I’m concerned how we arrived here. There have been no new additional controls⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mput in place to ensure a dramatic shift in the voter culture (from majority in person to mail in), did not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexpose vulnerabilities previously unused.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjpgvm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe amount of votes submitted via a given method hasn't changed that methods vulnerability. Given how much⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmoney is invested into elections to propel a candidate to victory you can be almost guaranteed that any⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mweakness that could have been exploited has likely already been identified, exploited and patched or is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msufficiently difficult prove (i.e it's not ballot based) as to be continue to be used.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mi.e the ballot counting system is like iOS and a reliable way of getting fraudualent ballots counted is an⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0miOS sandbox 0day. It's so insanely valuable that everyone is hunting for it and huge resources are deployed⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto protect it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOn the other hand other attacks like voter suppression, propaganda, social media manipulation are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msufficiently hard to prove or patch they continue to be used.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdrewbug01[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSelect all ballots that were the voter did not vote in the last X elections[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don’t think there’s anything inherently suspicious about voting for the first time in a long time (or⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mever). This election was incredibly charged, so you would expect to see more people voting than usual.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI just want to push back strongly on the idea that a vote is suspicious just because that voter doesn’t⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtypically vote. It’s a soft form of voter suppression, in a way - and we should be conscious to encourage⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meveryone to vote, regardless of how long it’s been.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m—⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs an anecdote - I encouraged my family to vote, and some of them did: some of them for the first time in a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvery long time. I also served as an election judge and registered more than one person to vote on Election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDay, including one person who told me they’d never bothered to vote before. But their votes were valid, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdon’t deserve to be treated as suspicious.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcharliemil4[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo yeah, totally agree there will be outliers, but it’s definitely a focused sample set that tests the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhypothesis well.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s complex, with a ton of fractaled placed to hide (day of registrations, first time voters etc)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwillis936[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe actual scale of the audit of 100 million ballots is an insane cost with extensive time. The verification⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis built into the system. Key features include: states conducting their own elections, paper ballots being⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrequired, ballots need to have a chain of custody to be valid, and counting is done in a transparent and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcontinuously audited manner.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMaking lists and centralized techniques are a Bad Idea and exactly what authoritarian regimes go about doing.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbaby[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere's no way to have a safe voting system without trust in the government and how states operate. There's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjust no way that, as a citizen, you can verify your vote. It's all in sybil attacks: how do you identify one⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mperson in the first place? You need strong cryptography tied to each citizen, and you need to trust the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment that they are not creating fictive citizens.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDid you ask for this in 2016, 2012 or 2008 too? Just curious. Shouldn't we also make sure that certain⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRepublican voters did not vote in multiple states or counties?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcharliemil4[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don’t think your question is serious, right? Were we in a pandemic that statistically shifted the voter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhabits of a large amount of Americans from in person, physically gated process to a highly leveragable, mail⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min ballot process in those years?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs for 2008, 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016, 2018, and 2020 (there is much power outside of a presidential election)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m— the bus example is the current status quo and has been used for ages and accepted as the norm — that’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeen the “worst/best (whatever your virtue signal tells you) way to influence an election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you’d like to have an honest discussion about it - I’d love to, I’m very seriously in the camp that votes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare votes and every single one should be counted no matter how they arrived to the polls.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mthomastjeffery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mhighly leveragable, mail in ballot process[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt isn't. Mail in ballots have been the status quo in many states for decades.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe most common problem with mail in ballots has been rejection from unverified signatures, which in some⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcases is arguably an instance of voter suppression.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mop00to[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you realize how fucking hard it is to influence elections by ballot shenanigans?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mminerjoe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you realize how much fucking power is at play here?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbutbutemails2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mExactly! I mean if you look at the reports in 2019 the issues were not addressed yet with mayo:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mm.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlettergram[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn Michigan there were ballots sent by dead voters:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34maustingwalters.com/the-dead-vote-in-michigan/[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI found probably 10 of these, some invalidated, some supposedly had the wrong birthdate in the system (which⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprobably should be validated anyway)…⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGov of Michigan apparently took the site down, but feel free to see the video⁣
  ⁣
   [1meinpoklum[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis was not done after the 2016 elections. Why should such a procedure be adopted now? Are there any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mindications of widespread fraud / miscounting / etc. ?⁣
  ⁣
    [1manonymouse008[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere was never any “cover” to hide behind — we never really did much mail in voting as a people (absentee⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmostly).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNow the pandemic is cover enough to hide a few thousand with ease.⁣
  ⁣
     [1meinpoklum[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwe never really did much mail in voting as a people (absentee mostly).[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat is false. An official report of the US Elections Assistance Commission:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.eac.gov/sites/default/files/eac_assets/1/6/2016_…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msays that, in 2016, 23.7% of ballots were mailed in.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjoshuamorton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mA few states have been all mail-in for years. 10s of millions of votes were cast by mail in 2016 and 2018.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere were certainly more this year, but only like 4-5x.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(It helps that the most populous state is mostly mail-in).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHN is throttling me, so here's some more info:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34melectproject.github.io/Early-Vote-2020G/index.html[0m have most of the info you want.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCO, DC, HI, OR, UT, and WA are vote by mail for all elections. CA was sort of doing VBM in 2016, but it's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmore committed to it now. This year, NJ, VT, and NV were also vote by mail as one time things. So in prior⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myears there were more than 30 million mail ballots, and AZ, CA, CO, FL, MI, OH, OR, and WA had more than a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmillion mail votes cast (though some of those were likely classified as absentee in MI and OH).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwillis936[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI’m confused. People who count ballots only count ballots they issue. Sending in 50k ballots they didn’t⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0missue would result in 50k ballots they didn’t issue getting thrown out. Where is there room for concern for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfraud?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1manonu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe country may be divided. But those divisions are manufactured and exacerbated over the last 4 years by a
  [0mmade-for-TV president.
  [0m
  [0mI couldn't help but think, in looking at various TV news channels this past week, that this is all sport. Big
  [0mnumbers on the score board and the play-by-play constantly flashing on the screens. We're the spectators, and
  [0mthe politicians are players on the field. Trump played the field better than anyone.
  [0m
  [0mI hope that a new president and a new administration can show the USA that the division is not as deep and
  [0mworrisome as is portrayed. We're actually all rooting for the same things here.

                                                  [1m▶ 124 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 124 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI disagree. I see a narcissist and a buffoon when I look at Trump, but none of his behavior validates⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0manything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily left-leaning mainstream media.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mapex3stoker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe mainstream media provide unlimited and free ads to Trump. Trump is a savvy marketer. He plays the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmainstream media like a fiddle. The outrageous remarks he said or tweeted are reported relentlessly by the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmainstream media. The way I see it is that whatever Trump said or tweeted are like campaign ads. What the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmainstream media have been doing is nothing but playing campaign ads with rebuttals. The relationship⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetween Trump and the mainstream media is pretty symbiotic.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe things that the mainstream media have not reported enough is his corruption and incompetency. Instead,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey constantly chase after his remarks. I will give you an example. The way USPS is undermined is nothing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbut sabotage. Trump and his officials claimed that they run USPS like business. The mainstream media simply⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreported it along this frame. However, no reasonable business would run like what they did to USPS. Besides,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe moment they claimed that they would revert the changes, the mainstream simply reported what they said.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo, they didn't revert their changes. By reading mainstream media news casually, we wouldn't know that USPS⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas sabotaged. Many people think that Trump administration simply tried to run USPS like business but they⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecided not to due to opposition. The reality is that USPS was sabotaged and the damage is done.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mkbenson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm not sure what you are referring to as the mainstream media. There were weeks of articles about USPS and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhow there were problems. There were [3myears[0m of reporting about collusion and corruption with regard to Russia⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand other scandals. Whether you were looking at Fox or at NY Times or WaPo or CNN or whatever, whether it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas for or against, there was neverending coverage about the Trump scandal of the week, and that Trump's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexplanations were BS. The problem wasn't lack or reporting or criticizing Trump, it was that there was⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0malways a new scandal every week that needed coverage.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtreis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m. I will give you an example. The way USPS is undermined is nothing but sabotage.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe post office was not sabotaged. They're foundering because mail volume has dropped to half its peak and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthey haven't been able to downsize their operations fast enough to keep making money.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe media and the Democrats spent the last year chasing this wild conspiracy theory about the USPS throwing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe election for Trump. It never ever made any sense and, indeed, there's no evidence that mail in ballots⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere tampered with on any large scale.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mzjs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've looked at a few definitions, and I don't see how it's an accurate description of what's happening here.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor example: “Catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion that prompts people to jump to the worst possible⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconclusion, usually with very limited information or objective reason to despair. When a situation is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mupsetting, but not necessarily catastrophic, they still feel like they are in the midst of a crisis.”⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m([34mwww.psychologytoday.com/us/basics/catastrophizing[0m)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe have experienced “great damage or suffering” (i.e., catastrophes), not merely upsetting situations. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmedia hasn't been catastrophizing; they've been reporting about catastrophes.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmlindner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat are the "catastrophes" that you have experienced (disregarding COVID which is a world catastrophe)?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis inaction and obfuscation caused thousands and thousands of people to die from COVID.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe publicly condoned shooting unarmed protesters, and let his DOJ kidnap people in unmarked vans.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe left the Paris climate accords.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThese are catastrophic.⁣
  ⁣
     [1m7thaccount[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou left out being impeached for blackmailing a friendly country for military aid so they would dig up dirt⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon his rival. Also, gutting federal agencies like the EPA, silencing reports from national labs which were⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcritical of the coal industry, and installing Dejoy as head of the Postal Service who immediately had mail⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mequipment destroyed directly before an election which was known to most likely have large amounts of mail⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0min ballots. Not to mention Dejoy has large stock in companies that would profit from the destruction of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPostal Service.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mEdit: forgot to say numerous people close to him and his campaign have gone to jail. Steve Bannon, Michael⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mCohen, Paul Manafort, Roger Stone…etc.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnewacct583[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFor seven weeks in 2017 it was the official policy of our government to remove migrant children of all ages⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrom their parents and house them in a cage. Even now the inevitable bureaucratic messups have lost some of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthese kids; it's possible these families will literally never be whole again. Everyone has their own⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhorrors I guess, but this was what did it for me.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mmleonhard[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump destroyed the United States' Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty with Russia. Without the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtreaty, Russia and USA can make as many nuclear bombs as they want, as long as they say they will only use⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthem on intermediate-range missiles.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis single action by Trump imperils all of humanity.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intermediate-Range_Nuclear_For…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mforeignpolicy.com/2019/08/02/what-does-the-demise-of…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mLordHumungous[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTotal nonsense. Europe has just as many if not more cases. The idea that another president would have made⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0many difference is pure wishful thinking.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtw04[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNone of it? We'll even ignore the easy ones like violating the emoluments clause and blatant nepotism.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWithholding aid to Puerto Rico. Calling for the governor of Michigan to be locked up for implementing covid⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrestrictions then refusing to condemn the folks that attempted to kidnap her.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCharlottesville. Sending in Federal Police to kidnap folks in Portland. Refusing to impose sanctions on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRussia that had bipartisan support. Refusing to condemn Russia for assassinating citizens of other nations⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith chemical weapons. Jamaal kashoggi. Saluting North Korean soldiers. Outright telling governor's he was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwithholding Federal aid unless they did him favors. Etc, etc, etc. "left-leaning media" has absolutely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnothing to do with his train wreck of a presidency.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think he managed to go a single month over the last 4 years without violating the Constitution.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcsnover[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat would have to be true in order for you to feel that the media response to Trump’s presidency has been⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mappropriate?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtetrometal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWell, they've been presenting him as a fascist authoritarian for four years, so if that were true I'd be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minclined to believe their response was appropriate.⁣
  ⁣
     [1modessacubbage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhe would've have actually had to consolidate power in any kind of meaningful way instead of simply bumbling⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthrough the logical continuation of bush/obama policies while being undermined by the intel community/ his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mown generals and the the gop itself every time he tried to do anything that broke from neocon consensus.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhis own justices even repudiated him. ironically, an actual fascist would've used the pandemic as his own⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mreichstag fire, seized power & curtailed liberties to effectively contain the virus instead of simply⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmismanaging a dysfunctional, under supplied & under funded federal health apparatus that effectively let⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe states [3mjust do whatever[0m. italy had tanks in the streets, south korea and taiwan created invasive⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0methically dubious surveillance programs to control movement. the actual white supremacists are mad that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtrump didn't do exactly that.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maside from the bizarre alternative-universe psychodrama that corporate media has been airing for the past⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myears, trump in reality was basically just unremarkable and incompetent.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjtdev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHave you not been watching? They literally manufactured a Russia collusion story and then spent 4 years⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbeating Trump over the head with it. Then they orchestrated a hijacking of the Democratic primary to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprevent Bernie from being on the ticket. Trump is a despicable human, to a degree only surpassed by the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfolks running and representing American media.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mchronofar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's been a constant stream of catastrophizing from them for the last four years. It was like this during[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe Bush years as well, though they do seem to have perfected it.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd the Republicans did the same thing with Obama, which is why he is so reviled among the right. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpendulum swings harder at each cycle, and how people still cannot see how thoroughly they're being⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmanipulated by their party of choice continues to astound me. I get the tribalism, and I get the basic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcognitive gears at play, but it takes only a modicum of self awareness and attempted empathy to understand⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe other side enough to open up the door to doubt, and only the tiniest degree of curiosity to find more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnuanced understanding of issues at play. I do see this in some places, but I see ignorant partisan⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpropaganda far more, and the pendulum swings ever harder.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe devil is the one we make, seemingly blind to the ingredients we carelessly continue to throw into the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcauldron that will continue to produce them, even as one group rejoices that the latest one has been⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdefeated.⁣
  ⁣
    [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m… none of his behavior validates anything close to the crazed response we see from the primarily[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mleft-leaning mainstream media.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah no … at this point if you honestly still believe that, we have to agree to disagree, and I'm glad that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore people in America disagree with you than agree with you.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mLordHumungous[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAt least there were actual catastrophes caused by Bush. Under Trump it was conspiracy theories about Russian⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcollusion.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mweakfish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo covid response wasn't a catastrophe? Ok⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhumanrebar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is as much a product of the divisiveness as a cause. People initially took a shine to him because he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwas a "fighter". They saw a conflict already and wanted a fully willing combatant as a surrogate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjcims[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA couple weeks before the 2016 election Michael Moore (who I’m typically not big a fan of) had one of the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbest reads on why Trump would and ultimately did win that election. I've been politically homeless for a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhile now but still registered Republican as is almost all of my family. Moore's points directly map to my⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconversations with them better than any other explanation I've seen on the Internet.:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34myoutu.be/vMm5HfxNXY4[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it's important to keep in mind that Trump winning the primaries in 2016 was essentially a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrepudiation of the entire Republican incumbency by a good portion of their base.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjoe_the_user[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mJust about every general "reason Trump would win" for last election looks pretty dumb with this election.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBecause basically all those arguments remain true - yet Trump didn't win. These aren't argument for why⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump would win. They were arguments for why Trump has some purchase. The reason Trump won was the elites⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgo so sloppy they let him win, they let their garbage boogieman alternative become the choice because they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwere addicted to having that kind of creep as their opposition.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd Michael Moore's argument in particular is crap among these. Homeless factory workers aren't Trump's⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbase, family construction companies are his base - I see them regularly. The well-off but not college⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0meducated.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy pet theory is similar, but slightly more nuanced, and comes from my history of being harshly bullied in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmiddle school.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe group dynamics of bullying are pretty straightforward. There will always be bullies at the top who want⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto cement their status by showing their power as a bully. To get a significant group of people to go along⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith the bullying, however, (think everyone laughing along when the bully makes fun of someone) that group⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mneeds to be really unsure of their place in the social hierarchy. They know bullying is wrong but at that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpoint are somewhat terrified of ending up on the wrong side of the bullying. That's why you see so much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbullying in middle school, where kids are usually just starting to find their place in the social hierarchy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think in the US (and many Western democracies) there is currently so much unease about economics, about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfinding a good, and more importantly, stable job, that the situation is ripe for a bully to come along and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtake advantage of people's general worries about their place in the world to think "better for me to be a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbully myself than to be the person that ends up on the bottom of the totem pole". Think of the crowd⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlaughing along when Trump mocked a reporter with cerebral palsy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen you couple this with large, structural racial changes in the US, it's not hard to see how Trump was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mable to take advantage.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjquery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPrecisely. Fortunately, it appears most of the country is ready to move on and accept Biden as President. My⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfriends and family who are conservative are happy it’s over, and completely fine with the results. As cliche⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mas it is, they accept that [3m[0mthe people have spoken[3m[0m. The majesty of democratic voting and peaceful transfer⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof power is something beautiful to behold.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHopefully Trump can accept the results sooner rather than later. His instinct to fight at all costs is not⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mserving him well in this situation. Fortunately, it’s futile. As someone said in one of the debates, it’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot up to him whether he gets to stay, it’s up to us.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI hope the the next 4 years are more unified than the last 4.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mAlex63[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou could be right, but I'm not really seeing a lot of evidence that "most of the country is ready to move⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon and accept Biden as President." Not seeing a lot of those Trump rally-goers suddenly deciding that Biden⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis OK. In fact what I see is a lot of Trump supporters outraged about what they believe is shaping up to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbe a stolen election. And a lot of comments to the effect that Trump is not Nixon (1960).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe're actually all rooting for the same things here.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not helping anything to pretend this is true. For example, consider the spectrum of reactions you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwitness among your peers, not to mention on social media, the next time there's a high profile killing of an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munarmed person of color by police officers. I don't think [3mwoo, it's great that we all want the same things[0m is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe feeling you're going to get.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mLatty[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIndeed. Historically I would have said conservatives in the US wanted the same thing (increased prosperity⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor all), and just had different ideas on how that was achieved.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUnder Trump, it has become clear that they (edit: Republicans) want something fundamentally different: to do⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter than other groups of people. They care more about hurting those they disagree with than making things⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter for anyone.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdonmcronald[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYeah. It seems like a lot of people think they deserve to be filthy rich with a large servant class working⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfor them. The economics of it just don’t work though. It takes a lot of working people to sustain the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlifestyle of one rich person.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mNateEag[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI'm a US citizen, a self-identified conservative, and I cannot stand Trump (or the fact that on average,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mconservatives voted for him).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNot all conservatives fit your described profile.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjquery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou were right in the past. The people who want to “drink libtard tears” are a small minority, a mirror⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimage of people on the left who want to throw Republicans into re-education camps.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s curious how many conclusions people draw from a binary choice on a ballot.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI guess it’s true, at least from many of these comments, that many people really want division. They seem to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mneed division to qualify what are otherwise extreme or unbalanced opinions.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat sort of division seems to have cost one party the White House and the other a lot of seats in Congress.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI have no idea what you mean. "Division" (whatever that means) seems to be something you care about, based⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mon your other comments, but I have literally no idea what you're driving at.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrbecker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour peers might be wondering why the only killings that become high profile, are those of people of color.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat was just an example of a controversial topic. I mentioned a spectrum of opinions that were observable⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mamongst peers and on social media, and that is certainly one.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(The premises are false enough that it feels less like a "peers" opinion and more like a "social media⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrando who needs attention" opinion, but I guess that distinction illustrates the original point.)⁣
  ⁣
     [1mamykyta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAre you trying to cast doubt on the imbalance in the occurrence of these killings? That seems naive if I⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0massume the best of intentions.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmellowdream[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDivision was manufactured when Trump became president? So what do you propose as the reason for why he became⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpresident in the first place? Who is responsible for that?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdroptablemain[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGenerally speaking, I would agree with you. However, it's important to remember that there is great economic⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mangst in the United States. Workers' wages have remained relatively flat for 40 years, despite accelerating⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproductivity and inflation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnless a Biden administration can begin to heal and make whole America's large working class, the angst will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcontinue to grow and eventually boil over.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmrh0057[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGo look at the polling for issues and ballout provisions that passed. The US isn't as divided as you think it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjointpdf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor example, these Fox News voter analysis results (and the screenshots themselves) are really something.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRelatively major consensus on things like climate, renewable energy, healthcare, etc.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/existentialfish/status/13237520320004505…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFox News is considered liberal by most on the right these days. Using it as a poll for where the right⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstands is irresponsible at best.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrocodiletears[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI lie to or hang up on pollsters every time they reach out to me. I don't trust them, and I don't know who⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey contract under. They often ask leading questions, regardless. If I ran into an exit pollster, I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwould've told them I wrote in Ross Perot.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI started doing this a couple years ago, when I was called up, and asked to take a survey. The young woman⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon the other end was very polite, and the questions at first seemed reasonable. The further I went into the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msurvey, the more nakedly leading its questions became, clearly meant to support Republican talking points. I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtold her I was done, hung up,and since then I've only given false answers to political survey calls.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf my representative wants my opinion, they can host a town hall, or reach out to me directly. I'll send an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0memail or call their office if there's an issue I care about.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf our politicians know nothing, and receive bad data, then they'll either cross their fingers and be more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstraight about their convictions, or be badly disappointed whenever they try to pander.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mA4ET8a8uTh0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGiven how flawed the polling for this presidency turned out to be, I don't think we should be relying on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem as much for argumentation. Frankly, I am genuinely aggravated over how little was learned since 2016.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGo look at how polls are extrapolated. Specifically give me the exact formula and raw data so I can confirm⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit myself, like we do in other such situations. You won’t find it. Stop trusting polls.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mplatz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe're actually all rooting for the same things here.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think you understand half the country.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe people who most see division are those most looking for it.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mplatz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe people that think everyone is (and should be!) just like them are the most delusional and insulting.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe guy had armies of white supremacist supporters and advisers. He told right-wing extremists to “stand by”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mon national TV.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEvery time you gloss over this, you give a pass to it and to those who knew about it and supported him⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0manyway.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtomtomtom777[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMany of the people that voted for him, "support" him only by means of rejection of the other side.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you are against one party, you will vote for the other. The feeling of being against something is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgenerally much stronger than the feeling of support.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is not just a Trump issue but a bipartisan one, as I wager most of the 75 million that voted for Biden,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msimply voted [3magainst[0m Trump and the GOP as well.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpresentation[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think the true evil here is the two party system, where people have no outlet to express and advance⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manything more nuanced than us vs them mentality. But I don’t think that will change any time soon, if ever…⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbasch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"support" him only by means of rejection of the other side.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's more than that. He hurts them. He is their kryptonite. A shiv in their side. Blocking the other side⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfrom enacting their agenda is one thing, and any republican can do that. he causes liberal tears, and they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlove it. It's like voting for poison ivy instead of sidewalks made of ice. They dont like him, they like⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe pain he causes others. And by extension that makes him admirable, despite not actually giving two⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0manythings about him as a person.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtootie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen you seek the consensus of 150M voters you're never going to get the one you really want. There was a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mstark difference in tone and policy and voters made their intentions very clear. People who voted for Trump⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmeant it. Look back to 2016 when they elevated Trump above other GOP options. They could have had a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgeneric conservative who would oppose liberalism but govern with at least a modicum of dignity and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mprofessionalism and they declined.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchadcmulligan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIndeed, I noticed many of the people dancing in the streets had signs saying "no more trump" as Robert⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHeinlein said "If you are part of a society that votes, then do so. There may be no candidates and no⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmeasures you want to vote for … but there are certain to be ones you want to vote against. In case of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdoubt, vote against. By this rule you will rarely go wrong."⁣
  ⁣
     [1m3np[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis has made me think… I think a lot of the Trump supporters are against many of the things he's doing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mjust because "at least it's not the dems". I think democrat voters will turn a blind eye on an incredible⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mamount of things because "at least it's not Trump".⁣
  ⁣
     [1mrectang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDoes motivation matter? If a voter claims that they are casting a "protest vote", and that vote contributes⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtowards some outcome, why should we believe that they didn't actually support that outcome?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHacker News political discussions are worthless because we are not allowed to explore the possibility that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople sometimes act in bad faith.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjoegaudet[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBoo to this, if you're against one party, abstain from voting for it.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAsk your self, how against the democratic platform do you need to be in order to justify affirming this⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mguy?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSpoil your ballot.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo they rejected someone with a plan to control the virus and address climate change? Cool.⁣
  ⁣
    [1manonu[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCertainly, even the semblance of Trump's association with white supremacy is reason enough for him to go. We⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msaw this evil rear its head in Charlottesville and elsewhere.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut my point is, I very much doubt this is representative of 100% of the Republican electorate. I think its⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobably something like way less than 1%.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump's implicit support of them elevated and amplified them and made them much bigger than they really are.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mepistasis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt's far far more than 1%. Vast legions of his supporters cite him saying things that others are not⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwilling to, and that all comes down to his racist views.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt takes a special sort of doublethink to not acknowledge which views he states that no other politician is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwilling to say.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlumost[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt really doesn't take that many engaged voters to dominate a conversation if it's allowed. 99.5% of the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mrepublican base will vote for anyone with an R next to their title.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mslg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBut my point is, I very much doubt this is representative of 100% of the Republican electorate. I think[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mits probably something like way less than 1%.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSome people just want the trains to run on time. I understand that. However sometimes there are more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimportant issues. In those instances it is hard to see people ignore those issues in favor of the train⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mschedule.⁣
  ⁣
     [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI very much doubt this is representative of 100% of the Republican electorate. I think its probably[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msomething like way less than 1%.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMaybe or maybe not, but 100% of the people that voted for Trump were, by definition, willing to tolerate⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhis white supremacy … otherwise they wouldn't have voted for him.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople who voted for Trump believed that what Biden represented was worse than what Trump was represented.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPersonally, I think they were terribly wrong.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mwhatanattitude[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYou do know Biden gave the eulogy for a klansman right? The hypocrisy from the left is thick.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRobRivera[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mEvery time you gloss over this, you give a pass to it and to those who knew about it and supported him[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3manyway.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI feel this unique cherry picking of obviously terrible stances by President Trump is used to undermine so⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmany trump supporters who chose to vote for him for a myriad of reasons.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIts discouraging to see⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtashoecraft[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf you chose to vote for Trump because of his economic policies and the benefits it would get you, you⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mchose money over the safety of your fellow citizens. You felt your fellow non white citizens were less⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimportant than your 401k. That when white nationalists were chanting “Jews will not replace us” and the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpresident would not condemn them you stood by him.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is a massive list of horrible things this president has done. Many acts of fraud through out his⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mentire life. An open child rape court case. Through all of this they have supported him. It’s not one⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcherry picked example. Trump supporters have nothing to hold up anymore. If you are one, look yourself in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe mirror and say “I have been a terrible human being and American citizen, but I will work to be better”.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump supporters don’t deserve sympathy or respect. Trump supporting republicans need to earn that.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mjorl17[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat I fail to understand, as a foreigner, is how someone can vote for a president who is an outright liar.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mLook no further than his last tweets as of right now. He is denying that he has lost and is insisting that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthere are illegal things happening (I'm not saying there aren't, but I will go the extra mile and say he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhas lost it and that only a manchild would say otherwise — this manchild).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI could not go to bed with a clear mind knowing that I voted for a lying disgusting piece of trash, even if⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat meant that I was voting for the one whose policies I "agreed with the most".⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI guess I _get_ it if you view politics as sports. Sports fans (in the EU) will support their club to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdeath. The president of a football club can be corrupt and they will still probably back them so that they⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcan back the club.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIn both cases, these are twisted, unhealthy stances.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI really cannot fathom how so many Americans can vote for this piece of trash human being. I don't think⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mall these people are bigots, racists or idiots; I simply cannot understand how someone can be comfortable⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith having a piece of shit as the face of the country.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI used to love America and the idea of going to it. I used to think it was lead by hardworking (albeit⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmaybe _too_ hardworking) people. I used to think that maybe healthcare wasn't "that" important because it⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwas _AMERICA_. I can't think like that anymore because a very significant part of the country chooses to be⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mportrayed by an _objectively and openly racist, sexist bigot_.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHeck, I think I'm right leaning on most stuff in life, but I could never ever carry a straight face knowing⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI contributed to this disaster.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI would rather vote blank (I'm a strong believer in doing just that), against the system, than vote "for" a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpig so as to not "vote" for the opposition (a typical argument used by trump "non-supporters who vote for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhim"). At least the opposition wouldn't put America to shame in such a magnitude. In my country America is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnow used as an example of what not to be, what not to do. We tolerate its undeniable leadership in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mworld; we no longer worship it or look at it as somewhat of a better society. It used to be the other way⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0maround. What happened, America?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mepistasis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis is not mere cherry picking, these are actual statements, far outside the norm of any other politician⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mat the national stage, that have resulted in violence and even death in the United States.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHow can you be discouraged by acknowledging the full spectrum of what this president has encouraged? What⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mare you willing to sweep under the rug to white wash clearly bad behavior?⁣
  ⁣
     [1mxlm1717[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThis whole comment thread shows divisions won't be going away anytime soon.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mseanmcdirmid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat reminds me of the McGregor’s legacy joke (a bit vulgar but⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.reddit.com/r/Jokes/comments/feuz6/whats_that_jok…[0m). The gist is that people are noted for the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhorrible/crazy/strange things they’ve done, even if they’ve done other things as well (eg Hitler is never⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgoing to be noted for his work on animal rights and vegetarianism).⁣
  ⁣
     [1mpcbro141[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe point is it should be a disqualifier. There is nothing that can convince me to vote for a person who⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mendorses white supremacists. I cannot compromise on equal rights for all humans.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mgisely[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOur president not only condones white supremacist groups but dreams about harness their hate and violence.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIf noticing the somehow undermines Trump supporters that’s not cherrypicking it’s justice.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtigershark[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat valid reason brings you to vote for a racist? [34men.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_views_of_Donald_Trump[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mspaginal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo he didn’t. This is a lie allowed to continue unabated and it’s done an incredible amount of damage to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjust simple civil dialogue in this country.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mzjs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhich part of the statement are you disputing? That he didn't say "stand by"? That the proud boys aren't⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mright-wing extremists? That the meaning of "stand by" was somehow misconstrued?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFor what it's worth, here's how the proud boys interpreted the comment:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2020/09/29/us/trump-proud-boys-biden…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNah, he did. Matter of public record.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrayiner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe had “white supremacist advisors?”⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtptacek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is real evidence of Steve Miller being a white supremacist; notably, emails have leaked where he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwarmly cited _Camp Of The Saints_. Reportedly, Miller was instrumental in the Trump policy of using family⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mseparation as a deliberately deterrence rather than a grotesque expediency. The burden on accusations⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0magainst Miller has probably shifted towards his defenders.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBannon is a goblin but I preemptively concede that there's not much evidence of his problems being⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mracialized. But Miller you can't say that about.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msupercanuck[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSteve Bannon and Stephen Miller⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtracer4201[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTo call Stephen Miller a white supremacist is probably actually an understatement. Same goes for Steve⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBannon:⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjquery[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump got more support this year among every demographic but one—white males.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis opinion that Trump is a white supremacist, is just that… an opinion. Very few of his supporters saw him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mas a white supremacist. Trump disavowed white supremacy many times. This is divisive language is something I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m’m glad to see Biden avoiding, so far.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhedora[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTrump disavowed white supremacy many times.[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSource? (Preferably in the form of a video, since there is a lot of misinformation about this, and he⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexplicitly espoused white supremacy on live TV during the first presidential debate of 2020.)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mseebetter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou’re delusional.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m2V4MpJD8uGXm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you remember when Obama's AG dismissed charges against black supremacists for voter intimidation and then⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mone of them went on to say "You’re going to have to go into the God damn nursery and just throw a damn bomb⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the damn nursery and just kill everything white in sight that ain’t right." and "drag some of these god⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdamn rusty dusty ass crackers out of their homes, skin their asses alive, hang their asses up by some damn⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrope in some trees, drag them up and down the streets by God damn trucks, sick the pit bulls on them, pour⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0macid on their asses, dump them in a God damn river, bring them back up, bust them in the head with a rock."⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am just curious if you think we should apply the same standard to Obama and his administration.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mhedora[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAfter all that happened, did Obama tell the nut job to “stand down and stand by” with the lynching plan?⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt’s one thing to give someone the benefit of the doubt and be wrong. It is another to explicitly condone⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mtheir behavior after the fact.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m(Also, I’ve never heard of the incident you’re talking about. Searching for the quote leads to some blogs,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut no reputable sources. Are you sure the event happened?)⁣
  ⁣
    [1msjg007[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNah just a bunch of Facebook trolls who convinced 49% of Americans to vote for him .⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfaddypaddy34[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThese things you say aren't even true. He's condemned white supremacists at least 27 times. Listen to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mentire speech post Charlottesville speech. You are an example of the problem you just believe what you hear⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith out checking out facts. Trump has a lot of faults. Stop making stuff up. Also you might want to look at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe "white" supremacists proud boy membership roles you might be surprised at how diverse it is.⁣
  ⁣
    [1maww_dang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1) Observe that the country is divided⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2) Make a divisive statement accusing the other side of creating division⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3) Throw racism and identity politics into the mix, that always helps⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m4) Repeat as necessary⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"Trump Is Losing Ground With White Voters But Gaining Among Black And Hispanic Americans"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mfivethirtyeight.com/features/trump-is-losing-ground-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1marcticbull[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYes he now has 8% of the African American vote up from 6%. It’s remarkable you can find 92-94% of such a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mlarge and diverse diaspora that agrees you’re a bad fit.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe increase in the support levels among Latinx is definitely more substantial, and likely has to do with⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe fact that the right wing has been ginning up fear around “socialism” to a group historically seriously⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minjured by it. (Bearing in mind of course that the definition of socialism which has caused harm in Latin⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerica is the state owning the means of production, and there is absolutely unequivocally zero support for⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat among Democrats — who range from center-right to at most a flavor of social democrat).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mabc-xyz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd Biden has a history of being pro-China, and have made it clear that he wants to end Trump’s China⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtariffs and treat China like we did during the Obama/Biden administration. I’d say that’s far worse, and I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwager the hundreds of millions, if not billions, of people suffering from the hands of the CCP agree.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mepistasis[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think that Obama was far far harder on China than Trump. Trump gave up any semblance of influence in the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mregion, and China has gained massive power due to the absence of US leadership in the area. The tariffs are⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0ma pointless show that have done nothing to weaken China in the least. If Biden follows Obama's direction⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwe will gain far more geopolitical power in the region, but it will be impossible to regain all the ground⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat we have lost on the international stage due to Trump's general weakness and unwillingness to engage in⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbasic statecraft.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mineedasername[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPresident Trump was not working against China's human right violations either. I don't think a change of US⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mleadership is going to make much of an impact on their quality of life one way or another.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mheimidal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mJust to be clear, you are saying that having favorable trade policies with China is worse than [3mdirectly[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[3massociating the presidency with actual white supremacists[0m? Really?⁣
  ⁣
     [1msgustard[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump's weakening of the US's global influence and dissolving its alliance with the EU has been the⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mgreatest gift to China in a generation. All China wants is to be an unchallenged world power.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnewacct583[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAre you equating support for trade with the PRC with… white nationalism?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mm0zg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIsn't it amazing when a "white supremacist" improves his vote share of _every_ minority demographic (getting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe highest share of GOP minority vote since the 60s), and does worse with white men. A goddamn miracle.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is the same guy who received awards from black community organizations before he ran, and had a black⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgirlfriend for a while.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/trump-vote-rising-amon…[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mKaze404[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYeah, an increase to 8% of the African American population from 6% is definitely a miracle. He's clearly a⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfigure of black activism now.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtbwriting[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mYes. It [3mis[0m pretty amazing.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mcortexio[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0myep, i think people became too lazy to use their brain. It sucks that the news lies so much, but people can⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdo research, but no one does, because it takes sooo much time and is kinda stressful. I get why they dont,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbut it's dangerous to blindly believe the news. In the end, news organizations are just money making⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mbussinesses, their is no law that says they must tell you the truth. It's also not possible to have fake⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnews laws, and u dont want them anyway, they are very dangerous.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtootie[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI honestly don't know if Trump did this or just unleashed it. The thing that has kept me up at night isn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump himself but the millions of people who think he's the most qualified person to be president.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mseebetter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe division is manufactured by both political parties. It’s naive to think anything has changed.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbeamatronic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe aren’t all rooting for fascism. Speak for yourself.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdavidf18[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump was attempting to fix the broken H1-B Visa system, raising the wages that one must earn which is only a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstart.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mH1-B Visa, by law, is only for those jobs where there are no Americans to fill the role, eg. theoretical⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mphysicist PhD with masters in data science.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut firms and hospitals use this to get foreigners at cheaper wages to supplant Americans from their jobs⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfrom programmers to doctors (MDs).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden, Schumer, Harris, all wish to make the job market and wages worse for American STEM workers/doctors⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(MDs).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDuring the 2016 primaries, when Disney CEO Bob Iger replaced about 200 American STEM workers with H1-B Visa⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabuse replacements, it was Trump and Sanders who complained vociferously about the illegal use of H1-B, which⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe Obama DOJ did nothing about, perhaps because Clinton received a $100,000 donation from the same Bob Iger⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor the Hilary Victory Fund.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump recently fired the CEO of the federal TVA for attempting to replace 200 American STEM workers H1-B Visa⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabuse foreigners and then made an exec order to prohibit any federal agency from doing so.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden, Schumer want to increase the number of H1-B Visas (Schumer wants to triple them). VP (and former Sen⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHarris) was Democratic sponsor of senate bill S.386 which seeks to double the number of Indians who get green⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcards.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe moves of Trump helps Americans. The moves of Biden, Schumer, Harris harms Americans.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThose are the facts, irrefutable, as have been presented above. So, ask yourself, do I want an American⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPresident that give in to donors like Bob Iger and brings more foreigners into the country or do I want⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomeone like Trump, who cannot be bribed and does what is best for Americans and not foreigners.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnewhotelowner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNone of this things matters, or will bring people together. These are minor issues compare to those who⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mliving on minimum wages, and without health insurance.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou should check all the red counties that voted for Trump and education level plus medium income. Compare⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat to the blue counties.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbenrbray[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNone of this things matters, or will bring people together. These are minor issues[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOk, I'm about as far from a Trump supporter as one can get, but think about how this comment sounds to⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mpeople on the other side. You just outright dismissed a fairly big topic that this person views as⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mimportant.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mtekknik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAt least one reason why there’s division is because the left keeps pointing at education, and that Trumps⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0msupporters “lack any”. Regardless of the facts, it’s insulting. You are also implying that you go to school⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand learn to be liberal. Brainwashed is another word for this which is considered conspiracy theory. You’⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mre also assuming that the entirety of present company is “educated”. Assuming this means college degree,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis is most definitely not true on HN.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mSo, to what benefit do you or anybody have to point out the education level of any voter?⁣
  ⁣
    [1marminiusstahl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mVP (and former Sen Harris) was Democratic sponsor of senate bill S.386 which seeks to double the number of[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mIndians who get green cards.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs that something that you perceive as bad or negative? Please explain why that is the case.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpmiller2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou do realize that once those people [3mget[0m green cards, they are a good ways down the path toward [3mbeing[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmerican, right? Immigration is economically very good for the US, as well.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdavidf18[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBy law, H1-B (which leads to the green card) can only be given for jobs for which they cannot find an⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAmerican to do the job, regardless of salary.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere are plenty of Americans that can program computers, yet they are hiring a lot of people with H1-B,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnot because of special skills which is the intent of the law, but simply because they can program⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcomputers.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlol2143651[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mJust pass a law making everyone legally black, and you've just achieved racial justice, too right?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdavidf18[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI was downvoted for providing facts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAre people against American Presidents, Senators, and House members putting the people who voted them into⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moffice ahead of the foreigners which firms want to hire because it costs them lower salaries?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmerican politicians should serve Americans, not foreigners.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mantlerman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo extend your analogy, the players on the field only have so much they can do—Trump included. Might be worth⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0masking who is in the owner's box, who is betting on the game, and why are we in the stands cheering so⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0maggressively for either side in the first place.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWith Trump out in January, I hope more people are critical and skeptical of the various institutions in our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountry that wield the actual power. For a more in depth analysis, would highly recommend Glenn Greenwald's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtake: [34mgreenwald.substack.com/p/no-matter-the-liberal-metri…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mking_panic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe are one country that's been divided by a news media telling us what to believe. Look no further than the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdead wrong "polling data" — again — to see there's an agenda playing out in our hands and living rooms. If⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myou still believe what you see on MSM, I've got a bridge to sell you.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe don't talk to others anymore. We tweet, we Facebook, we Instagram, we believe what we read on screens and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwe've made companies feeding us what we want to hear rich.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere is a game being played, you've just missed the players.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLook no further than the dead wrong "polling data" — again — to see there's an agenda playing out in our[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mhands and living rooms.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think this is a tired, lazy argument. First, while the polls were skewed they actually weren't that wrong,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand many of the differences are magnified by the fact that the electoral college forces us to chop up one⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlarge poll (the national results) into lots of small ones (the states) where statistically you're likely to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msee more variance no matter what. And as for the skew, the generally accepted explanation that it's easier⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto poll urban, more highly educated people than rural, lower educated people makes much more sense than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere being some coordinated conspiracy.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mking_panic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDon't kid yourself. The polls were dead wrong, they predicted Joe Biden would win an overwhelming popular⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvote. Believing otherwise is naive.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThere is no "generally accepted explanation" for the polling skew, let alone one as obvious as "it's easier⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mto poll highly educated, urban voters than lesser educated rural voter". Believing pollsters are dumb⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0menough to not consider this when conducting polls is lazy thinking.⁣
  ⁣
   [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat division? Nobody I know, in person, goes to protests or stops talking to each other because of how they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvote. I literally mean nobody. No division. The most extreme is that some people I know cry when an election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdoesn’t go their way and then their friends make fun of them.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDivision is a perception created by keyboard warriors and news that needs something to report on and the rest⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof us find crazy people entertaining. If you turn the news off and step away from social media the artificial⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minsanity goes away.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI do understand some major metros have witnessed massive protests this year with large scale property⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdestruction. From the outside looking in it looks like communities with a lack of diversity and severe⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meconomic stratification. I say that because I live in a major metro that experienced none of that insanity⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand this major city is either or about to be the most diverse major US city and is very healthy economically.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcozuya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWow. This is an unbelievable sentiment by a normal, plugged in American citizen. I'm absolutely positive⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat the vast majority of American's have had massively strained relationships due to politics in the past 5⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myears, issues that weren't there before.⁣
  ⁣
     [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat sounds like a baseless assumption. On what data do you come to that conclusion? I heard people express⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe same nonsense during the Bush years and it was just as absurd then. If anything it’s crazy people⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcutting themselves off.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcrooked-v[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNobody I know, in person, goes to protests or stops talking to each other because of how they vote.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGood for you. But some of us have friends who will literally die if the ACA is repealed, so, yes, I have cut⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople out out of my life for supporting the Republicans.⁣
  ⁣
     [1maustincheney[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThen the division, according to you, is self inflicted.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mDarmody[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTrump has changed American politics forever and we'll see that in the years to come.

                                                   [1m▶ 13 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 13 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mashleshbiradar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwe can not look at Trump as a single element, its part of a larger ecosystem, across the globe, propelled by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mheavy polarization, digital illiteracy and echo chambers.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m1_player[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere's an ignorant statement I truly believe in: social networks have ruined the world. They will be our⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdownfall in fact. What we're seeing now is just the beginning.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey're by far the scariest product of the wonderful, world-changing invention called the Internet.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mchrisin2d[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI am in agreement. The web was envisioned as a utopian place where information could flow freely, watering⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mhumanity to grow enlightened.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mBut it turned out that on the web, misinformation is cheaper to produce than true information, individuals—⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mno matter how independently-minded—are no match for corporate and state actors that have vastly more⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mresources and motivation to manipulate, and tribal identity is more powerful than abstract ideals.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhat have we wrought?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExactly, Trump was just a symptom and a lightning rod. The GOP and their supporters is where the true⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproblems lie.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump was nothing without their support. The focus on Trump is wrong I think, don't let yourself be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdistracted by him.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mDarmody[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThat's a stupid things to say. You're saying there's a problem with 50% of the population.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mDon't fall for this kind of simplistic arguments. It's not helpful at all. Things are way more complex than⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think that the motivations of those GOP people, the people that back them (the wealthy donors) and also⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthe electorate are really, really terrible.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mDarmody[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOf course not, but he was the one that ended up being the president.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnomdep[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can say exactly the same about the new "left". Eg: "if anyone disagree in the slightest with me is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mattacking me and he is a nazi"⁣
  ⁣
     [1mdragontamer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAnd the "right" calls everyone a socialist. In particular, the Trump campaign on Latinos in Florida almost⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0muniversally echoed the message of "Biden == Socialism" for the past few weeks.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* Individual mandate? Socialism⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* Tax increases? Socialism⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m* Environmental policies? Socialism⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcptnapalm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mParty realignments do happen. Trump did that to a certain extent, but what happens next will be up to others.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtolbish[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think Fox News has been more of the issue than Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mDarmody[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFox and all the mass media. Pure partisan garbage. Goebbels would be so proud.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mOJFord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[3m[2mKamala Harris also made history as the first Black woman to become vice president, an achievement that comes[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[2;3mas the U.S. faces a reckoning on racial justice. The California senator, who is also the first person of[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[2;3mSouth Asian descent elected to the vice presidency, will become the highest-ranking woman ever to serve in[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[2;3mgovernment, four years after Trump defeated Hillary Clinton.[0m
  [0m
  [0mCan someone explain that last sentence to a non-American? Doesn't it simply reduce the whole paragraph to
  [0m'first female VP'? Or does it mean 'first female senator to go on to government, but not the first including
  [0mnon-senators', in which case.. uh-ok, is that significant?
  [0m
  [0mJust seems like it's slicing her up into as many 'firsts' as possible.

                                                   [1m▶ 5 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 5 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbinthere[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou are slicing her up not the article. It is simply stating that no woman has ever achieved a ranking as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhigh as she did and it also happens to be a woman of color. I don't think it's that hard to understand, is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit? Also, this is indeed significant because it puts hope to so many woman and woman of color that they can⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0machieve it too and not be afraid of be who they are in America.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mOJFord[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not, maybe I haven't explained clearly, because you've just repeated the 'a ranking as high' bit that I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdon't understand rather than answering it. Does it refer to her having been a senator, or to now being VP?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFrom what you're saying, I [3mthink[0m it's that she's first female VP and also happens to be black and also⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhappens to have a South Asian background?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't have an agenda here, I just didn't understand that paragraph, and, if I'm correct in my⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderstanding above, think it was written in just about the most confusing way possible.⁣
  ⁣
     [1mzamadatix[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mComing from the outside it might be easier to work forwards to the statement instead of backwards from it:⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mAll vice presidents (2nd highest executive position) and presidents (highest executive position) up until⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthis point have been white males with the exception of former president Barack Obama who was a black male⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand former vice president Charles Curtis who was native american male. Kamala Harris is a black/asian⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mfemale who looks to be the next vice president.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mHopefully that helps 😊.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchris11[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe makeup of the US government does not reflect it's population. Harris wasn't the first female VP candidate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto run for a major party. Geraldine Ferraro was the first, and Palin also ran in 08. Being a minority⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate doesn't mean they are qualified, but the lack of diversity in the US government is a huge problem.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAbout 50% of America are women, and a large portion of America is not white. That's not represented by our⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment. Those firsts are important.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mOJFord[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's fair enough, I just think if it were me I'd be thinking 'geeze can I just be VP like every white man⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbefore me?' - but who am I to whitemansplain how she/people who feel affinity should feel 😊⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy comment above though was mostly just that from that quoted paragraph I was pretty confused, if I now⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderstand correctly it starts with more specific 'accomplishments' (if finally getting that representation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan be called one) and then generalises massively to a much broader category, in a vague way that makes it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msound like nothing or more specific than where it started.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't know, maybe it's just my reading.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1m3np[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat I’m really curious about now is how the GOP are going to position itself wrt Trump and his rhetoric and
  [0mclaims when he’s no longer in office.

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWho?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn six months time people will be denouncing photos where they appear with him as "fake news".⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlouwrentius[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMaybe it's not true, but I feel as a whole that basically everything the GOP stands for is 'out of fashion'.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel that Trump and the current GOP was a last ditch effort to let the old traditions grab control by any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmeans (even illegal or immoral) necessary to kill abortion, put the gays back in the closet, and so on.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can't imagine that younger people, for who things like homosexuality, transsexuality are totally fine, who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare not encumbered with religious traditions, can even contemplate voting for that kind of worldview from a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbygone era.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut maybe I'm wrong.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamcoastal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m40% of young people supported Trump in this election according to exit polls.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn a sense, this was a bit of a worst-case scenario for the GOP. Trump is out of office and wounded, but not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdestroyed and so able to try to play kingmaker from the sidelines. A large, centrist portion of the GOP would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprobably have liked to see the end of Trump, but now they are going to have to wait for his conviction and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimprisonment to finally be rid of him. Some will try to claim the mantle of racist-in-chief but Trump is a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjealous god and will now allow another to steal focus from him, so I expect some rather petty knife-fights⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor a year or two while Trump goes through a few state trials but eventually some minimum security prison⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwill finally take the phone out of his tiny hands (or at least force him to hoop it if he wants to tweet…)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think this is the ideal outcome for the GOP elite. They have the senate and SC and the white house is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabout to stop being a liability to them. They’re thrilled to not pass any legislation for the next X years⁣
  ⁣
     [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIs it confirmed they have senate majority?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mworik[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFrom a long way away, and well clear of the slings and arrows that Americans are suffering, I would like to
  [0mtake a fleeting moment to wish you all well.
  [0m
  [0mI do think that after such a president it behoves the winners of this election to have a long hard think as to
  [0mwhy the result was so close.
  [0m
  [0mYour nation's people deserve a rest from the division you are suffering. Go well and take the opportunity to
  [0mset a course that is both good for you and worthy of your immense wealth and power.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBeing a centrist, I can definitely understand the desire for more conservative policies, and a rejection of
  [0mmore liberal policies. What has been tough for me personally, though, is to see a person as amoral as Trump
  [0mget so much support. I DO agree that Trump has done some good things, things that before him neither the left
  [0mnor the right was willing to do in a substantial way (mainly his forcing a re-evaluation of our relationship
  [0mwith China). But his utter (and ongoing) disregard for our democratic system, his incessant lying, the fact
  [0mthat all he cares about is loyalty to him but gives no loyalty in return, the insane narcissism, treating the
  [0mJustice Dept. like his personal legal firm, etc., etc.. I just find it disgusting on every level.
  [0m
  [0mThat said, the recent Sam Harris podcast really helped me understand his appeal. And I hope (but am not
  [0mhopeful) that the left tries to mend their ways by refraining from pushing (mainly white, straight men, but
  [0malso others, like the religious) many further from the Democratic party.

                                                   [1m▶ 31 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 31 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1msebmellen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI had a Lyft driver on a business trip in Pennsylvania recently who was a very nice fellow. He was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimmunocompromised, worried about COVID, and said he hated Trump's character.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd yet, he said he was voting for Trump. Why? Because Joe Biden was a [3mpedophile[0m whose son [3mf~~ked underage[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mChinese children[0m and took money from a [3mUkranian dictator[0m to influence US policy.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe saw Biden as [3mmore[0m amoral than Trump. I think this is a significant demographic block that's been ignored,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause the media class doesn't really meet with people of these sort. He was extremely convinced, and I'm⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msure he really believed it. He really seemed upset about the moral quandary of voting for Trump vs. voting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor a pedophile.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowawaygh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe media class is not ignoring these people. It's getting really rich feeding them this poison. The media⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclass consists of more than just a few large center-left outlets.⁣
  ⁣
     [1measyat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe media is not center left. Neoconservatise(Fox) and neoliberal(CNN/NYT) are different shades of right.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWe are watching different points of view of right wing politics argue. Wall street vs petrochemical⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcompanies vs SV, etc… all jostling for position. And all of these people with quite a bit of overlapping⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minterests but slightly different focus i.e. foreign intervention but should the pentagon focus on M.E.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdestabilization or for African and S.A. lithium?⁣
  ⁣
     [1msebmellen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mFair point. I was surprised at [3mmy[0m blind spot, which I think I have because my media consumption consists⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmostly of the centrist media outlets you refer to.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI never realized how influential Bitchute QAnon believers are or One America News Network is either (mainly⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mdue to social media algorithms running haywire).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTristan Harris of the Social Dilemma made some really great points to this effect on his podcast episode⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwith Joe Rogan: [34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=OaTKaHKCAFg.[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mTrump has been blatantly slandered by the mainstream media as racist evil orange man, it was 4 years of⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m'1984' style brainwashing by the left.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mOne of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine, lies, censorship⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand intimidation.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m70M people thankfully did just that, which gives hope in the future of this country.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjancsika[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhy? Because Joe Biden was a pedophile whose son f~~ked underage Chinese children and took money from a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mUkranian dictator to influence US policy.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn other words, voting for Trump because "samy is my hero." 😊⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCould there be a class action lawsuit against the various companies whose recommendation engines hijacked⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople's attention to recommend and reinforce this garbage?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEdit: clarification⁣
  ⁣
     [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mCould there be a class action lawsuit against the various companies whose recommendation engines hijacked[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpeople's attention to recommend and reinforce this garbage?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPeople like to hand-wring about "the algorithm", but then they seem to fall short[[31m1[0m] of understanding that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mexposure, impressions, and engagement are sold to the highest bidders on social media platforms. Not only⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mthat, the platforms allow fine-grained targeting of users based on tomes of data collected on them.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThese recommender systems don't just hijack people's attentions as a side effect of increasing engagement,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mit is by design in pathologically manipulative and anti-user way.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mIt isn't a coincidence that those with money and an agenda[[33m2[0m] can inject money into social media platforms⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mand have their content spread like wildfire.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mkelleycotter.com//wp-content/uploads/2020/02/IJoC_Al…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[[33m2[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Mercer#Brexit[0m⁣
  ⁣
     [1md10r[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mCould there be a class action lawsuit against the various companies whose recommendation engines hijacked[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mpeople's attention to recommend and reinforce this garbage?[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mI think this thought is spot on. The usual defense is "but free speech!". Which would boil down to: "such⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mis human nature". But I don't believe that's the problem. The problem may indeed be selection and⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mamplification mechanisms like recommendation engines tuned to divert max. attention to the medium,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mmasterfully exploiting the vulnerabilities of the human psyche as evolution formed it. The rest is⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mcollateral damage which nobody seems to feel responsible for. Not a sustainable situation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKye[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCarl Sagan had a good, relevant story in his "Why we need to understand science":⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI read it in one of his books, but this is the only good version I can find online.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPDF: [34mplaza.ufl.edu/trishak/Carl%20Sagan%20-%20Why%20We%20N…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mFrom Parade Magazine, September 10, 1989 – As I got off the plane, he was waiting for me, holding up a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msign with my name on it. I was on my way to a conference of scientists and TV broadcasters, and the[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3morganizers had kindly sent a driver.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"Do you mind if I ask you a question?" He said as we waited for my bag. "Isn't it confusing to have the[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msame name as that science guy?"[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt took me a moment to understand. Was he pulling my leg? "I am that science guy," I said. He smiled.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3m"Sorry. That's my problem. I thought it was yours too." He put out his hand. "My name is William F.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mBuckley." (Well, his name wasn't exactly William F. Buckley, but he did have the name of a contentious TV[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3minterviewer, for which he doubtless took a lot of good-natured ribbing.)[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAs we settled into the car for the long drive, he told me he was glad I was "that science guy" — he had so[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmany questions to ask about science. Would I mind? And so we got to talking. But not about science. He[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwanted to discuss UFOs, "channeling" (a way to hear what's on the minds of dead people — not much it turns[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mout), crystals, astrology … He introduced each subject with real enthusiasm, and each time I had to[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdisappoint him: "The evidence is crummy," I kept saying. "There's a much simpler explanation." As we drove[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mon through the rain, I could see him getting glummer. I was attacking not just pseudoscience but also a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mfacet of his inner life.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnd yet there is so much in real science that's equally exciting, more mysterious, a greater intellectual[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mchallenge—as well as being a lot closer to the truth. Did he know about the molecular building blocks of[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mlife sitting out there in the cold tenuous gas between the stars? Had he heard of the footprints of our[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mancestors found in 4-mil-lion-year-old volcanic ash? What about the raising of the Himalayas when India[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mwent crashing into Asia? Or how viruses subvert cells, or the radio search for extraterrestrial[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mintelligence or the ancient civilization of Ebla? Mr. "Buckley" — well-spoken, intelligent, curious — had[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mheard virtually nothing of modem science. He wanted to know about science. It's just that all the science[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mgot filtered out before it reached him. What the society permitted to trickle through was mainly pretense[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mand confusion. And it had never taught him how to distinguish real science from the cheap imitation.[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdjsumdog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe does touch children very inappropriately. And YouTube actively pushes those videos to the very back of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msearch. They're more difficult to find and they're creepy. They don't prove anything, but they're not good.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is plenty of real hard evidence than Hunter was used to peddle influence and spread corruption, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe media completed censored all of that information, from one of the oldest newspapers in the country:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mbattlepenguin.com/tech/the-solution-to-big-tech-isnt…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis should trouble everyone.⁣
  ⁣
     [1msebmellen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mNo doubt the whole matter isn't clean. At those upper echelons I think it's very hard to [3mnot[0m be corrupt.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mJoe Biden's touchiness does bother me, as does the Hunter Biden story. But I don't think that's anywhere⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mnear what my driver was talking about, and I also don't think Trump is better when it comes to sexually⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0minappropriate behaviour or corruption.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mMy driver also brought up Pizzagate and other such (nearly unequivocally) debunked conspiracy theories,⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mwhich makes me suspicious of his reasoning capabilities.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mCameronNemo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI really detest the conservative vs. liberal duality.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mConservatism is not comparable to liberalism. They are not alternatives. It just means a desire to maintain⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe status quo. The opposite of conservatism is progressivism, not liberalism.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn fact most Republicans in the US are liberal-democrats.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI mean, I don't disagree with you, but I feel you are missing my primary point, which is that I have no⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproblem with people that have a strong preference for current Republican policy positions (or, on the flip⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mside, Democratic).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy problem is that Trump is just a man of such awful character that it hurts to see how many supported him,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mregardless of policy preferences. I have never felt this way about any previous president, Republican or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDemocrat.⁣
  ⁣
     [1memmelaich[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mPerhaps it's often been that way in the USA (and elsewhere).⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mThe outsiders make the progress.⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mReading [34mwww.amazon.com/Renegade-History-United-States/dp/141…[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0m"A Renegade History of the United States" by Thaddeus Russell⁣
  ⁣
     [1mbeaner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mWhen considering a person of "awful character," a lot of people make the rational decision to nonetheless⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mvalue the benefit of 320 million people as more important than retribution against that one person, if that⁣
    [0m[32m▎[0mperson's policies benefit the rest.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKarunamon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolitical designations are contextual, not universal. Liberals call themselves liberals and most people in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe country understand what that means. Definitions used in other countries are irrelevant.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mby refraining from pushing (mainly white, straight men, but also others, like the religious) many further[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mfrom the Democratic party.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAccording to these Fox News polls[[31m1[0m], that shouldn't be a problem given their views.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis election also saw a drop in white male support for Trump.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mimgur.com/a/YxxnynP[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAm I missing something? That imgur gallery has a bunch of polls but I don't see anything about a drop in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhite male support for Trump.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgigatexal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI’d love to see an AOC/O’Rourke ticket sometime in the future. Both sides could do with a culling of the old⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand an infusion of new blood.⁣
  ⁣
    [1meric_b[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mErmm, I read parent's comment as an appeal to moderation. I'm not sure how AOC is going to help anything?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnd I hope (but am not hopeful) that the left tries to mend their ways by refraining from pushing many[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3m(mainly white, straight men, but also others, like the religious) further from the Democratic party.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBoth sides could do with a culling of the old and an infusion of new blood.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDon't know if I could have come up with a better example of the unhelpful language I'm talking about if I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtried. Why would some white guy, say, in his 50s want to be on board with your "culling of the old"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrhetoric?⁣
  ⁣
    [1m_prototype_[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA person that wants to put Trump supporters on a hit-list (AOC) and someone willing to force weapon⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbuy-backs upon the population (Rourke). What an amazing combination for triggering civil unrest and possible⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwar.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGet out of your bubble⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpjc50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mleft tries to mend their ways by refraining from pushing (mainly white, straight men, but also others, like[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe religious) many further from the Democratic party.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGenuine question: how can this be done without giving up on the people who don't match that description?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is the million dollar question, and honestly I don't really know, but would love insightful discussion⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon this topic.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI thought the Sam Harris podcast really hit the nail on the head. The messaging from the left for the past⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m10-15 years has really had very little to offer straight, white men at a [3mpsychological[0m level. The rhetoric⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis pretty constant around wanting more diversity as a first, primary goal (meaning fewer straight white⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmen), constant talk of privilege (you should be ashamed not just for trying to take pride in your own⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccomplishments, but you're guilty of your parents' and grandparents' sins as well), hyper-vigilance against⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlanguage that has even the slightest resemblance to a color or culture (no more master branch for you),⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoing things once seen as "manly" is now filtered through the lens of "toxic masculinity".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd to be clear, I don't even disagree with many of these ideas. But in a democracy why should we be shocked⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhen people vote in their own selfish interest?⁣
  ⁣
    [1meric_b[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can support people of color without actively denigrating straight white men.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOr, you know, we could stop focusing on race, gender and sexuality so fucking much.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe most important thing about a person in 2020 is their race it seems. Followed closely by their gender and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msexual orientation. That is what needs to change.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrobertoandred[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe left just made a white straight religious man president.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThose who feel they're being pushed out are actually leaving voluntarily because they don't like that others⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare being allowed in.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtonitosou[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen you say "Amoral" some facts backing it up would be appreciated for the sake of the debate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhn_throwaway_99[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI honestly don't believe this is a serious question, and anyone paying any attention over the last 4 years⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcouldn't believe it is a serious question either.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut to humor you, here is a good summary from Olivia Troye, former Republican member of the White House⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCovid task force and aid to Pence: [34mslate.com/news-and-politics/2020/10/olivia-troye-whi…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBasically, Trump's [3monly[0m concern about Covid was how it would affect his re-election chances. And this isn't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjust some "disgruntled staffer". Basically everything she says backs up Trump's [3mown[0m public pronouncements of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0monly seeing Covid as some politically motivated attack, instead of one of the most serious threats facing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mour nation in decades.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump has been [3mextremely[0m transparent that he only views events as how they will help or hurt him. That's a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvery fair definition of amoral to me.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpvaldes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwhen you say "Amoral" some facts backing it up would be appreciated[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt depends on the definition of amoral that each one has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor many people, dating porn stars while married would be a good definition… but some adults have open⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmarriages, that's true.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost people in the planet would say that snatching babies from their parents (and basically laughing about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit) is definitely amoral. Double bonus if you do it while accusing other to conspire to kidnap children⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwithout showing any proof of that.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd telling citizens for months to go out unprotected in the middle of a potentially lethal disease, when⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou are fully aware of the danger and after more than 200.000 people died for this disease, is not much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcolinmhayes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEveryone knows you're here in bad faith. Try harder.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGuardianCaveman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSlowing down the testing. Children in cages. Family separation.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mlayer8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI just realized that Trump could become presidential candidate again in 2024 for a second term. So it might
  [0mnot be over yet.

                                                   [1m▶ 21 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 21 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcesarb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think the USA has anything like Brazil's "Clean Record Act" (Lei da Ficha Limpa), but it's not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munlikely that, once Trump leaves the presidency, he will face several lawsuits, and the outcome of these⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlawsuits might lead to him not being able to become a candidate for a while.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msamename[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHas a US president ever won (or even ran for) a non-consecutive term?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msrtjstjsj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGrover Cleveland won the popular vote 3 times in a row but lost the Electoral Vote in the middle.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmjw1007[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMore recently than Cleveland, Theodore Roosevelt ran for a third term, as a third-party candidate, four⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myears after leaving office.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe came second.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mperennate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI googled it: [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJap2-0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, Grover Cleveland⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOnly Grover Cleveland.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Cleveland[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mghaff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, Grover Cleveland.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mLarryMade2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGrover Cleavland⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdom96[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI wonder what will happen to Trump now though, isn't he at risk of going to prison?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mMacsHeadroom[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI wouldn't bet on more than a few weeks of prison time, if that.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPowerful people won't let powerful people go to prison because it threatens their own position as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0muntouchable. Don't count on it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1manonAndOn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mZero chance the Republican Party would endorse someone who lost a national election. Arizona Republicans are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mno-doubt regretting putting a one-time loser in a position to lose yet again.[[37m0[0m]⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m][34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martha_McSally[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1m_wzf1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere was zero chance they'd have nominated Trump in 2016 too, at first. Maybe it's hard to remember what a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjoke he was at the beginning, and even through most of the campaign. I'd say the chances are much higher⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthan zero that the pro-Trump base would win him the nomination again if he ran. It's easy to imagine him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpulling media stunts for the next 4 years in preparation for just that.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlayer8[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump did better in the election than predicted, and he has a very solid base. Without Covid the outcome⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmight have been different.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat being said, I hope that you are right.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmrlala[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo could you. I'm not sure what your point is? That is about the most ridiculous statement ever.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCareer republican politicians HATE TRUMP whether they admit it or not. They had to put up with it, and kiss⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis ass, and fuck them for it. But they aren't stupid.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is done. If you honestly think he has any chance after this is over I don't think you have been paying⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mattention over the years.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmyroon5[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhich News Outlets Have Called the Presidential Race:
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/upshot/networ…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mblantonl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFirst thing I am going to do is submit my resume for open tech leadership and policy positions in the new
  [0madministration. If you are in a position with experience and financial comfort to serve your country with
  [0mregards to science and technology, the Biden administration will almost certainly be a great place to land.
  [0mLook for policy and leadership positions in the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy.
  [0m
  [0mI'll be submitting my resume and cover letter just as soon as the transition team site opens.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbetwixthewires[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFor a site full of engineers I'm surprised to see the discussion center on partisan politics, talking points,
  [0munsourced claims and demands for sources, bickering over every detail, when what I'd want to talk about among
  [0mtechnical people is the fact that Biden hasn't actually won, based on the rules of the system. He claimed he
  [0mwon. So did Trump. Neither are backed by anything tangible, yet. It looks like the PA AG has called for a
  [0mstatewide audit of votes, several court orders have been issued in several states, including Michigan and
  [0mWisconsin, there are lawsuits in several jurisdictions, and recounts in Georgia and Nevada are going to start
  [0msoon. Notice how I'm not saying the lawsuits and accusations are founded, because I'd like to talk about the
  [0msystem.
  [0m
  [0mThis is far from over. You could have votes invalidated. This is only over when the electors travel to DC and
  [0m270+ vote for one person. That could be halted. You could see the house delegations vote, you could see state
  [0mor federal courts rule, you could even see some state legislative bodies make decisions on it.
  [0m
  [0mIt takes a lot more than a claim of victory and a news organization calling it for an election to be over, and
  [0mI'd expect a bunch of very smart people to know that.

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbaumandm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not sure why you think people don't realize this.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt is well-established tradition for both news organizations to call races and the apparent loser to concede,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwell in advance of December 14th.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden's lead in both the electoral votes and the state margins means that in order for Trump to win, he would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mneed to flip multiple states. Recounts typically only move a few hundred votes, and his legal challenges⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhaven't seen any traction.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo yes, it's technically not over yet, but it is incredibly unlikely to have any other outcome.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is only over when the electors travel to DC[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe electors do not, in fact, travel to DC, at all. [[37m0[0m]⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand 270+ vote for one person.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you are going to be excessively legalistic, it's not over until the electoral votes are reviewed, judged,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtallied, and reported by Congress. On the other hand, by design, by law, and by established practice, in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvarious combinations for the various components, pretty much all of that process after the public vote and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtallying is ministerial rather than discretionary; and the established practices for transition of power in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man open seat or incumbent defeat situation very much rely on proceeding based on the known outcome before all⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe various ministerial acts are completed.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.archives.gov/electoral-college/roles#meeting[0m “On the first Monday after the second Wednesday in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDecember, [3mthe electors meet in their respective States[0m to cast their votes for President and Vice President⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof the United States.” [emphasis added]⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfarrarstan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEngineers are dumb as hell in a lot of ways dude. Also the sun could blow up tomorrow and boy then we would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mall look stupid!⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhaunter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a european outsider I see big social media (Twitter, FB, Reddit etc.) as the loser here, no matter the
  [0mpresident.
  [0m
  [0m- Dems already hated them because they were "complying" with the right/far right. Not enough removal,
  [0mdeplatforming etc.
  [0m
  [0m- Reps also hated them because of all the removal and deplatforming, "free speech" problems etc. Then HN
  [0mreplies with the "They are a private company so they can do whatever they want" > which leads the conundrum
  [0mwhen Google banning accounts and the whole site gets upset about it. [[37m0[0m]
  [0m
  [0mJust the week before the election Vice had an article, "Facebook Has Always Been Right-Wing Media" [[31m1[0m]. It was
  [0maptly removed from here but shows the upcoming struggle which I think as I said above will be much worse for
  [0msocial media sites
  [0m
  [0mInteresting times for sure.
  [0m
  [0m0, [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=24965432[0m
  [0m
  [0m1, [34mwww.vice.com/en/article/n7vvwq/facebook-has-always-b…[0m

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthinkingemote[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou should add the 4 years of "Russian control over social media" narrative which has suddenly disappeared⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhonkycat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI'm glad we got Trump out of the white house. But I'm still skeptical.
  [0m
  [0mThe growing divide and threat of civil war ( not going to happen btw ) are nothing compared to what will
  [0mhappen in the next 50 years of we do not have a green new deal.
  [0m
  [0mClimate change, and its little brother over fishing and unchecked exploitation of our environment, is an
  [0mexistential threat to the human race. Bernie took it seriously. Warren took it seriously. I'm not convinced
  [0mthe new establishment takes it seriously. We need radical action YESTERDAY. More business as usual is not
  [0mgoing to cut it.
  [0m
  [0mFurthermore, the new administration doesn't believe in Medicare for all. They plan to do nothing about the
  [0mcurrently broken system which causes 40% of people who are diagnosed with cancer to spend their entire life
  [0msavings and often go bankrupt as a result of something that is not at all their fault.
  [0m
  [0mDemocrats down ballot got massacred, well progressive policies like decriminalization of drugs, and raising
  [0mthe minimum wage passed with large margins.
  [0m
  [0mI'm glad we won but this was a mess and we're still not getting towards where we actually need to be:
  [0mpreventing the apocalypse

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mRedBeetDeadpool[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPreventing the apocalypse is not going to happen with just the US pursuing green tech, so its a moot point.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe have to get the rest of the world on board, and that's simply not going to happen because there will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malways be a country that wants to improve the lives of their citizens, and thereby want to climb up the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meconomic ladder, and as such will seek the advantages to be gleaned from the disproportionately more powerful⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfossil fuel.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSorry to be such a pessimist, but there's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magreeing to pursue sustainability. Politics has no power here. Its just a bad strategy that puts anyone who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpursues green tech at an economic disadvantage, a sort of prisoners dilemma. Anything else is just⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfantasizing that we live in a non competitive world.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy advice: move to a colder state.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcgrealy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthere's nothing that's going to stop climate change except the free market agreeing to pursue[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msustainability.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is exactly the attitude that got us into this situation in the first place.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe free market will NEVER voluntarily choose compliance costs. The value simply isn't there.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe free market is an engine to optimise profit. That's it. All other considerations are secondary.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile there is a market niche for "ethical products", that is ultimately (and somewhat ironically)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munsustainable without regulation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf I start a business behaving ethically, using renewable energy, paying my employees and suppliers a fair⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwage, etc… my only hope is that I can attract a niche market that will pay a premium for that. But history⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas shown us that is simply not the case.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRegulation levels the playing field. Otherwise, we would still have child labour, weekend work, dangerous⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mworking conditions, etc.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs for the argument that other countries will ignore this: 1: other countries AREN'T ignoring this. The US⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis the one that pulled out of Paris 2: The US is the still the biggest economy in the world. If the US⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgovernment imposed regulations that all business must act in a sustainable fashion (including the supply⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchain) the rest of the world would have to follow through.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSnowProblem[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHere's a dark thought. If Trump really did win the election legimately, and there really was widespread voter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfraud, play out how both sides would react. Consider that Biden has already been declared president-elect by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe media. We may be weeks away from civil war and not even realize it. Of course, I think this is a big if,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbut it's a scary thought.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1myingw787[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCongratulations to the President-elect, and to the government workers and volunteers at all levels who
  [0mtirelessly worked around the clock to ensure our elections were free and fair.
  [0m
  [0mI think these next few weeks is a time for reflection, so that all of us can work hard to create the future we
  [0mwant. Wishing everyone well and to breathe in and out regularly, it's been a stressful year.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mBooneJS[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis isn’t and end, it’s a new beginning. Talk is cheap, and if Biden wants to heal the nation he’s going to
  [0mneed to walk the line between disparate groups. Go back to first principles on what it means to be an
  [0mAmerican, adapt it for 2020, and make more room at the table for people who will debate and compromise instead
  [0mof point and shame.

                                                   [1m▶ 5 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 5 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmmastrac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhy is this up to Biden? Why didn't Trump do this over four years?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkelnos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's up to Biden because this is the hand he's been dealt. He doesn't get to cry "no fair, Trump should have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdone this" and sit on his hands.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpreordained[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause, saying "look at the other guy" isn't a solution⁣
  ⁣
    [1mBooneJS[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs my mom told my brother and I: I don’t care who started it. I care who ends it.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msfblah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mJust curious. Does anyone have a reasonable response to the following contention:
  [0m
  [0mTrump claims to have engineered the world's greatest economy, but in fact he has just benefitted from the Fed
  [0mholding rates artificially low in spite of an ongoing economic expansion. In other words, he's taking credit
  [0mfor something he essentially had no hand in.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnostromo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's more complicated than that.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor example, rates were lower under Obama and the economy didn't perform as well.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut — the truth is, presidents just don't matter as much as we think they do when it comes to the economy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m11thEarlOfMar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHis tax cuts, coupled with loosening energy regulations, led to a great deal more buying power for US⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconsumers. Gasoline, heating oil, coal (clean) for electricity generation have the US a net exporter of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0menergy for the first time in decades. Energy costs plummeted, putting more $ in consumer pockets.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat drove the economy to new heights. The US Unemployment rate was at all-time lows prior to the pandemic.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEven now, it are already back into the 'marginally acceptable' range at 6.9%.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mSCAQTony[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhen you look at countries that are unified and act as a cohesive state such as Switzerland, Korea, Norway, or
  [0mSingapore, what they have in common is culture.
  [0m
  [0mLos Angeles is nothing like Wichita. Beverly Hills is nothing like Miami. Multiculturalism produces many great
  [0msubjects such as art, food, music, dance, poetry and great looking kids. But with amazing advantages comes
  [0mequal disadvantages. These include racial tensions, religious tensions, political tensions, and gender
  [0midentity strife.
  [0m
  [0mBiden will probably fail at unifying our country though I hope not. How do you unify those who appreciate
  [0mcivil war monuments and "Dukes of Hazard" reruns with BLM supporters and Cardi B music videos?
  [0m
  [0mThe only way the United states would come together would be by way of a terrible unifying threat that scares
  [0mthe hell out of the nation or a "Grand White Swan" payout like universal basic income.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1m0xB31B1B[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI kind of entirely disagree with the your read on the situation. The struggles that America has aren't that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit doesn't have a common culture, the struggles are that it has too many veto points in its political process⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mso it is extremely difficult for popular majorities to execute on a political vision, and it is extremely⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdifficult for the population of the country to hold their leaders accountable when the multiple veto points⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlead to a diffusion of responsibility. The struggle we have is that popular majorities cannot enact their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolicy preferences, and then do not receive electoral feedback based on the policies they enact. America⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdoesn't need a common culture, it needs a better feedback loop for things to go from idea -> popular will ->⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical power -> policy change -> impact on the people.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis ^ 100%. Sure the election process may be democratic but the way bills and laws are passed are not. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpower is in a handful of people who don’t represent the will of people. Instead we’ll see painful 4 years⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhere things get blocked on the merit of “Democrats wrote this bill therefore it must be rejected and vice⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mversa”.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mganeshkrishnan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNeither Switzerland nor Singapore has a unified culture. People from German speaking Zurich are not the same⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mas french Speaking Geneva or Bern. Likewise for Singapore there is a community of Tamils, Malays, Chinese⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0metc. I grew up in extremely multicultural environment and can assure you that there were no identity issues.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThese issues popup once class/money imbalance pops up.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt the root of it all is wealth disparity. The rest of it is just a facade.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mopportune[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMy biggest concern is how seemingly so many conservative people are becoming huge conspiracy theorists. I
  [0mdon't mean normal conspiracy theories like there being something more behind the JFK assassination, but like
  [0mQAnon, Bill Gates injecting people with microchips, Pizzagate, etc. A lot of people in my own family in a
  [0mrather backwards state believe that stuff. It's making me completely lose faith in this country and I'm
  [0mseriously considering getting out because of this widespread idiocy.
  [0m
  [0mHow do you even begin to "meet in the middle" or have reasonable conversations with people who believe in that
  [0mstuff?
  [0m
  [0medit: Don't really understand why this was de-nested from the original parent comment down to the third-fourth
  [0mpage 😕

                                                   [1m▶ 64 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 64 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1maazaa[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDid the president merely tap into this simmering sentiment, or did he inflame it?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRecently, Glenn Greenwald wrote about the reluctance of large news organizations to even mention the Hunter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden laptop story.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mgreenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-int…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs someone who sees this story as hard to believe for a number of reasons, the broad resolve among large news⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0morganization to avoid that story raises some serious questions in my mind.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is not how the press is supposed to work. And it's definitely not how the press reacted to the Steele⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDossier, which has similar problems with provenance of information and motivation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat kind of environment in which the press seems to take sides makes fertile ground for conspiracy theories.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you can't trust the press to be unbiased, then how can you believe anything they say? Along comes someone⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho claims to have all the answers and away you go, full speed to QAnon Station.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA lot of people believe the Russia investigation was in fact its own form of conspiracy theory, cooked up by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma party outraged that it lost an election it thought it had in the bag.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjgoewert[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo, why should news organizations give credit to a story whose primary source is a very out of scope Rudy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand even the editor who wrote the initial story wouldn't pen their name to it because when they even tried⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdoing basic preliminary journalism to confirm any part of the story that they were left with zippo and the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0monly reason it had to be written is that their bosses wanted it?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe only serious question about it would be that who in their right mind would believe a story that Hunter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mflew across the US from CA to NY to use some shifty $35 hole in the wall laptop repair place, drop off a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpile of laptops, fly home, completely forget about them, the owner then decided to dive through personal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdata and found "bad things", instead of taking them to the FBI or police, decided that Rudy Giuliani needed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem, which then Rudy sat on them for a few months before letting anyone know. Oh, and the mere possession⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand non-reporting of the "bad things" on the laptop are a felony in and of itself. Wow… interesting that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactual journalists wouldn't even give the story the time of day.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you expect CNN to do daily breaking news segments on how Sandy Hook wasn't fiction because some right⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwing radio opinionist is still spouting off daily that the dead kids were actors?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Steele dossier came from an information agent with a background of competent and viable information and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjournalists worked on vetting the information before sending any out.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msagichmal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm confused as to your intent here. The Hunter Biden laptop story [3mwas[0m one of those QAnon conspiracy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheories.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprojektfu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor one thing, the Steele dossier was hinted at but not actually released during the election. That's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munderstandable, as it was a piece of opposition research. I read that the Steele dossier was delivered to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe press for a while before Buzzfeed leaked it. Then it was discussed as news.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe news organizations were sitting on the document and afterward they said they were verifying its claims.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdkarl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLarge news organizations [3mdid[0m run stories. They investigated, found no corroborating evidence, and ran boring⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstories to that effect. Glenn Greenwald also investigated and found no corroborating evidence, but he hated⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat some people might take the lack of a smoking gun as evidence that there was no corruption connected to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden, so he thought the media should use this shady, unlikely, as-yet-unsubstantiated story as a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtitillating hook to talk really loudly about all the possible ways that Biden and his son [3mmight[0m be corrupt.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI can kind of see his point, since everybody in Washington seems to regard Hunter Biden as a completely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munexceptional person of no particular merit who makes huge amounts of money because of who his father is,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand that should be a scandal, though more a general scandal about the system than about the Bidens⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspecifically.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOn the other hand, that's no excuse to make a huge news story out of an unsubstantiated story fed to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmedia by partisan operatives a few weeks before an election. If they did that, these stories would arise⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbefore every election, and part of the political contest between the parties would be competing to come up⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith the best juicy lies. Considering what a free buffet that would be for the media, I'm honestly surprised⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat they managed to refrain.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdatway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat is coverage of the Hunter Biden story supposed to say? Rudy Guiliani claims he has a laptop that has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome emails but refuses to produce the laptop. There is no way a news organization can verify the claims,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand the claim itself is just hearsay.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe reason it hasn't been covered is because there is nothing a news organization can publish about it. Fox⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNews passed on it. It is most likely simply bullshit.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msenux[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think you raise a good point here, but one that is essentially invalidated by years of journalism that's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmostly funded and managed by people with a lot of interest in the political discourse.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVery little of "the press" or "journalism" that reaches the true majority of people can be considered much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore than entertainment television. Not only that, they have very clear goals, partisan alignments, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdeals to own up to.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy point being, this picture of "the press" is not new nor is it simple to unravel, especially because a lot⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof the coverage we see, and how it's done, depends on a multitude of factors.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLet's take, for example, your point about the Hunter Biden story and let's allow ourselves to conjecture for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0ma moment.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn a "press" state such as the one I described above, a big part of the "news media" is running amok with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe story regardless of having little to no evidence to back it up. On the other hand, the world is still⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspinning and news that are noteworthy are still coming out. One might even say people should know about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthese things.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat's one to do in face of such situation? Do we expect that the "news media" devote all focus to arguing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe conspiracy theory, which will most likely boost the conversation around it, or should we expect the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"news media" to focus on things that can actually be proven, assessed, researched?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOf course, this is one narrow example that only scratches the surface of something that, like I said, is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvery complex. But I do believe that, considering the current environment, it's more harmful to debate the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconspiracy stories than to ignore them. Consider any other conspiracy theory that you ever heard of. Would⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit be beneficial for anyone to have constant debate on television about whether or not the Earth is round,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mor if men have been to the Moon, etc.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGuvante[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo the core problem with most of the complaints about it is that nothing substantial ever came out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimplicating Joe Biden in any way. Some people claimed there was evidence but none was presented.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe news as a whole shrugging off a story about Hunter Biden makes perfect sense, it wasn't about Joe except⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min so far and Hunter might have name dropped him.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mzamalek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe conspiracy theory for the conspiracy theory is that his campaign owns/runs Q. Q is responsible for many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof the other conspiracy theories following that.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn my opinion everyone needs to cool down. America is polarized over being correct, not being happy.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mAngostura[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is not how the press is supposed to work.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt really is. As a former journalist, I can tell you a lot of crackpot stories come across our desks. We⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlook at them, will see if the evidence can ‘stand up’ the story - if not, it gets spiked.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mxenadu02[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHunter Biden wasn't running for president. He's an adult responsible for his own choices. If he were trying⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto profit off his father he'd hardly be the first child to attempt to do so - that probably applies to a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthird of congress.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor some reason I just can't get the thought out of my head that if this were a kooky story about a rando⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlaptop repair shop in San Francisco that claimed it had Ivanka's laptops with proof she was doing something⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnefarious you wouldn't have any of these same qualms about the news media treating it skeptically.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmythrwy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEven worse the people have been watching the media fibbing to them nonstop for 20+ years, since Iraq at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleast.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is how you get people like Alex Jones. People see the lie, start looking for the truth and here is guy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msaying "I'll tell you what is really going on!" and if they weave a coherent soundings story (which the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmedia fails to do… they just move on to the next talking point) people take it as reality.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo matter how you feel politically the media is a big part of the divide issues in the U.S today. They have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbehaved horribly irresponsibly.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msharken[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI’d say Trump tapped into the sentiment of conspiracy theories by adding many of his own.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut in Europe, America have always been bigger and crazier, so it’s not a big surprise to hear about the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconspiracy theories.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHopefully the US can now move forward in a positive and constructive way, but the two-party system does seem⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto get in the way of improving things. Either you’re for or against, without any real middle ground.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf Biden can overcome that he is already on his way to become a great president.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSoSoRoCoCo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mGlenn Greenwald[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat is going on with him? I started following him in ~1997 when Salon.com was a burgeoning news site. He's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtaken some pretty extreme views since (essentially) expatriating.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcanadaduane[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is affecting me, too. I see immediate family members (especially older generation) unable to distinguish⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msources of truth. It makes me reconsider China's state-run propaganda system filtering what people are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mallowed to see/hear. Perhaps western civilization swings too far towards individualism when railing against⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe value of groups & institutions digesting information first.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdatway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mChinese people cannot have a say on things like Xinjiang in their own country because of the influence of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe party over their media ecosystem. We can improve ours significantly, undoubtedly, but I would look more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtowards Europe than China for alternatives. Germany spent years Nazi proofing their system and so far the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresults have been not bad.⁣
  ⁣
    [1miso947[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy 90 year old man had a burglary here in the U.K. while she was at home. They didn’t get anything, a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mneighbour scared them off.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mShe was obviously shocked about it.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRumours spread on the local Facebook group and was picked up by the local paper who ran a story two week⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlater.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy Nan then read about how lots of things had been stolen from her house and now believes the paper, not the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreality she had lived.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf people are willing to believe what they are told third hand rather than what they know themselves, what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhope is there?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnine_k[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut don't state-run information filters exploit the gullibility flaw, not alleviate it? In other words, how⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo you tell?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpm90[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you look at how the elections were conducted with county level governments effectively counting vote⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtallies without any serious claims of errors, that may offer a hint as to what might work: stronger local⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msources of news and journalism.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSocial media ravaged the local news industry and exposed every hick town to the insanity of conspiracy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheories. Better regulation of social media, investing in local news and journalism may be one way to allow⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtowns to get back sources of information that they trust and believe.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn fact instead of the stupid “everyone learn to code” pipe dreams, more investments in local journalism may⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhelp revitalize smaller towns to a certain extent. Local journalists focus and investigate local issues;⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey improve the quality of state services.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgimboland[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mInterestingly, it's not just conservatives. I'm in the UK, and some of the circles I move in are a bit⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"hippy" (and thus not conservative/right wing at all) and some of those folks are absolutely lapping it up.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt is bewildering to see.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprojektfu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRight, it's infected the anti-vax and supplements community.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mHeyHoJoe[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOf course. These conspiracies depend on how schizotypical people are. People who are more “fantasy prone”⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare more likely to believe in magic, the supernatural, aliens and various other kinds of woo. It’s hardly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msurprising that hippie types should be included - what is the fundamental difference between believing in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcrystal healing and laylines and believing qanon? There’s no rational basis for either.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mAeolun[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s interesting to see how it swings the same way again. I hear the ‘masks are bad’ mantra from both the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmost right, and most left wing components of people I know.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrattray[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFascinating. What kind of stuff? The whole qanon deal?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchrchang523[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSomeone who was e.g. raised as a Christian, and then concluded that some of the stories they were told in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSunday School were lies, is likely to treat an appeal to religious authority as evidence [3magainst[0m a claim.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEven in domains where Christian groups have been effective in practice.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe same can be said about mainstream media or science.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn the short term, it's practically impossible to reach such people without identifying somewhere they're⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually right in their rejection of the mainstream narrative, and gaining their trust by recognizing that.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOnly with that trust do you have a shot of being listened to when you point out where they overcorrected⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst the mainstream narrative.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn the longer term, it would really help if some key mainstream narratives became more accurate. Without⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat, "getting out of the country" may actually become the best option for an increasing number of people.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmcphilip[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI do have some hope that the more extreme conspiracies pass in time and don’t permanently damage the psyche⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof those involved. Growing up in the Bible Belt during the Satanic Panic, I was legit afraid of being caught⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand sacrificed by satanists after a friend’s dad had us watch a movie about the “Pagan Invasion”. Satanists⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mout to kidnap kids for ritual sacrifice was a Big Fucking Deal that many people actually believed —- Paradise⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLost is a good documentary from that wave of hysteria.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI know of very few people that are terrified of satanists any longer.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpavlov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mQ seems to be a direct continuation of the satanist panic. Not only are the satanists real, but they control⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe government, rape children, drink their blood etc. etc.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkonjin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot much different to the democrats after the last election and Russia. Turns out everyone reaches for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconspiracies when they would rather not change their world view.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjszymborski[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is true that immediately after the election, there was a "Russia hacked the election" narrative that many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpartisans were latching on to to explain an unexpected Trump victory.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think the primary distinction is that democratic politicians and "thought-leaders" (or wtv term is better⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuited for influential partisans) quickly dismissed the fact that the actual democratic institutions were⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompromised (that is to say, the integrity of the vote was compromised, or that ballots didn't represent⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvote intention), but rather the claim quite quickly became that an influence campaign was supported by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mforeign powers, and the Trump campaign was happy to profit from it, if not colluding with said nation-state⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactors.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo, you're entirely correct that we have a tendency to seek out the narrative that best affirms our priors,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbut whether that tendency is legitimised depends on our institutions and the people we put in places of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mauthority.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mopportune[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree the Russia thing was way overplayed (even though Russia did run a propaganda campaign, which all⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mevidence does point to, actual American people were still voting for Trump). I don't think it really holds a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandle to the batshit craziness of QAnon though.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTulliusCicero[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's not a conspiracy theory, both in that it actually happened, and it's not even that unusual for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgovernments to mess with foreign elections if they feel they can get away with it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhughrlomas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm tired of this false statement being peddled.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe FBI, CIA, and republican-led Senate Committee on Intelligence have all produced extensive volumes of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdocumentation of Russian interference in the 2016 election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you're referring specifically to accusations of collusion between Trump and Russia, the core accusation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas that he and his administration were playing the role of the useful idiot, being plied and influenced by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRussia to the detriment of American interests.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe idea that he was intentionally working with Russia in a direct manner may has always been a misleading⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstraw man.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmakomk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe whole Russia thing went deep into conspiracy theory territory even before the 2016 election. The part⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat astounded me was the conspiracy theory about Trump being in secret communication with a Russian bank⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(and, for some reason, a US healthcare provider) via DNS. It was rejected by multiple outlets before a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpartisan rag ran with it, and made no sense on multiple levels - we were supposed to believe Trump got some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msubcountractors of subcontractors who he had no reason to trust to set up a communication channel so poor⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhe'd need another, better communication channel just to agree what the messages meant, giving them the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mability to blow the whole scheme and tying those communications to himself for no reason in the process, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey somehow went along with it and kept their mouths shut, and that this made more sense than email⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mservers doing DNS lookups as the result of having received ordinary marketing emails for Trump hotels like⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou'd pretty much expect them to do.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd yet, this didn't stop the Clinton campaign demanding the FBI investigate it from her official Twitter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccount, and that demand going viral. Not only that, when the New York Times pushed back against this⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnuttery in the weakest way possible by reporting that the FBI had looked at the claims and concluded all the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mevidence pointed to it being the result of ordinary junk emails, their reader's editor pushed back, there⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwas a boycott, and they eventually admitted it was a mistake and they wouldn't do it again. People are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobably still holding this against the New York Times even now, and the theory got resurrected later by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpublications which should know better.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m23B1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn a sea of readily-available information with no way to qualify it, people gravitate towards concepts they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcan understand and that fit within their ideological framework.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf we're in the Information Age, why is information literacy not as important as literacy itself?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTulliusCicero[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah, it's really weird.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy dad is an old guard conservative, and he's flabbergasted at the embrace of Trump and all these conspiracy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheories and people going, "MY FREEEEDOM!!" instead of wearing a mask.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbriga[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSeems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mscientific literacy and about media bias. Seems more important ever to teach kids that they shouldn't believe⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meverything the see at face value. Easier said than done I suppose⁣
  ⁣
    [1mardy42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSeems like a lot of these problems stem from a failing education system. Teach kids critical thinking and[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mscientific literacy and media bias. Seems more important ever to teach kids that they shouldn't believe[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3meverything the see at face value. Easier said than done I suppose[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo education is perfect. Even if those things are taught (which I'm pretty sure they are already at some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlevel), there will still be loads of people that:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1) didn't pay attention in school, or didn't absorb the lessons;⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m2) don't have the ability to apply the lessons;⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3) forgot the lessons (esp. if they previously spent a lot of time in a sane media environment where the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlessons were less necessary);⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m4) found it too much trouble to apply the lessons consistently, and let their guard down;⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m5) found the emotional content of the conspiracy was just too tempting; or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m6) encountered a evolved conspiracy theory that found a way around their (years old) lessons.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfountainofage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm very inclined to believe, but I personally know a couple of medical doctors who are 100% into the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheories. And I imagine lots of other people also know well-educated individuals with the same beliefs.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't know if education is enough. People seem to decide at some point what they believe, and then back⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mall evidence into either it supports their beliefs, or the evidence is fake.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgammarator[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere’s a provocative argument that “media literacy” won’t help:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mpoints.datasociety.net/you-think-you-want-media-lite…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mianmobbs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExactly this - but this is why conservatives routinely defund education.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mAustin_Conlon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt was baffling listening to an SF tech worker in 2016 try to convince me Pizzagate was real.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnewfriend[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm sure there's no end to the things you find baffling.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustin66[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA well intentioned question: in your view, were the various conspiracy theories about Barack Obama that went⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvariously unopposed, weakly opposed, or openly embraced by mainstream conservatives depending on who you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0masked, "normal" conspiracies or crazy conspiracies?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPeople who believe Obama was born in Kenya, who believe George Soros funds every leftist cause on the planet,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mor… you know the stuff… are believing things that are both nutty and really obviously false. Is that stuff⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreally any less nutty than the QAnon stuff?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI guess I feel like that maximum level of craziness isn't really new.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDesiLurker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy view is this is because at its core human brain has evolved to not reject reality however weird it may be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(bear with me), The problem is that when 'facts' are presented in form of live media (audio, video) the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchances of it being interpreted as 'reality' by our adaptive brain as reality is high.. because you just saw⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m& heard it, there in very little space there to inject intellectual discretion there, and even if you do you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstill have to have a special case for 'that reality'.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe best counter to fake news IMO is to not consume any news in a narrated form unless its from a really⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtrusted source & I mean invite-home-and-fireside-chat trusted. I prefer reading news to this. the other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbenefit is that you can read at your own pace instead of the narrators pace so you have better chance of not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmissing crucial detail. Second is free is bad, my take away after last election cycle was we need to pay for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe news. I got NYT & wapo sub and have not cancelled it since. Just these two things, paying for the news⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand reading it helps me keep this conspiracy BS at bay.⁣
  ⁣
   [1manalog31[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think we now have a propaganda apparatus that folks in the past could not even have dreamt of. I fear that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthis will take us to a very dark place.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnetsharc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's not as if other countries are lands of gold and honey… I live in Europe, and there are also⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0manti-lockdown Covid-skeptics around here screaming "The goverment has turned authoritarian and is slowly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mturning us into sheep!" (luckily they're in the minority). And surely they are or will be vaccine-skeptics.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt seems truth has become subjective. I tried to talk to a QAnon-spouting girl and posted links to Snopes or⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Guardian. She said, "Well, MSM is owned by the Rottschilds so you can't rely on them to tell the truth.".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI never asked where she read this, but she probably would've replied she figured this out by reading some⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrandom Wordpress blog or watching some nutter on YouTube.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI thought "So, you believe those sources and think my sources are lying?!?". But wait, from her point of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mview, this sentence is also true! One could try asking them to check the reputation of their sources or dig⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeeper, but it seems this is an exercise in futility. When there are actual doctors arguing against Covid⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrestrictions or publishing flawed studies on hydroxychloroquine, how do we trust who is reputable? (I'm⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtalking about Didier Raoult, who now also has conspiracy theorists championing him as someone the French⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgovernment "ousted" because he wasn't towing the party line).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThen again, there are utterly stupid conspiracy theories like the Wayfair one:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.bbc.com/news/world-53416247[0m ; the idea that secret cabals would use publicly accessible online shops to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtraffic children is laughable, but the people who believe this sort of thing doesn't get that the real human⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtraffickers (is a sad fact that they're out there) probably knows how to communicate in secret.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtomp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"The goverment has turned authoritarian and is slowly turning us into sheep!"[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou don't need to be "covid-skeptic" to say that, I say the same thing simply because I'm strongly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlibertarian. It also highly depends on the value system, e.g. if you're young and healthy you might think⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe marginally increased chance of complications because of this virus isn't worth delaying your life for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmonths or years.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlso, Snopes and the Guardian (along with most other MSM and fact-checking sites) have pushed enough biases,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfalsehoods and conspiracy theories to be completely untrustworthy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSolvitieg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the size of these groups are greatly exaggerated by social media.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mConspiracy theorists have always existed and are practically harmless.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSure there are incidents that occur, but likewise, 1000 people a month die from falling down the stairs. It's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjust not a problem in the grand scheme of things.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mopportune[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are members of the US House of Representatives which believe in the QAnon conspiracy theory now⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(Marjorie Taylor Greene). Sure it's just one representative among hundreds, but that shows it's not a deal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbreaker and might even have widespread popular support.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbelorn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI see the conspiracy theories as substitutes for more concrete reasons why people feel so divided and under⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mattack. Recalling back to research done on conflicts between groups, the most strongest way tensions and fear⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare created is when people displays different symbols representing difference in values, unclear and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0muncertain definitions of identities and groups, and large difference in social and economic status being⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhighly visible and displayed. Get people afraid with a strong dose of us vs them and people will latch onto⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0many theory that will explain that emotional state regardless if some are true and some are false.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe best way to meet in the middle would be to do the opposite to those triggers and then talk to them.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSoSoRoCoCo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHow do you even begin to "meet in the middle" or have reasonable conversations with people who believe in[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthat stuff?[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is the Overton Window on steroids. I've struggled to put aside my partisanship in discussions with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdifferent opinions, I have trouble even when the other person is being rational and informed, but to go⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst flat-out-batshit-insanity?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow did that happen? Did we just assume people always want to be smarter, and that was wrong?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchrismcb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhere would you go? Conspiracy theories aren't unique to the us.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mopportune[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI was thinking Switzerland. Other European countries are also enticing, and I'm actually completely fine⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith the higher taxes, but less fine with the substantially lower wages for software engineering.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am sure there are conspiracy theories everywhere but it feels like even some of the crazier ones are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecoming mainstream in the US. I worry that staying here too long is playing chicken against the possibility⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof a crazy+competent person taking advantage of the conspiracy theories in ways Trump couldn't fully do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheresie-dabord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe mania that these wild fabrications create in the US is… particular.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople are credulous of falsehood and don't seem able to apply critical thinking. Maybe these collective⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdelusions help the deluded groups in some way… or serve the needs of a power structure.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgrandridge[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRussiagate you dumb mf?⁣
  ⁣
   [1marminiusreturns[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou can have the bravery to understand that there are nuggets of truth in even what you may consider the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcrazier conspiracy theories, and then to follow up with researching and understanding psychological⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moperations both the history and current extent therefor (of what we know), so that you can come to the table⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mboth with a) uncomfortable to you facts, and b) knowledge of how those psyops are used on the populace (which⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min particular gives one a better understanding/empathy with those who buy into xyz).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media told everyone not in the conspiracy realm about how pizzagate was false, and it likely is, but only⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto an extent. But wait, I can feel the recoil already, just a moment. For those of us in the conspiracy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrealm, who know about the real use of children for blackmail operations mostly by intelligence agencies but⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malso by organized crime, pizzagate suddenly becomes much more plausible (note I didn't say real). It's not a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpopular position because most people simply [3mdon't want to know how dark the world really is[0m. The framing of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEpstein as some one off independent abuser is actually part of the coverup of just one middle manager in one⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof said blackmail rings. He ran girls, others run boys. Top level politicians and businessmen are targets for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mleverage. If you balk at even this assertion just because of the "crazy by association" to pizzagate, take⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe time to lookup: The Dutroux Affair, aka Belgiums X-Files, The Franklin Scandal, the Finders Scandal, Roy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCohn (Trumps mentor)… as just a start. Also note: wikipedia will not provide good information on these kinds⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof topics. If one were to look at the entry for the Franklin Scandal without digging further, one would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprobably walk away thinking it was a hoax, which isn't the truth at all.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOn the topic of psyops, one of the most used techniques is called the "limited hangout". I usually use the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mflat earth conspiracy as an example of this. Of course it is quite assinine, and should generally just be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mignored as such, an analysis will show that those who talk about it (I would posit are often not organic),⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malso talk about much more legitimate conspiracy theories. The intent is to make the more legitimate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconspiracy theories [3mdiscredited as crazy by association[0m. Qanon is such an operation. It took what could have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbeen a movement against the blackmail networks that have infiltrated and compromised huge amounts of business⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand politicians [3mon both sides of the isle[0m, and turned it into a partisan, quasi-religious outlet that goes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnowhere, but always promises something is about to happen (keeping the partipants hopeful and distracted from⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmore meaningful action) with the added side-bonus of being one of the best honeypots for metadata on those⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtypes in existence.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Bill Gates topic is another good example. It's easy to kneejerk dismiss those concerns as they sound⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mquite outlandish… but again, there is at least a modicum of truth, or rather, a handful of reasons people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mshould be much more skeptical of the intentions of Bill Gates on the topic. For example, Bill Gates had quite⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man extensive relationship with Jeffrey Epstein, something a cursory search on the topic from mainstream⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msources will give nothing more than a passing mention. He had a relatively sordid relationship with the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpharma industry in India, one worth digging into. On the "microchip" thing, another great example. Gate's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrelated foundations and companies have openly talked about the quantum dot system, which is just readable⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmarkers to identify who has had a particular vaccine, and have actively partnered with the pentagon and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdarpa, and the ID2020 program is being tested on newborns in Bangladesh and homelss people in Austin, TX⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0malready. Those kinds of assocation alone are enough to at least empathize and understand where those who then⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtake that and buy into the microchips story are coming from. So while it's untrue that the Gate's linked⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprograms intend to put microchips in, the talk of digital certificates linked to biometrics such as quantum⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdot scare people, and then combine that with the fact that DARPA and the pentagon [3mhave been investigating[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3msuch microchips[0m, along with a history of medically experimenting on humans without consent, it's easy to see⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe jump to conclusions being made.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGiven the huge amount of propaganda being heaped on the American public from all sides then, I think you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mshould reconsider judging so harshly those who have fallen victim to that propaganda, and instead should⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfocus on the purveyors and originators of that propaganda. To be frank, I also find this disproportionate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjudging of people in the current day to be very unprincipled also. We can invade countries illegally, murder⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhundreds of thousands of people abroad… and crickets… but talk about how the same engine that did that abroad⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis now turning it's eye of sauron back towards us, inward, and you must be a batshit crazy conspiracy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheorist. To just now be losing faith in America/it's people is myopic at best. Try to judge a bit less, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexercise a bit more empathy and even sympathy for those who have fallen for the untrue (which is literally⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mall of us, to some degree), and understand the outlandish might not be as unplausible as you might think, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myou will be on a better path to engaging genuinely with such people.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=r-GppBpUeYg[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mneverartful[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDon't forget that Hillary Clinton complained about 'vast right-wing conspiracies' publicly on multiple⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moccasions. The talk of conspiracies is not unique to one side.⁣
  ⁣
   [1maddflip[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat’s hilarious with your position is that your “side”, the liberals, is perceived to be immune the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconspiracy theories. For example, like how QAnon is widely believed throughout the conservative community.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/03/30/qanons-cons…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcycomanic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mActually that study just shows that people have not heard about the term Qanon. I actually believe that left⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleaning voters are more familiar with the term. I suspect it hardly gets mentioned on fox news for example.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe more interesting thing would have been to ask about some of the theories from Qanon and to scale them⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlikely to unlikely similar to the other questions.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe second difference between Qanon and some of the previous conspiracy theories (on both sides) is that we⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave several republicans quite openly supporting some of those theories, and even the president retweeting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mqanon theories. That's why people are saying it seems to becoming mainstream.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwoah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOP is talking about their own family⁣
  ⁣
    [1mopportune[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am not conservative.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mlibraryatnight[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI don't think I realized just how much this was wearing on me. I know there's steps to go before this is
  [0mirrefutable, but the weight lifted is palpable and I didn't really think it would be given how many troubles
  [0mwe still face. I sincerely hope this is a step towards a healthier country. And for those that did not like
  [0mTrump, but weren't thrilled with Biden, I hope Biden is a stepping stone towards even better candidates.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgbil[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI'd like to open a slightly different topic here which stems though from the elections of the past 20 years.
  [0mWouldn't be a big take away now the reform of the Elector College and the shift to a direct vote from the
  [0mpeople ?
  [0m
  [0mAs a nonUS citizen from a country in which the head of state is being elected directly from the people, I find
  [0mit very unsettling that there have been cases in which the president in US elections was running behind in
  [0mpopular votes and by a big amount of votes, which almost happened here. I've tried to research it a bit but I
  [0mcouldn't still understand why especially since the House and Senate members are elected by popular vote
  [0malready
  [0m
  [0mI'd appreciate any insights here

                                                   [1m▶ 11 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 11 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgreggyb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Constitution of the United States is a document written to preserve co-equal sovereignty of a bunch of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstates that wanted to be closer to nations than provinces, while avoiding the then-very-apparent risk of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcentralized absolute governing authority.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe framers of the Constitution didn't get everything right, but it's very useful to keep that perspective in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmind when trying to understand the form of the US government.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you take the perspective of states as sovereign, with federation between them, then the Electoral College⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstarts to make a lot more sense. The goal was to preserve the power of a [3mstate[0m in the federal government, as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmuch as to represent the collection of people from all states - both concepts were critical. The idea is that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpeople from the nation deserve representation [3mand[0m that each state (and the people from that state as a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msub-population) deserve representation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf federation of states is a core concept of the subdivision of governing responsibility, then it makes sense⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto build a system that ensures each state has meaningful weight in the governance of that federation.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNone of this is an argument for or against the Electoral College, nor should it be interpreted as arguing for⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe correctness/effectiveness/righteousness/morality of the institution. It is simply an attempt to share⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mperspective to help understand why the system is the way it is.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs originally defined, the House of Representatives was the only piece of the federal government intended to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdirectly represent the people of the nation. Senators were originally chosen by state legislatures. The⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSenate was intended to represent the states, not the people directly.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Electoral College was an intermediary to represent both the states and the people - as a compromise, it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhas many failings that seem obvious today. There is no federal mandate as to how a state's electors choose to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcast their votes. Each state is responsible for regulating its own voting - this includes how people vote⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand how electors are chosen and how those electors vote. It is mere happenstance that the majority of states⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave a winner-takes-all allotment strategy for their electors. Maine and Nebraska notably assign their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melectors proportionally.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt is also interesting to note that the tie-breaking mechanism for an Electoral College tie devolves to the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHouse, not with one vote per representative, but with one vote per state. This is another example of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconcept that [3mstates[0m are a concept deserving of representation.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mceilingcorner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe US is not and was never supposed to be a popular vote democracy. The founding fathers recognized the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdangers of populism and subsequently made sure that the government is a republic.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGwypaas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMichael Barbaro: [3mSo this winner-take-all system, this is not something envisioned by the framers. It seems[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mlike it kind of came to us in a pretty haphazard way.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJesse Wegman: [3mRight. People like to imagine that the system that we used today was handed down to us from[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mthe framers. And in fact, the framers didn’t talk at all about the winner-take-all rule. It didn’t come up[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mat the convention. And when they saw it start to be adopted in the states in the early 1800s, they were[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mhorrified. James Madison, the man we think of as the father of the Constitution, tried to pass a[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mconstitutional amendment prohibiting the use of winner-take-all rule because he saw how corrosive it was to[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3merase up to half of voters in the state.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2020/10/22/podcasts/the-daily/electo…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkrapp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe founding fathers recognized the dangers of populism and subsequently made sure that the government is[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3ma republic.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah, umm… about that…⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnostromo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's similar to the European Parliament, in that small member states have a small advantage over populous⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmember states.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe whole point is to prevent Germany and France (or New York and California) from dominating everything.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msillysaurusx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNah. A popular vote is like two wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSystem's working as intended.⁣
  ⁣
    [1moa335[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour metaphor cuts both ways. Electoral college is like 3 lambs and 2 wolves voting for what's for dinner.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLambs live in one state and wolves live in two states. Wolves win even though they are numerically the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mminority.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYour metaphor simply exposes a risk of any sort of majority rules, it's not specific to popular vote⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msystems.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdingaling[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mSystem's working as intended.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe System didn't anticipate the maturation of the political landscape into a steady-state of two enormously⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwealthy parties that exclude any disrupters, and thereby between them decide what's selectable for dinner⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrom a menu of two choices. Do you want that lamb with mint sauce or without?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNot once on electoral coverage did I see votes for independent or third-party candidates listed.⁣
  ⁣
   [1miaw[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe end of this video[[37m0[0m] explains some of the historic context:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=OUS9mM8Xbbw[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo not be mistaken, popular vote was one of the options considered at the beginning of the USA. It was not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdue to the potential for fraud. So even today, the electoral college serves as a safeguard when there is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreason to believe the popular vote has been tainted. The current media narrative is there is no hard⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mevidence, but what other evidence other than video, sworn affidavits is required? Do not be too quick to call⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mit for Biden, not withstanding the popular vote, this probably will drag on until December despite the media⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mattempts to end it quickly.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoshuamorton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe electoral college had nothing to do with fraud. It was a check against a misinformed populace, or a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandidate that died. Both of those things have been made irrelevant by faithless elector laws. It now serves⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbasically only as a bias towards republicans, as the founders of this country chose to value land over⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1margella[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt'd be nice to discuss whether the benford's law analysis can be reasonably applied to election returns, but
  [0many mention of it is flagged by the thought police.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mstdbrouw[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs it flagged? Mostly, I think people just don't care that much because Benford's law is a curious pattern⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat applies to some kinds of numbers some of the time, so it's interesting as a first diagnostic of fraud,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbut without an argument of why it applies to this particular kind of data, and without further investigation⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof what might be causing the irregularity, it's not a smoking gun by any means.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSee also [34mwww.eipartnership.net/rapid-response/what-the-electi…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1margella[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThanks for the link.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere was a good post here with a link to all of the meme'ing trump claims of statistical anomalies⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(benford's law, turnout numbers, president vs senate party differences, etc.). Was going to reply to it but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mupon submitting it was gone / flagged.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mWarOnPrivacy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI'm so glad it's stinking over. I might even read non-tech news again.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1maaronharsh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe Trump presidency put a spotlight on the damage that can be done by a combination of:
  [0m
  [0m- Concerted attempts by press and others to create a filter bubbles
  [0m
  [0m- An electorate that's unwilling to look outside their preferred bubbles
  [0m
  [0mThose problems don't go away with a new president. What's the solution? How do we prevent the next election
  [0mcycle from being worse?

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRevising our electoral system to change the incentives for political parties and politicians would be an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mapproach. Winner-take-all on a state by state basis with single-party primaries produce candidates who are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfar from the median voter and then campaign to drum up support among their party base. Universal primary⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystems encourage candidates with broader appeal outside of their party to end up as the party nominee, who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthen have a much easier time running a general election campaign on appealing to opposition party voters⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrather than being forced by the positions they took in their primary to campaign only to boost turnout among⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheir existing base.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mthrowawayx7[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSomething that should be addressed as soon as possible is reducing the capacity of foreign actors to influence
  [0mpolitics through organized trolling.
  [0m
  [0mThere has been a lot of gaslighting around this issue, but the fact is that the United States has been
  [0mprotected by two vast oceans for its entire history, but it opened a conduit into its heartland for foreign
  [0mmischief-makers through Facebook and Twitter. Whether it helped Trump or not in 2016 (frankly, I think it
  [0mprobably did but it's exhausting to debate this so I won't) it does represent a gaping hole in America's
  [0mdefenses.
  [0m
  [0mUntil this election, there seemed to be a clear pattern (in the English speaking world anyway) that allowed
  [0mone to reliably predict the winner of an election by seeing which side the trolls supported.
  [0m
  [0mThere are no First Amendment protections for Russian/Iranian/Macedonian click or troll farms. Detecting VPNs
  [0mand other attempts to conceal traffic is not an insurmountable technical challenge, yet it isn't done
  [0mconsistently.
  [0m
  [0mThe seductive "Arab Spring" approach to letting free speech run rampant on social media turned out to be a
  [0mmirage. Not only was the Arab Spring reversed in Egypt, based on my discussions with Egyptians, Facebook was
  [0mturned into a tool of repression after the counter-revolution took hold.
  [0m
  [0m(Yes, the irony of posting this from a throwaway account doesn't escape me, but there's a difference between
  [0mclearly anonymous speech, and speech that misrepresents its source).
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mngcc_hk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a Hongkonger I am more worry about a) the problem of USA infrastructures due to the split. The nearly 50%
  [0mvote for trump this time … and b) the external resolve and attention paid to Asia especially Taiwan. I did
  [0mnote it is Clinton that sent in 2 aircraft carriers for Taiwan last time, which unlike hk is not yet that much
  [0ma lost case.
  [0m
  [0mFor Hong Kong, I do not have much hope but given it is not much of hope to begin with, fight on beyond the
  [0mlast stand.
  [0m
  [0mBest wish for USA and Taiwan, whilst I can still send message.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtinus_hn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI wonder what Biden is going to do about the coronavirus. Trumps denials don’t work but the things people
  [0mexpect Biden to do (mask mandates etc.) aren’t a magical solution either.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjpgvm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWell not now that it's progressed too far.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFull lockdown and masks would have worked just as well in America as it worked here in Asia if it was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0menforced quickly and with high adherence to the rules.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(worth mentioning everyone is -still- wearing masks here in Thailand every day and have been since early⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMarch)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIronically a virus that began in Asia is now a Western problem because of inaction and/or lack of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdecisiveness.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtinus_hn[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhatever the merit of the early masks and lockdowns strategy, the options Biden has do not include them,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat ship has sailed. He’ll have to make do with the options he does have.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMask mandate is not a magical solution, however it will significantly reduce the spread.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBasically the only option we have is to reduce the spread of the virus without really massively hurting the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meconomy. At same time give scientists and labs everything they need to create a working vaccine verified by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFDA rigorous quality process.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA vaccine that kills even more people due to side effects and not vetted thoroughly is even a worse solution.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden can’t close businesses and go on full lockdown. Everyone can wear masks in public and still go to work.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is not a huge ask. There are many pragmatic options.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKye[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe difference between videos of people celebrating because they thought Trump won and videos of people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcelebrating because Biden won were stark. I'll say which side had near complete mask compliance for anyone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mviewing this in the future once context collapses: the Biden crowds.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI wonder if epidemiologists can extract any useful information on mask efficacy from infection rates in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthese places.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmarkus_zhang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMy perception is whoever think that since Trump is gone we can wipe the plate clean and go back to the good
  [0mold way, is wrong.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjustinzollars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBiden will be the First Democrat since Grover Cleveland to take office without a Democratic Senate. The House
  [0mmajority is smaller. So his mandate is effectively toast. Another interesting historical fact. America has
  [0mnever elected 4 consecutive 2 term presidents. If Trump would have been elected it would have been the first
  [0mtime in US history that this has happened. This election wasn't a blue wave by any means, Trump underperformed
  [0mHouse Republicans in many swing states implying this was more of a personal decision rather than political.
  [0m
  [0mWhat do I see changing? Not much:
  [0m
  [0m[2m  - foreign policy: policy changes with Syria and Iran[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - China: An end to tariffs[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - local changes: No more federal opposition to safe injection sites in San Francisco[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - federal taxes could still go up, the Senate has two liberal Republicans who could deliver tax increases to Joe[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - expanded federal regulations that do not require changes to the law[0m
  [0m
  [0mWhat will likely not happen:
  [0m
  [0m[2m  - PR and DC becoming states is no longer plausible[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - packing the Supreme Court is no longer plausible[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - a green new deal or expansions to entitlements are no longer plausible[0m
  [0m[2m[0m
  [0m[2m  - state bailouts are now in question, which could force major structural reforms[0m

                                                   [1m▶ 8 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 8 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mzamadatix[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI wouldn't rule the GA senator red absolutely until the runoff but it does seem the more likely result to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mguess at the moment (IMO). Remember if the Senate is even the VP acts as tiebreaker.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHere is a useful chart for anyone wanting to look at historical senate share⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mupload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/72/Combined…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOn the "change" side I'd throw in I'm interested to see how the FCC commissioners change over the next couple⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof years and what impact that has on things.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOn the "not likely to happen" I never understood how packing the supreme court was supposed to be possible in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe first place unless members of the court started dropping like flies all of the sudden.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresponding to your question on the court, the threat was an expansion of the number of justices on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcourt.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mummonk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"America has never elected 4 consecutive 2 term presidents."⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis seems like one of those facts that is so arbitrary as to be basically statistical noise. How many times⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave we had three consecutive 2 term presidents anyway (i.e. an opportunity for the 4th president to be a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconsecutive 2 term president)?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI thought it was a cool fact.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtsimionescu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're forgetting by far the most important item: some efforts to combat climate change will happen. This⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msingle issue should have been enough to mark Biden as preferable to Trump, even if everything else had been⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworse.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is completely true. We will have more regulation. This list is not exhaustive and is my personal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopinion on the way I see things changing. I'll attempt to modify⁣
  ⁣
   [1mreedwolf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat depends on the Georgia runoffs in January. If the Dems win those two seats, then along with Harris's tie⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbreaking vote they would have a senate majority.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjustinzollars[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you have some information the runoff? I wasn't aware about that.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmedium_burrito[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIn an ideal world, I think we should do either: A) Random selection a la the Venetian Doge (political leader,
  [0mnot meme-canine). The house should definitely be random selection- preferably all citizens over 18 and under
  [0msay 70 filing a tax return. B) Allow indefinite run-offs with None-of-the-above options. Basically, if
  [0mNone-of-the-above wins, the election is redone but nobody on the ballot is allowed to run for the run-off.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcblconfederate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Doge wasn't selected randomly, but via a series of randomized election rounds in order to ensure that no⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcoordination was possible. Wiki has a fun description:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThirty members of the Great Council, chosen by lot, were reduced by lot to nine; the nine chose forty and[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe forty were reduced by lot to twelve, who chose twenty-five. The twenty-five were reduced by lot to[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mnine, and the nine elected forty-five. These forty-five were once more reduced by lot to eleven, and the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3meleven finally chose the forty-one who elected the doge.[19] Election required at least twenty-five votes[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mout of forty-one, nine votes out of eleven or twelve, or seven votes out of nine electors.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAncient Athens appointed most offices by lot, they even had a democracy machine:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kleroterion[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjimnotgym[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mPlease permit me a ramble, there are too many points to fit in a hn box and I'm typing on a phone.
  [0m
  [0mI'm sure our stateside friends would be happy to acknowledge that US politics has a major effect on the whole
  [0mworld. I have had it pointed out to me before, however, that the USA can vote in whomever they please, and it
  [0mis none of our business.
  [0m
  [0mBut American companies sell us our books and films (understatement), take cuts of our credit card payments,
  [0mmake us coffee, organize our taxis. All of this seems to be with preferential tax treatment. All of these
  [0mthings could be done without the US, but the US is our partner in peace, so it is tolerated.
  [0m
  [0mAnd here is the rub, this works so long as the USA is a legitimate ally.
  [0m
  [0mAnd then came Trump, telling us that we don't spend enough on Nato (with US defence companies) and threatening
  [0mour peace. I believe this has lead to a situation where the US is seen less as a partner and more as a bully,
  [0ma colonial overlord demanding tribute. I think the next 20 years will see a shift in this kind of trade to the
  [0mEU and to the East.
  [0m
  [0mThe USA can be insular if it wants, but it can't do so and expect everything to be the same as it has been for
  [0mthe last 50 years. An insular US is a declining US. Your new President has a terrific amount of work to do to
  [0mundo this damage…

                                                   [1m▶ 21 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 21 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1m_iyig[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnd then came Trump, telling us that we don't spend enough on Nato[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump said it loudly and in plain terms, but this is a popular bipartisan view in the US. It is a fact that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmany wealthy NATO members do not meet the defense spending commitments that membership entails. Obama⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpressured NATO members to meet their obligations, and Biden will likely do so as well.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.politico.com/story/2016/11/obama-nato-pay-fair-s…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdodobirdlord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrue, but on a deeper level NATO most of all serves US interests, and Joe Biden will grumble but happily⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcontinue to subsidize the defense of member nations.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThese days NATO is most clearly recognized as a list of countries that the USA as global military hegemon is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mready to go to war to defend, and this is hugely beneficial to a country that wants to be a global military⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhegemon. Wars are expensive and ideally you don’t want to fight any. The existence of an organization like⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNATO means that (a) none of the member nations are going to fight each other, (b) none of the member nations⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare going to try to rival the military hegemon, (c) nobody outside of the organization is going to start a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwar with any of the members. For a military hegemon whose main interest is ensuring global peace so that it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan continue to reap the rewards of a global economic system that it is also hegemon over, getting to mark⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moff a large chunk of the developed world as “no wars here” is well worth paying for. In a very, very loose⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msense it’s sorta like an olden-days imperial power with tributaries, but the “tribute” is realized in the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mform of the fact that the US government’s position as military and economic hegemon means that it can⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmanufacture dollars for free and other countries will trade goods and services for them.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOn top of that, concentrating the defense spending of the alliance within the US is good for the US economy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand critically important for maintaining the R&D efforts that the US military relies on to maintain a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtechnological edge over potential rivals outside of the alliance.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnullc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think one factor in this election is that the parties splits are misaligned with issues that people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactually care about.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo for example: Trump and Sanders (and Tulsi and a number of more fringey candidates) are generally opposed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto international intervention.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mImmigration considerations are another one (in particular, dem immigration platform is at odds with trade⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munion preferences but aligned with large corporate interests).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere are big, relevant, issues that voters care a lot about that don't conform to the party lines.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mzapnuk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump still lied about it.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m1. The 2% target is a non-binding guideline. 2. Germany has (for some time) a plan in place to increase the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdefense budget to meet the 2% target. It will increase on a year-by-year basis. 3. Germany spends quite a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlot on foreign aid, which 'could' be understood as a risk preventing defense spending.⁣
  ⁣
    [1malkonaut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is a silent understanding (silent, because it isn't raised) that the US takes a larger part of NATO⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspending because it's politically feasible to do so there, and because protecting Europe is to protect US⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minterests as well.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn some places, spending 2% GDP on defense (meaning cutting back on something else) would be political⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuicide. So that government is kicked out and it remains 1.2% or something. What happens then? Nato kicks⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mout the member state? That hardly helps any more than a member paying 1.2% and promising to help with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mArticle V!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mendymi0n[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile I don‘t disagree about the split between countries being off, I always questioned the notion of other⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcountries needing to spend more. Why shouldn‘t we all spend less instead?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCompared to almost any non-superpower status nation, the US Defense budget is strictly insane.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf they had just shifted a third of that budget towards education under early Obama, I doubt Trump could⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mever have come this far.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjohndevor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBut American companies sell us our books and films (understatement), take cuts of our credit card payments,[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mmake us coffee, organize our taxis. All of this seems to be with preferential tax treatment. All of these[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthings could be done without the US, but the US is our partner in peace, so it is tolerated.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAre you implying that America is exporting more than it imports from the EU? The US actually has a trade⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeficit with Europe.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c0003.html[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mDoreenMichele[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy feeling is that the bigger issue with things like movies and books is not money (trade) but mind share.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US tends to have more influence elsewhere on how people think than other countries have here.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm American and I find it disturbing the degree to which our films, TV shows and other major media are done⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmostly in California or New York. Those are much more urbanized places than most of the US.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt took me a long time to comprehend why I felt like there was something "wrong" with my life. I consume a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlot less popular media (books, magazines, movies, etc) than I used to and my life makes a lot more sense to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mme than it used to.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI found it personally problematic to be more or less brainwashed with ideas about what life was supposed to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe like that in no way matched my actual life. It took me a long time to conclude that this is not some⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdefect in me. This is a situation where our popular imagery doesn't really match reality for the majority of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmericans.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat disconnect is bound to be even larger and more problematic for other countries/cultures. I think it is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlegitimate to be concerned about things like that under the best of circumstances and downright suspicious⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhen the evidence suggests it's not even being done in good faith, so it's not likely some sort of [3minnocent[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproblem. At that point you have to start being genuinely concerned that you are being intentionally⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmanipulated with malice aforethought.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msystemvoltage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoes that include software services?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEdit: Just checked the source. It is [3mgoods[0m only. And does not include services, software or not. So, this is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msort of a meaningless argument for an economy that is shifting towards services from hard goods.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mguerrilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThta is not what they were implying. They were refering to power imbalances, not trade by itself.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mvermilingua[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhen I was complaining to a friend that our media (Australia) spends more time on US politics than our own,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey showed me a map of extraterritorial US military bases.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think the comparison to a colonial overlord is more than apt.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjacquesm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd when there is a questionable war to be fought they are the first to bang the drums and demand their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m'partners' join in a coalition. 'Or else…'.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcrocodiletears[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'll welcome a divorce from Europe. The EU should flourish into the society it wants to be, and be free to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdevelop its internal market as it sees fit.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAn insular US, engaging primarily its geographic neighbours, and countries in the Americas will be better⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mable to focus inward, and work to rectify the internal problems that see it on a path of decline already,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhile mantaining its sovereignty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs much of a fantasy as it might be, I do hope Biden will continue the Trajectory of bilateral relations, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mminimal alliances that Trump's administration has so clumsily set us on.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjimnotgym[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat is an incredible view to me. The influence of American culture on Europe is significant. The sales of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUS services took Europe are colossal. Suggesting that the US give that up to win a pissing contest about who⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas the most defence expenditure sounds rather ignorant.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtravisoneill1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNATO is supposed to be an alliance, not a protection agreement. And what is the point of an alliance if your⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountry doesn't have a worthwhile army? Why can't you be asked to hold up your end? Asking you to hold up⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myour end is not "demanding tribute."⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjimnotgym[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy country does have a worthwhile army and an independent nuclear deterrent. I am dismayed that you can⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimagine that the European Nato members can't field significant forces, that would be very insular thinking.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSure they don't have stealth bombers and super-carriers…⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy country has also supported the United States in many of its foreign campaigns as an ally supplying⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmanpower and materiel to Afghanistan and several gulf wars for instance.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe sub-text is that my country spends a great deal of it's 2% on American weapons, which is not true of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome of our Nato neighbour's. When I hear the USA demanding more this is what I hear, 'spend more on US made⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0marms' not 'build a better army'. That is why I call it tribute.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcblconfederate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's was not a secret that NATO's enormous expansion was dubious for the US or that european countries do not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcontribute nearly enough. trump 's opinion was just a rude way to say what everyone knew. Even Mitterand⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwondered what was the reason for NATO after the cold war ended.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAn insular US is a declining US[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf EU did that, it would be an empty threat. The US is already realigning towards the ascending markets in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAsia rather the aging Europe. There seems also to be very little interest from Europeans to act together as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man alliance. Instead they are watching passively as a NATO member (Turkey) is actively threatening allies and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mother NATO members (cyprus, greece, france)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjimnotgym[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's was not a secret that NATO's enormous expansion was dubious for the US or that european countries do[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mnot contribute nearly enough.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think it would be useful for you to flesh out those two points. 'It's not a secret..' sounds like a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrumpist soundbite, a mechanism to try to pass off a personal opinion as fact or at least as established⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsensus. There are some much more eloquent people than me in this thread who have argued the exact⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposite of what you have stated, that Nato is a net benefit to the US. Would you mind fleshing out your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcounter-argument further please⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpvtmert[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a Turkish person I can say that even if it may look like we've some military power, most of qualified⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople prisoned after 2016 coup attempt.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is like a person speaks louder to hide their ignorance. That is what Turkey is doing right now.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustatdotin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthis works so long as the USA is a legitimate ally.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mso, never.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mnogglet[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMy concern is the mass talk of voter fraud shows how distrustful a great deal of Americans are to their own
  [0mdemocratic system. I'm ok with placating the fears people have of election fraud and investigating, given the
  [0mstudies done, it's quite certain voter fraud is a prime example of misinformation.
  [0m
  [0m2016-2020 has been a time of seeing just how dangerous misinformation is in the world of mass social media.
  [0mAll it takes is the spreading of false rumors through various means of the internet and social media for
  [0mpeople to lose their minds and question their own democracy. I think both social media, advertising agencies,
  [0mand the modern media is largely responsible for this. Also, us in the tech industry, who have over these last
  [0m4 years began to see the truly ugly side of what we're building. In our constant need to hit KPIs, drive up
  [0mSEO rank, drive virility, we've slowly fed a monster that is now making itself known, and disrupting the very
  [0mfabric of democracy.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msanguy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCanadian who has been living in the US for 5 years. Perm resident but not naturalized. Arrived a year and a
  [0mbit before Trump 2016 win.
  [0m
  [0mThis election was so polarizing I am very afraid the country can recover from it.
  [0m
  [0mI am worried enough we have bug out bags packed, with critical documents, as I expect this could easily
  [0mescalate to a civil war as both sides are convinced they are right; and more worrisome is that the other side
  [0mis so completely corrupted that they are not Americans or humans and should be taken out like the trash.
  [0m
  [0mWe have Trump who will not concede and will fight this to his last moment; and then will continue to fight it
  [0mfrom the side lines.
  [0m
  [0mWe have AOC on twitter asking people to send names for her registry of Trump supporters for future
  [0mretribution. You know who else kept such lists? Hitler, Mao, Mussolini.
  [0m
  [0mReally scary times down here. Much worse than when Trump won in 2016.
  [0m
  [0mThe US needs all the help, prayers, and luck it can muster right now to find it's way through this.

                                                   [1m▶ 5 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 5 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjakear[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGuessing you’re referring to:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when they try to downplay or deny their complicity in the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mfuture? I foresee decent probability of many deleted Tweets, writings, photos in the future[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLol at the “party of personal responsibility” being upset at the idea of being responsible for their[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mbehavior over last four years[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhich I’m sure all will agree is not how you have characterized it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf I’m incorrect pls provide sources.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msanguy[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mShe supports this project: [34mwww.trumpaccountability.net[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mKeeping such lists is wrong on many levels; and for a member of congress to suggest and support such a thing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis beyond comprehension. I suggest going and standing in Dachau or similar places and reflect on what such⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlists have been used for in the past.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt also seems others feel the same (random selection from many google results):⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mnypost.com/2020/11/06/aoc-facing-heat-for-wanting-to…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdsomers[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI looked up that tweet from AOC [[37m0[0m] and you’re really exaggerating what she said. Shame one you.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m][34mmobile.twitter.com/AOC/status/1324807776510595078[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mzepearl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThx - unsuccessfully tried to find it earlier… .⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou're right, (directly) not so extreme as mentioned upstream.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAt the same time I think that mentioning "archiving" is in my opinion very dangerous especially when stated⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mby a politically exposed person. I don't like that at all.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think that his/her (upstream) fears derived by that tweet are unfounded.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEDIT: btw., I think that in general the "spirit" after these elections should not be to create further⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdivisions (persecution in this case), but to unify and to find a middle ground between parties to make⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthings work.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTechBro8615[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSmoke less weed and relax. There's not going to be a civil war.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbeloch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a Canadian, what stands out for me about the last two elections is that many Americans seem to desperately
  [0mwant a variety of political reforms, but neither party seems interested in providing them. Trump and Sanders
  [0mboth sold themselves as reform candidates in 2016, but only Trump wound up on the ticket.
  [0m
  [0mSanders might be the real deal, but he's not going to represent a major party until donation and campaign
  [0mspending limits (like we have in Canada) reduce corporate influence on U.S. politics. Sanders scares away the
  [0m"big money" that U.S. elections depend so heavily on.
  [0m
  [0mTrump has not proven to be a reform candidate in any sense of the word. As a political outsider with control
  [0mover both the house and senate for his first two years in office, he had the power to deliver meaningful
  [0mreforms, but didn't. Americans desiring reform [3mshould[0m have felt deeply betrayed by Trump's first term.
  [0m
  [0mThe democrats had a smoother primary in 2020, but decided on an utterly bland candidate. Biden is a return to
  [0mthe status-quo. I predicted that, after the last four years, a return to the status quo would appeal to many,
  [0mbut this election proves otherwise. This [3mshould[0m have been an [3measy[0m slam dunk for the Democrats to win, but it's
  [0mturned out to be a squeaker!
  [0m
  [0mIf the democrats ride the status quo for the next four years and both parties were to run the same candidates
  [0magain, I suspect Biden would lose. The Democrats need to pay attention to what Americans want.
  [0m
  [0mI would suggest that Biden's administration should, despite running on a thoroughly status-quo platform,
  [0m[3membrace[0m reform. Too many Americans mistrust their own political system, to the point that they're willing to
  [0mpicket polling stations because they think fraud is being committed. That must be fixed. Finding ways to
  [0mreduce the influence of money on politics (e.g. campaign spending limits) would be a good start. It will also
  [0mbe an easy sell to devolve and distribute some of the powers that have accumulated in the white house over the
  [0mlast several decades. If you're not comfortable with some of the powers Trump wielded during his time in
  [0moffice, then perhaps those powers shouldn't rest with the POTUS.
  [0m
  [0mBottom line, if the democrats try to pretend Trump [3mnever[0m happened and [3mcouldn't[0m happen again, they're in for
  [0munpleasant surprises.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mNicoJuicy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI am very curious on what someone voted for Trump.
  [0m
  [0mAnd what I ask here, is that I expect someone here to be straight forward and eg. Just mention when they just
  [0mwant lower taxes, for example.
  [0m
  [0m( I'm not an American, just curious about other perspectives, since the groups I'm in are more liberal based,
  [0mfrom a US perspective)
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjeffrallen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis election was your regular 4 year reminder that the electoral college is stupid and that the National
  [0mPopular Vote Interstate Compact needs to be completed.

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mstjo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf I understand how the election works, the “first past the post” voting system is just as damaging. Correct⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mme if I’m wrong, but they are not related.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mExplanation from game theory pov: [34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=yhO6jfHPFQU[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mabvdasker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI agree with that, though I am pretty concerned that the NPVIC would be struck down by the now 6-3⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconservative SCOTUS.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwrkronmiller[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don’t disagree with your goal but I think you ought to elaborate on your arguments.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe electoral college balances geographic diversity against raw popularity. This is just one of many ways the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUS government gives outsized power to vocal political minorities. Perhaps explain why you don’t like things⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthis way?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrixrax[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI am holding my breath until Jan 6th at least when electoral college votes:
  [0m
  [0mUrl: [34mcrsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641[0m
  [0m
  [0mThe Electoral College: A 2020 Presidential Election Timeline

                                                   [1m▶ 17 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 17 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbialpio[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNitpick: they vote on Dec 14th, but the votes are counted on Jan 6th. Thanks for the link, very educational!⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSvip[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Electoral College votes on the first Monday after the 2nd Wednesday in December; so the 14th. What⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhappens on 6 January is Congress ratifying the electoral votes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd it's the state legislatures that effectively elect their state's electors, which needs to be done before⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m14 December.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mminimaxir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFaithless electors will not invalidate the results, especially in this case where Biden has much more than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m270 electoral votes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mIzkata[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mStill a bit early to say "much more": Arizona can still flip (it's been inching ever closer and is at 0.6%⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifference at 90% counted) and Georgia has already announced a recount because it's so close.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf those do both actually end up in Trumps favor, that puts him only 11 electoral votes short. If the voting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmachine errors in Michigan do turn out to be a thing (and the error is large enough), or he wins legal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbattles there or in Pennsylvania, that's enough to flip the whole election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's a very long shot, but this isn't actually over yet until everything is counted and verified.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCalChris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mProbably true but faithless elector laws are at the state level. There were 7 validated faithless electors⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min 2016, the most ever.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_electors_in_the_2016…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faithless_elector#Legal_ruling…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1motterley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocrats prayed for such an occurrence in 2016 to no avail. Why do you believe the results will be different⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthis time?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mperennate[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mClinton conceded the election to Trump the day after the election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/nov/09/hillary-clin…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRandallBrown[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGeorgia and Pennsylvania don't have laws preventing faithless electors from voting against their state's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwinning candidate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's looking like the lead will be big enough that even in the (very) small chance things go wrong it won't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmatter.⁣
  ⁣
   [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDec 14th is a better deadline to watch. That's the date at which a state's "Certificates of Ascertainment" is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdue. If they miss this deadline, the electorate votes are forfeited.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mKeep in mind some of these swing states don't have strong one-party control of the state legislatures, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthere could be a strong appetite for a recount or closer scrutiny of the ballots.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mcrsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpstrateman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah… there's questions about mail-in/absentee voting that are going to the supreme court.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m'Justice Alito temporarily grants Pennsylvania GOP request to enforce segregation of ballots that arrived⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mafter Election Day'⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.washingtonpost.com/politics/pennsylvania-ballots…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere really aren't; as that article says, the state was already doing what the GOP sued to require, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthose ballots are both small enough in number and likely enough to favor Biden that even saying there are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"questions" is overblown.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlwansbrough[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat was already the policy and was happening before the ruling, the ruling basically just formalized the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolicy. Doesn’t change anything.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhilbertseries[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey’ve been keeping those ballots separate and their are 1k of them. They don’t matter.⁣
  ⁣
    [1motterley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey were already doing that; and even if they weren't, it would not change the outcome.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRemember that when it comes to non-emergency motions, courts are unlikely to grant the form of relief⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrequested when doing so would be moot.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mMisterBastahrd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey don't matter. Biden's margin in PA is without those votes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprossercj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt’s tantalizing and, in my opinion, overtly political that the Washington Post uses the phrase “enforce⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msegregation” here. This similar story from Reuters says “separate”:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mmobile.reuters.com/article/BigStory12/idUSKBN27N030[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mEGreg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhen I was growing up, Conservatives were the ones much more proud of US institutions, like the courts,
  [0muniversities, and even the free media, while Liberals and Leftists such as Chomsky were always criticizing
  [0mthese institutions, e.g. the media in the book Manufacturing Consent. (They criticized it as being too much a
  [0mmouthpiece of the government.)
  [0m
  [0mI find it interesting that four years of Trump's usual blame-shifting, together with his fan base, has
  [0mresulted in Trumpists blowing way past the Leftists in their distrust of all US institutions. This is far
  [0mbeyond the Tea party's displeasure with government spending. Sure, Republicans distrusted scientists before,
  [0mbut now Trump supporters distrust the following for partisan reasons:
  [0m
  [0mMedia
  [0m
  [0mPolls
  [0m
  [0mElection
  [0m
  [0mScientific establishment
  [0m
  [0mMedical establishment [[31m1[0m]
  [0m
  [0mUniversities
  [0m
  [0mCourts (so-called judges[[33m2[0m], Mexican heritage[[32m3[0m] etc.)
  [0m
  [0mFBI
  [0m
  [0mCIA
  [0m
  [0mIRS
  [0m
  [0mand much more.
  [0m
  [0mAre the institutions perfect? No. Is there fraud and corruption? Sure, but comparing to other countries
  [0mrelatively little, and probably less than in the past. But destroying Americans' trust in these institutions
  [0mcan be dangerous. I can understand dissidents doing it, but the President?
  [0m
  [0m1. [34mctmirror.org/2020/10/18/inside-the-fall-of-the-cdc/[0m
  [0m
  [0m2. [34mwww.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/04/tr…[0m
  [0m
  [0m3. [34mwww.politifact.com/article/2016/jun/08/donald-trumps…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mprossercj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAnyone else want to see more states adopt something other than a winner-take-all allotment of electoral votes?
  [0mHere in Pennsylvania we’d be about evenly split. I wonder if splitting our electoral votes would moderate our
  [0mpolitics.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1maabhay[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would unquestionably help republicans. The problem is that the collective models highly favors small⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstates. So even if large states agree to split their votes, small rural states will still drive the count.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnoobermin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHonestly, the right thing to do is go all the way and just elect the president by popular vote.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mineedasername[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI just hope we have a relatively boring 4 years without daily issues that get people on one or both side of
  [0mthe political spectrum upset/angry/hateful/malicious.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mshadykiller[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mLooks like Biden would be able to fulfill his promise of not changing anything:
  [0m[34mwww.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-no…[0m
  [0m
  [0mIf the same situation persists in 2016 like the deep economical divide, we may even see another Trump like
  [0mfigure rising

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjustinzollars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI agree with this perspective. We have not seen the end of Donald Trump. We have tough years ahead.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1misabelc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe division will not be fixed until they realize that the division is not ideological.
  [0m
  [0mMost of these comments imply that the division is just ideological. I guess everyone here is so financially
  [0mwell off as to never having been too poor to afford health insurance but just above the cut off to get free
  [0mhealth insurance. Families with kids and high living costs, and then being forced to pay over $2000 as penalty
  [0mfor not affording healthcare, it broke many spirits.
  [0m
  [0mIt was the ACA "Individual Responsibility Mandate" and it is the reason why all the hispanics in Florida
  [0mwithout health insurance that I know, voted for Trump in 2016--because he said he'd get rid of that depressing
  [0m$2000+ fine. Which he finally did.
  [0m
  [0mSimple as that, and certainly not as idealistic as these comments imply. Those who don't see that did not have
  [0mto pay that ACA "Individual Responsibility Mandate" while being poor in an expensive city.
  [0m
  [0mA "new direction for divided US" would mean that these politicians stop pretending people vote idealistically
  [0mversus based on finances. Reading these other comments, one would think all the brown Floridians who voted for
  [0mTrump are white supremacists. I thought Hacker News was above that simplistic rhetoric.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgreggturkington[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI guess "the hispanics I know" forgot the proposed revisions to Title X and slashing across the board to any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mACA outreach, much to their detriment.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI thought Hacker News was above that simplistic rhetoric[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNope. Ideas like "hispanics voted for Trump [because of the mandate…], simple as that" are still abundant.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mkyleblarson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mGet ready for 4 years of hard hitting articles like this from the MSM:
  [0m[34mwww.npr.org/sections/live-updates-2020-election-resu…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mseanwilson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOn the topic of combatting disinformation, has any government rolled out a plan to educate the public on
  [0mcritical thinking? Did it work?
  [0m
  [0mI'd love it if the names of common logical fallacies were known by everyone and anyone lying to the media or
  [0mmaking unsubstantiated claims would be immediately shut down e.g. "that's just a character attack, you're not
  [0manswering the question".
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mspinny[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe division was created by all the media (social included) manipulation of reality perception. I bet that in
  [0m2016 a much higher percentage of votes were against Hillary. In 2020 the "against" was very likely higher.
  [0mDivision will likely keep increasing as everybody's media feeds become more and more tailored to the
  [0mindividual looking at them

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthinkingemote[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWorth also pointing out that 4 years ago that social media was implicated as being manipulated by Russians.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSeems like no foreign state interfered this time around, but the point was that the Democrats blamed division⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mon social media on the Russians and that most of us have amnesia about that.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mlynndotpy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a graduate student, Biden's win is personally a huge relief for me and my peers. Most of my fellow grad
  [0mstudents are international students, and it was very concerning to have the possibility of another four years
  [0mof this anti-science, anti-academic, anti-China and generally xenophobic administration.
  [0m
  [0mSo, this is received as Very Good News.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDecember 14th is the deadline to watch. That's the date at which the state must deliver the "Certificates of
  [0mAscertainment", signed by the governor. If they don't deliver by this date, the votes are forfeited.
  [0m
  [0mFrom this point to Dec 14th we're likely to see some interesting legal proceedings before the supreme court,
  [0msuch as whether or not ballots received without a postmark after election day can be legally counted (this
  [0mmight have impact in certain counties in Michigan and Pennsylvania).
  [0m
  [0m[34mcrsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/IF/IF11641[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mece[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIn general I think racism and misogyny will need to be disarmed in ways that they haven't been in the past.
  [0mNextdoor and Reddit might be best examples which Twitter and Facebook could follow. Increasing friction to
  [0mpost/repost, more fact checks, more labels on misinformation, and better localized moderation in general
  [0mshould be something these companies should have a good handle on already, but it seems like they've barely
  [0mstarted grasping the problems.
  [0m
  [0mIt almost seems like if this isn't tackled head on instead of being ignored, that there might be scant
  [0mprogress on other issues like climate change.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mnot_a_moth[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis title is actually wrong because networks don't decide who wins. If Biden wins, let it be because all due
  [0mprocess was followed so that the 71MM who voted for Trump can get behind the new president. There are close
  [0mand contested elections in various states, with mandatory recounts set, as well as lawsuits underway with
  [0maffidavits of blocked observers and allegations of fraud. For the sake of not dividing the country, let the
  [0mTrump half of the nation have their day in court, and then let's unify behind the new president.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbendmorris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you really think there's an amount of "due process" that will convince all Trump supporters to get behind⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden? Trump has clearly been planning to call the election illegitimate since long before it happened -⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcasting doubt on mail-in ballots, etc. He hypocritically advocated continuing counts in some states and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstopping them in others depending on whether he was ahead. He claimed without evidence that dead people had⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvoted, late cast ballots had been counted, etc. And he falsely claimed that only votes counted by election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnight were legitimate.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you honestly think once his claims relating to poll observers go through due process, everyone will be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msatisfied?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPragmatically, there is such a slim chance that any of his challenges change the outcome of the election,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat it's reasonable to consider Biden President-elect at this point.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnullc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis title is actually wrong because networks don't decide who wins.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mpbs.twimg.com/media/El74_VZWMAYZtnZ?format=jpg&name=…[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgdubs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAn unforgettable week. An unforgettable year. The most intense and unusual — especially given the
  [0mcircumstances — campaign in my lifetime.
  [0m
  [0mI really do hope we can come together, and put divisions aside. In real life, people have more in common than
  [0mwe might think based on what happens online. There are actual differences, and a lot of anger, and resentment.
  [0mBut what makes America special is our reimagining of democracy, every generation — something we’re all a part
  [0mof, if we choose to be.
  [0m
  [0mHere’s to science and civility.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgrosales[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a dad and an United States citizen, I am proud to call Joe Biden , my president.
  [0m
  [0mWhen he was sworn in as a senator - after his wife and daughter died in a car accident after he won the seat.
  [0mHe said:
  [0m“If in six months or so there’s a conflict between my being a good father and being a good senator, which I
  [0mhope will not occur, we can always get another senator but they can’t get another father,”
  [0m
  [0mAs a father, I understand the feeling. It also shows me he is a fighter, he has always been. We need someone
  [0mlike him to unite us and move us forward.

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1merichocean[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden is literally the most popular president for Blacks in US history, blowing past Obama. Historic!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLOL Some HN racist Trump voter downvoted this. Facts hurt!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtemo4ka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey are not so much pro-Biden as anti-Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowaway946284[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDon’t forget Kamala Harris⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjulius_set[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOk legit question, is Biden’s mental health an issue? (i.e. Dementia, Alzheimer’s). Surprised my family brings
  [0mthis up, and I’m not sure how to reply back to them..

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDylanDmitri[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMy brother met him in an informal setting about two years ago, and expressed concern then over "wow he seemed⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreally old / out of it". But Biden's current speeches and interviews seem lucid and coherent so maybe he was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjust having a bad day back then.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe presidency, like most other executive jobs, ends up being run by a team of people working together behind⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe public figurehead. I have faith in Kamala, in the White House advisors, in the picks for cabinet⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpositions, etc. Biden will probably invite back many Obama-era advisors, as opposed to white nationalists⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlike Stephen Miller. Decent people tend to build decent organizations.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mb20000[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs far as I know the votes still need to be counted again. And, you can probably forget about that stimulus
  [0mpackage if Biden really wins.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlizardking[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnless the democrats win the Georgia special elections and do away with the filibuster. The former seems like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma coin flip, but if it happens the latter seems like a certainty.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mzw123456[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI think we should thank the people who counted the votes, all of them, but especially the ones in those
  [0m"battle ground" places who had to feel a lot of pressure and had to work in difficult circumstances during a
  [0mpandemic. Thank you all poll workers, you help make our, sometimes confounding, democracy work.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgodelmachine[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOne of the important things I would be watching out is if Biden lives up to his word of removing the hurdles
  [0mon family based immigration, as has been outlined in [34mjoebiden.com/indian-americans/[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mriffraff[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m3551 comments in this discussion as of now. I wonder if this will be the most commented thing in HN ever.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjames1071[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mStrange country where the media says who won the election. Elsewhere, there is an official announcement.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmjfl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mwhat do people think about the voting irregularities in this election
  [0m
  [0m- the delays in Nevada - the early calls in Arizona - the delayed, large swing in pennsylvania - the glitches
  [0min Wisconsin and Michigan - the military vote coming in 4:1 Biden in Georgia
  [0m
  [0mAre we allowed to talk about that here or is it verboten?

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1musername3[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCreate an Ask HN for this. Data analysis is on topic here.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI’m not sure if they were anomalies. Trump advocated not to use mail in ballots, Biden encouraged everyone to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstay safe and use ballots. So it’s likely that ballots would overwhelmingly have support for Biden.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt this point, all we can do is speculate. Unless someone produces hard evidence that holds in court, there⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0misn’t much substance to going down the rabbit hole of speculation.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mkyleblarson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe centrist left and the centrist right need to come together to create a new political party.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrasengan0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHacking defeat: [34mwww.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/11/09/why-trump-cant…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgmays[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOn a related note, this was interesting to watch about what happens if a candidate refuses to concede:
  [0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=WZWRhLW7Y8w[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mashtonkem[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI look forward to not being consumed by political news every single second of the day.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtomerbd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFor an outsider non US guy looking at the democrat / republican debate seems like a debate between a IntelliJ
  [0mdark mode and IntelliJ white mode both are a matter of taste but code is the same.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mIfOnlyYouKnew[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI‘m an „outsider non US“ guy and if you can’t spot the difference b/w Trump and really any normal politician,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mincluding Biden, you’re just ignorant.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrandshift[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWow I just need to comment to be part of this historically large thread!
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mk__[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDid he get the senate?
  [0m
  [0mI had the impression, he can't do much without it, but news from yesterday implied he might get it too, then
  [0mBiden could even do more than Obama if he has senate backing him.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mredisman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe’ll know in January after the two Georgia seats are up for another vote. Right now, no.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjakeogh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mApproaching peak Fake News. Buckle up.
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=s29jKFQD6rw[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mcgrealy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mLeaving Trump aside for the moment, the last four years have shown up how fundamentally undemocratic the US
  [0mis.
  [0m
  [0mNo one ever expected Trump to get more votes than Biden. Even the Republicans were well aware of this. In
  [0mfact, 7 of the last 8 Presidential elections have ended with a Democrat getting more votes than a Republican.
  [0m
  [0mYet even with a 3.5 million vote lead, the perception was the election was on a knife edge.
  [0m
  [0mThis is ridiculous. The EC is an anachronmism and needs to be abolished. It made sense when it was
  [0mestablished, but it's clearly not working.
  [0m
  [0mSame for the Senate. [3m70% of people are represented by 30% of Senators[0m.
  [0m
  [0mYou desperately need to fix your broken electoral systems.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjakeogh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAh. The AP. Ideologically it's NTY's parent org. Called #7 before it came down[[33m2[0m]. Amazing really.
  [0m
  [0mThe US is -not- going to be run by the modern uncle police[[31m1[0m]. 2020 is just getting interesting.
  [0m
  [0mI predict Trump legally gets a 3rd term.
  [0m
  [0m[[31m1[0m] [34mv6y.net/unclepolice.mp4[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[33m2[0m] [34ms3.amazonaws.com/nasathermalimages/public/video/pret…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgraycat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHere is a simplifying view: In the US there are some people, less than 1% of the voting population, who have a
  [0mlot of power and control of a lot of money and are looking to the political system to make more money.
  [0m
  [0mThis less than 1% do disagree among themselves, and that disagreement is the fundamental source of essentially
  [0mall the political fighting.
  [0m
  [0mFor the other 99+%, there isn't much to fight about.
  [0m
  [0mWhat the other 99+% want can be summarized in one word — [3mmore[0m. For more detail, they want the two biggies,
  [0mpeace and prosperity. For more, they want "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness", financial and
  [0memotional security, love, home and family, good health, happy, successful children. There's not a lot to fight
  [0mabout there.
  [0m
  [0mSo, again, the fighting is from the less than 1% who want to use their money and power to get more money.
  [0m
  [0mOf course, way more than 1% of the voting population are highly concerned about politics, are fighting, but,
  [0msorry, guys, they are foot soldiers, pawns, for the less than 1%.
  [0m
  [0mAs an example, let's take one of the issues, say, health care. Glancing at history, US health care has come a
  [0mlong way since the lone country doctor with a one horse carriage. In terms of current US medicine, he was not
  [0mvery good. Point: Health care has changed a lot and is still changing, rapidly. So, what solution we come up
  [0mwith should accommodate such change.
  [0m
  [0mHealth care can be really expensive, and we need a solution for that. We need in some sense to [3mlevel out[0m the
  [0mcosts, make them predictable. Ways have been private medical insurance, health care membership organizations,
  [0mand government provided health care.
  [0m
  [0mSo, here are the main concerns: Private health insurance is too expensive for a major fraction of the
  [0mpopulation, so those people look to other options. Then for the other options, concerns are quality of care
  [0m(it might be too cheap and not very good — loved ones could die), waiting times, and big tax increases. Point:
  [0mThese are all issues, but some examples can show that we should be able to do quite well on all the issues of
  [0mquality, waiting times, costs, etc., well enough that we should not have much to fight about.
  [0m
  [0mAnd there has been the issue of private insurance and "pre-existing" conditions. We can all agree that it
  [0mwould be nice for private insurance companies to ignore such data, conditions. And the richer US states did
  [0mhave laws forcing the insurance companies to so ignore. But maybe now the US is wealthy enough to so ignore
  [0mfor everyone. Hopefully. So, we can all agree or nearly so. Not much to fight about.
  [0m
  [0mSo, what is the cause of the the fighting? With some approaches and situations, for less than 1% of the voting
  [0mpopulation, there is or can be a lot of money involved, or a lot of power and then a lot of money.
  [0m
  [0mMy view is that we can go down the list of main political topics and conclude the same — for 99+% of the
  [0mvoters, there's not much to fight about except some people, less than 1%, want to fight to make money, big
  [0mmoney.
  [0m
  [0mBut for various policies, operations, programs, etc., it really is possible just to make a mess, to create
  [0mwaste. At least the 99+% can be against the waste!
  [0m
  [0mE.g., for the [36m$trilions[0m W and Obama spent on Gulf War II, was that from (a) people who were in line to make
  [0mmoney from the effort or (b) just waste? I'd say, some of (a) but mostly (b). Point: Not all the issues are
  [0mabout the less than 1% seeking money and, instead, there can also be ordinary waste.
  [0m
  [0mBottom line: The 99% should throttle the less than 1%, settle differences, and get on with life.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmanigandham[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMost people (in this election) are more voting against something they hate rather than for something they
  [0mactually like and want.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1masdfman123[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhy do people think the president is supposed to be a person to grant your every wish and fix all the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproblems in America?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's an imperfect system. But at least we don't have someone in office who is actively trying to break it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0manymore, at least.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmanigandham[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSocial media, and media in general, have a lot to do with it. The president won't have much impact on the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mday-to-day lives of most people. That's how government was setup with checks and balances.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYet people have been trained and agitated into believing a singular group and person is responsible for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meverything possible, even though local state and city policies make much more impact.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdsauerbrun[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAgreed, but what other choice was there given the system?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmanigandham[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't have answer to the current system. I wish there was a way to vote for individual policies instead⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand the system would find the candidate that most matched.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mvcanales[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSo, American friends, I can't imagine Trump stopping his hissy fit and conceding… what happens if he doesn't
  [0mconcede?

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkrapp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNothing. There is no legal requirement to concede, it's just a polite formality. At noon on January 20,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDonald Trump will no longer be President of the United States and he will leave the White House. The Marines⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand Secret Service will politely but firmly escort him and his belongings to the curb if necessary.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdevit[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt's pretty remarkable though that almost half of the US voted for someone who is clearly unsuitable to be
  [0mpresident based on his first term.
  [0m
  [0mIt might be time to consider letting go of the democratic ideal that every person's vote has the same weight,
  [0mand figure out some criteria for either voting eligibity or vote weight that would mostly exclude or give
  [0mlittle weight to the votes of people who voted for a clearly unsuitable candidate.

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mColanR[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's the way it was originally, when only people who owned land could vote (not the men-only part). It was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma basic test of responsibility, similar to the 501-karma downvote requirement on HN. Holding land wasn't that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhard, but it did indicate a baseline.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnless you're thinking of only allowing certain political or moral viewpoints to vote? That sounds fairly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdystopian, no matter what one believes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEdit: we used to have something else like that - a certain subset of the population only got ⅗ of a whole⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvote. But I really doubt that's what you want.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdevit[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe simplest would be to weight one's vote by some non-decreasing function of the number of people who live⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the same conurbation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat would partially achieve the outcome and also makes sense, because if someone wants to live in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0misolation, then they probably don't care and aren't affected very much by society's policies, and they don't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave enough social experience to be correctly informed.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSamReidHughes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey actually weren’t allowed to vote at all.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkortilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mclearly unsuitable candidate.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf people vote for a candidate and the candidate meets the eligibility requirements in the constitution,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhe/she is suitable. That’s it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you want to change the constitution to say that only Democrats can be elected president (this election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mended up falling right down party lines again), I think you’re gonna have a hard time getting that through⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCongress.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmhh__[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMaybe move to a system instead where some people's vote have any weight instead, rather than abolishing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocracy.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe EC means people's vote not only get put down the drain, but also they get to vote for candidates⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnominated with knowledge of this (swing states might not vote for a candidate popular everywhere else)⁣
  ⁣
   [1msilvestrov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mletting go of the democratic ideal that every person's vote has the same weight[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUSA has already let go of it, as convicted felons don't have a right to vote.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mvowelless[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat kinds of investments can one make to capitalize on a Biden victory? For example:
  [0m
  [0m* If Biden will be weak on China, do we expect Chinese tech companies to perform well and if so, how can we
  [0mget exposure to that? Some China tech ETF?
  [0m
  [0m* Biden will likely support a lot of green endeavors, and so Green ETFs could be a good BUY.
  [0m
  [0m* If there is a blue sweep, then there could be a massive stimulus, which would mean lots of money slushing
  [0maround in the market. Maybe QQQ is a good BUY.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdarksaints[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're too late.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mTopInvestor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBetting websites use the certification of the Federal Election Commission in order to pay out wagers.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mop03[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m"Democracy - that flash of light between feudalism and automation and then it's gone"
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mxupybd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI wonder what stories like this are like for the mods on this site. It must be a waterfall of flags.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mfaebi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIs this good or bad for the stock market? Or does it not matter at all?

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOf course it matters: If there is an income tax increase, if COVID lockdowns are renewed or imposed on a more⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfederal level, if the US ceases to be a net exporter of oil, if the tariffs with China are suspended, they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwill go down.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlalaland1125[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf the tariffs with China are suspended the stock market will probably go up. The trade war with China has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeen a disaster.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTechBro8615[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt depends on the senate. If republicans hold control of it after GA runoffs in January, then it will be good⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor the market. The market likes gridlock.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mycosynot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSome people criticize Biden's charisma, but it goes to show that Americans have grown beyond the "popularity
  [0mcontest" that elections tend to be. They elected someone for what he stands for. This does not look like much,
  [0mbut it should be inspiring.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mGrakel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe media doesn't have a role in declaring victory in elections.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdavid927[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThey can’t declare victory, only project. Personally, I’m suspicious of the results, but if nothing changes,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mif fraud is not discovered, it’s a fair call.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mimplements[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Estate[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot an official one, but certainly one of political influence:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m“Though it is not formally recognized as a part of a political system, it [News Media] wields significant⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mindirect social influence.”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media “shifts ground” - in this case making it very hard for President Trump to continue to frame the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0missue in a way to suit himself.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlreeves[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media in this case is using approximately grade 6 math skills to tally up electoral college votes and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeclare that beyond most reasonable doubt Biden won. I think you're overestimating what their role is here.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThey were also very cautious and could have made a declaration earlier than they did.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGrakel[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAl Gore was projected winner, and didn't concede until mid December.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1merichocean[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFavorite fact about the 2020 election:
  [0m
  [0mBiden not only got more Black votes than Obama, he got a higher [3mpercentage[0m of the Democratic Black vote
  [0m(highest in history, in fact).
  [0m
  [0mIOW, Biden is significantly more popular among Blacks than Obama was in 2008 (or 2012). Amazing!

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgizmodo59[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPartly because of the voter turnout. By % wise its not a huge difference.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnostromo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's interesting that Trump and Biden both have exceeded the previous record-holder for most votes: Obama in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m08.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1. Biden '20 - 74,811,378⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2. Trump '20 - 70,554,537⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m3. Obama '08 - 69,498,516⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m4. Clinton '16 - 65,853,514⁣
  ⁣
   [1mabvdasker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo me, a more plausible explanation is that Trump is uniquely [3munpopular[0m with black voters.⁣
  ⁣
    [1merichocean[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump increased his popularity with both Black men and women.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden just got an even bigger increase in metro areas from Blacks, and a higher % of D Black votes than any⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPresident ever (including Obama in 2008).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjoejoeshabadoo5[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, definitely no fraud at all in this election!⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTgXYTFZd9Nrx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAmericans: "we made up our mind about racism, color doesn't matter, all citizens are equal" Also Americans:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"omg look at how the BLACKS are voting!"⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mffggvv[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mthis election was a huge win for republicans, despite trump losing. they (in all likelihood) retain a senate
  [0mmajority, while massively narrowing down the gap in the house.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mpaul7986[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mGreat news and I voted for neither! But what a relief!!!

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1m__float[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDid you vote? For whom?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpaul7986[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMickey Mouse… republican who could not vote for that maniac, hate monger-er!⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1minnocentoldguy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis is inaccurate. The media doesn't have any authority to determine election results. We're back in a
  [0msituation like Bush vs. Gore in 2000 and the election is still up in the air.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbaxtr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mInteresting fact: Trump could be elected president in 2024. I don’t think he will be gone for too long.
  [0m
  [0mEDIT: I am no Trump fan. I just think the fact that he could be president in 2024 is interesting.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1memilsedgh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump has a lot of power now. "Republican kingmaker" they say.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut, within the next 4 years, he will continue discrediting himself. I'm quite sure millions of people will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mstill follow his lead, but it'll slowly get smaller and smaller.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think he will be a Rudy Giuliani type figure. Mostly an angry barking dog that people don't take as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mseriously anymore, just like before he was president.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmrlala[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou need to stop⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtotaldude87[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt’s hard to fathom that even after all things happened in last 4 years , almost 71 million Americans sided
  [0mwith trump.. a divided country needing a decisive leader to heal..
  [0m
  [0mTough times ahead!!
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msupergirl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[3m[2mvowing new direction[0m
  [0m
  [0mSo… same as every president after election everywhere. Watch as Biden doesn't undo any of the things he
  [0mpromised to undo. Same as Obama.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmmastrac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe media was way too cautious in making the call here, but it's easy to understand why when the Republicans
  [0mmade it so difficult to count absentee ballots before election night, likely to benefit their candidate
  [0mthrough the confusion of swinging red and then blue.
  [0m
  [0mIf you don't want this to happen again, pressure your red representatives to stop demonizing mail-in/advance
  [0mvoting, and stop destroying the postal system.

                                                   [1m▶ 31 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 31 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmasklinn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwhen the Republicans made it so difficult to count absentee ballots before election night[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat really can't be noted enough. That the count took so long is specifically because several legislatures⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mdecided[0m to not allow any preprocessing of mail ballots, and to count mail ballots last.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbarumi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThat really can't be noted enough. That the count took so long is specifically because several[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mlegislatures decided to not allow any preprocessing of mail ballots, and to count mail ballots last.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIndeed this bears repeating.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe whole process mounting to the election day was engineered to sabotage and outright throw out votes from⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe opposition, even if that comes at the expense of the core principles of the whole political system.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mWillPostForFood[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's a hyper partisan view of a much more complicated situation. In Pennsylvania, for example, the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRepublican legislature passed laws allowing early counting, which was blocked by the Democratic governor⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecause it limited acceptance of ballots after the election. You can argue the merits of either side, but it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0misn't sabotage or subterfuge.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mabcnews.go.com/Politics/pennsylvania-counting-votes-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtgb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMoreover, some GOP-controlled counties in PA decided to not count mail-in ballots [3mon[0m election day either⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(they were allowed to start when polls open) and instead saved them all for the following day and beyond.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbitcurious[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWaiting to starting the count until the window to vote is over seems like an inherently fair idea - it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcloses the information gap between absentee and day-of voters. Otherwise it’s like a game of Yankee Swap,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhere voting (or trading) last is best.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mModernMech[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLet's bee specific: The legislature in PA. If PA were allowed to start counting before election day, this⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwould have been called on Tuesday.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTrasmatta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere was some interesting game theory stuff going on there, where AP and Fox called Arizona early, but other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnetworks didn't feel it was safe.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd then Nevada has obviously been won for days, but nobody was calling it because that would have put Fox⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand AP over 270. So all the networks just started waiting for PA rather than calling the obvious for Nevada.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmasklinn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mbut other networks didn't feel it was safe.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd might have been right, Biden's lead in AZ keeps shrinking, 3 days ago his lead was 25% of the ballots⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleft to count, now it's 15.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mAnd then Nevada has obviously been won for days, but nobody was calling it because that would have put Fox[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mand AP over 270.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlthough Biden's lead has only grown there saying that it's "obviously won" is a touch optimistic.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbriandear[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAt the time, Nevada had a 8000 vote margin with over 100,000 votes outstanding. The real question is why⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mswing states paused counting.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnojito[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAP and Fox have access to proprietary survey data for AZ.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprh8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt was not obvious for Nevada, because the outstanding votes were the last 2 days of drop-off, which has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mskewed red, and there has been uncertainty about how Vegas would react considering Covid's effect on their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meconomy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnotatoad[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOnce it became clear that the election wouldn't be called on election night, was there really any benefit to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmaking an early call? Whether it was called on Thursday or Saturday seems kind of irrelevant when⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minauguration isn't until January.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's much better to be certain that wrong.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere's an argument to be made that not making the call when the result was already certain, even if the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmargin of 0.5% hadn't been reached yet, was irresponsible in the sense that it allowed Trump more time to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpromote this idea that he has won, everything's fraudulent etc. (Just look at his last tweet:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/13250998450450718…[0m)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI disagree with that argument FWIW, but I can certainly understand it. Though I think people were just⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimpatient to hear "Biden has won" be made official, even if they already knew. I certainly was.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m8ytecoder[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is. The longer it drags the longer you can feed fodder to conspiracies. Calling it too quickly would have⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeen bad as well but not as bad as not calling when the end is clear. I think calling it now seems⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mappropriate even though I don’t think Arizona should have beeen called.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhobofan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mpressure your red representatives to stop demonizing mail-in/advance voting, and stop destroying the postal[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msystem[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou can pressure them all you want on that. It won't change a thing because making it easier to vote via mail⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwill possibly result in them being voted out by making it easier for minorities to vote.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgiantg2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's coming either way. Once a country with a similar representitive system hits 80% urbanization, it's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgovernment tends to be more progressive, especially on certain hot topic policies like gun control.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can already see how the popular vote for president is consistently Democrat. There is also a pact of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstates that promise to vote for the popular vote winner once their ranks have 270 electoral votes. A good⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvisual way to view this divide is the map showing the county-by-county vote allocation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbuzzert[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause minorities are unable to find polling locations? I don’t understand your claim.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbarumi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe media was way too cautious in making the call here,[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's my understanding that it had zero to do with caution and all to do with the fact that the election was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnot decided.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf there are still votes that were not counted and the slim margin between both candidates is smaller than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe number of unaccounted votes then the election results are yet to be determined. Thus it would make zero⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msense to claim that one candidate was the winner when the votes that are yet to be counted are enough to sway⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe results.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mstu2b50[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNot really. Once the models project that it's basically impossible, the DD's call it. They call states like⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCalifornia or Arkansas once they get the exit poll data, before any votes are in.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFox News called Virginia for Biden when there were like 50% votes in and Trump led with 10%.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThey were uber cautious this time and waited for a >0.5% lead.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmarcinzm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe media was way too cautious in making the call here, but it's easy to understand why when the[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mRepublicans made it so difficult to count absentee ballots before election night, likely to benefit their[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mcandidate through the confusion of swinging red and then blue.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm curious about the efficiency of this strategy. I'd figure they'd gain more by allowing early counting,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mleaking the pro-democrat results and thus lowering democrat turnout on election day. After all, why bother⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvoting when it's already in the bag and so on.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjberryman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell, the Republican legislature apparently discussed with the whitehouse about ignoring the popular vote⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand appointing electors for Trump (and was willing to talk about this on record)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2020/11/what-if…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo apparently the strategy was to make the vote counting look suspicious enough that it would give cover for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0messentially a coup.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprh8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe opposite effect occurred in 2016. With Trump leading in east coast states, west coast states saw reduced⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDemocrat turnout (relative to norm)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjberryman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd stop closing polling places in urban (Black) neighborhoods, etc, etc⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchlodwig[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mbut it's easy to understand why when the Republicans made it so difficult to count absentee ballots before[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3melection night,[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn Pennsylvania, the Republican House passed a bill to start counting three days early but it died in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSenate under threat of veto from the Democrat governor — [34mapnews.com/article/2396bbdd1617a82c4919127726778711[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe Democrats had a separate bill that would have started counting much earlier, but the Republicans opposed⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat for fear there would not be proper oversight over the counting process.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlostdog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat bill also bans dropboxes and makes it harder to get a mail-in ballot. It's just a normal voter⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuppression bill.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mduxup[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTheir cautiousness made sense. Projections just before the election showed a lot steeper win for Biden. It⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdidn't play out that way so it makes sense to be cautious.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump had a lot more support among some demographics than people expected. as the race got tighter it made⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msense to doubt what might play out.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwombatmobile[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTheir cautiousness made sense. Projections just before the election showed a lot steeper win for Biden.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou need to distinguish between the national vote, which met projections with a significant dem majority,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand state races, some of which were close, which is also what was predicted.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkostarelo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mwhen the Republicans made it so difficult to count absentee ballots before election night[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHaven't been watching this closely. Care to share some refs? Thanks⁣
  ⁣
    [1mMisterBastahrd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mabcnews.go.com/Politics/pennsylvania-counting-votes-…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRepublicans in Pennsylvania, a swing state, created a law that didn't allow for absentee ballots to begin to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe counted until 8pm on election day.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgranzymes[0m [31mOP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLooks like they were waiting for Biden to cross the PA recount threshold. He just did (0.51% > 0.5%).⁣
  ⁣
   [1malessivs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mpressure your red representatives to stop demonizing mail-in/advance voting, and stop destroying the postal[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3msystem[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't see why expressing concerns about postal voting would necessarily be a partisan thing. Don't the TWO⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmajor political blocks want a fair process? Perhaps everyone?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m…especially in light of evidence of documented cases. Here is a sample query for: "Fraudulent Use of Absentee⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBallots which resulted in a criminal conviction" (with results ruled as recently as 2020):⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.heritage.org/voterfraud/search?combine=&state=Al…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe result set doesn't include "Duplicate voting", "Impersonation", "Altering the vote count", which are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mseparate criteria (relevant to mention because they are part of the ongoing allegations).⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrangoon626[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMany on here are dominated by the establishment, FAANG and mega banks, all of who back Joe Biden.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mThreeve303[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhatever happens, don't let the country both start and end in Philadelphia.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mgranzymes[0m [31mOP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCNN projects Biden has won PA, and thus the presidency. It has also been called by AP, NBC, and ABC.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mTheRealPomax[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNo: he hasn't, and that's confusing to both "the world" as well as waaay too many Americans: the election
  [0misn't until mid December, when the electoral college casts its votes. You didn't vote for the president, you
  [0mvoted for what your state will try to vote for in December. Unfortunately, state representatives in the
  [0mpresidential election are not universally required to vote along the state election result, and while rare in
  [0mthe past, the current administration is clearly not above bribery and criminal endeavours to get what they
  [0mwant, when they need it.
  [0m
  [0m(Of course, if that's news to you, then you're probably not in the US right now)
  [0m
  [0mBiden is PROJECTED to win the White House, because that's how US elections work. It looks for all the world
  [0mthat he'll win, but he [3mmight not[0m depending on the electoral college: you don't win because the most people
  [0mvoted for you. That's not how elections work in the US.
  [0m
  [0mAnd before someone goes "what are the odds": this isn't 2016 when people still pretended to honour the system.
  [0mWe have 4 years of established corruption, exploits, and literal criminal behaviour to draw on. Until elected
  [0mby the electoral college, Biden [3mhas not won[0m. And remember that many states merely put a monetary fine on being
  [0ma faithless electors: it's not even illegal. $1000 to pick the guy who'll pay you back bigger, instead of who
  [0mthe state voted for? Scandalous! But also: entirely legal.

                                                   [1m▶ 10 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 10 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mSoSoRoCoCo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mit's not even illegal.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSCOTUS from 2020:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/unanimous-supreme-co…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSee comments below. This decision only means states have the right to penalize, but WI, PA and GA have no⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msuch laws.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.fairvote.org/faithless_elector_state_laws[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mArmisael16[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat decision didn’t make being a faithless elector illegal; it just confirmed that it’s legal for states to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdo so.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mDumblydorr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe math is in incredibly against this fever dream. Biden will wind up with 306 electoral votes to Trump's⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m232. You think he can steal over 30 elector votes against the will of their people?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTheRealPomax[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSorry, have you been paying attention the last 4 years? If you discount things because "the maths is against⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit" you maybe underestimate exactly how much of a criminal sociopath the incumbent is. Yes, the maths is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0magainst it. Of course it is. Can we therefore assume it won't happen? Not if you care about your democracy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msurviving.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjefftk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhile what you describe is possible, I really don't think anyone thinks it's at all likely? For example, I⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould happily give you 10:1 odds against (a) the decision of the electoral college is not what we expected⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause of faithless electors and then (b) that decision stands.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkrick[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mObviously I don't think it's likely, but that's not really the point. I literally laughed out loud when I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mread in the local news earlier today that the president of my country "congratulated Biden with his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvictory". (AFAIK, he is not some outlier, many of them did, but unfortunately I couldn't find a full list).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI mean, we all know that's not how it's formally done, and we all know how important formality always used⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto be to these folks. With such vigor they should've just appointed Biden the new PotUSA months ago based on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome CNN polls and be done with it. Trump would obviously protest, but he is protesting now, so what's the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifference?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfairity[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'll up that to 50:1.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mchrismcb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat is more likely is that some vote recount changes things. It is highly unlikely that an ejector will⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchange their mind.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTheRealPomax[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd up to and including the 2016 election I would have agreed with you, but perhaps you haven't noticed the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlast four years, which changed this to "no, that's really not as unlikely right now. If they can get away⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith it, they're almost certainly going to at least try".⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1meruci[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI predict a spike in Covid cases due to mass celebrations.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mransom1538[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAh the forefathers. Thanks for the good system.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mddingus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe division and basically legal corruption are my concerns.
  [0m
  [0mOn a basic level, we are all people and all run the same basic way, and have the same basic needs.
  [0m
  [0mOne layer up, we are Americans. Those of us who travel, or who communicate outside the domestic US, see many
  [0mother nations and often a higher degree of solidarity as citizens.
  [0m
  [0mLooks like a priority problem to me.
  [0m
  [0mWe all need to earn enough to make it, or we all end up paying the costs associated with chronic homelessness,
  [0mfor example.
  [0m
  [0mWe all need to see the doctor too.
  [0m
  [0mEating good food, and the other human basics are not hard to understand.
  [0m
  [0mOften, I see "those other people" type arguments of various kinds too.
  [0m
  [0mLazy people. Different colored people. Weird people. Other people; namely, not people like us, or not in our
  [0mtribe, group, and…
  [0m
  [0mOrdinary people do not have very effective representation. Money talks. And it should, but that brings me back
  [0mto priorities again.
  [0m
  [0mNo judgement, no blame here. Just observations.
  [0m
  [0mI submit resolving these things to a more harmonious body politic is on us people. I am not convinced anyone,
  [0mor entity can just swoop in and improve things.
  [0m
  [0mThat is just where we are today.
  [0m
  [0mOne other observation:
  [0m
  [0mNations older than us have been where we are. Their peoples have had to do the work to get past it, and have
  [0mhad to do that multiple times.
  [0m
  [0mThis tells me we aren't experiencing anything fundementally new, in human terms.
  [0m
  [0mBut it is new to America. New in the sense of the USA being young enough, and the pace of change in the world
  [0mbeing rapid enough for the state of things to feel new, or like doom, or, or…
  [0m
  [0mGiven the burden of improving on our current state lies with us as people, citizens, I submit the following:
  [0m
  [0mWe all need to understand one another better. That starts by talking. Really talking and listening. This is
  [0mbest done sans judgement, and with deliberate intent to understand better.
  [0m
  [0mWe all are where we are in life, and we all have made choices, and relitigating the past does not appear to
  [0mhold answers for our future.
  [0m
  [0mThis is about what we do now. It is about our priorities as humans and Americans too.
  [0m
  [0mTake voting, for example.
  [0m
  [0mPeople had the following options:
  [0m
  [0mVote Major Party
  [0m
  [0mVote other
  [0m
  [0mNo vote.
  [0m
  [0mEveryone made their choice and had reasons, right?
  [0m
  [0mIf we apply the intent to seek understanding of one another and avoid judgement, that means having a talk
  [0mabout why people voted or no voted the way they did.
  [0m
  [0mPeople no voting, often did so because they did not want to consent to, or endorse, approve of what they see
  [0mas ineffective, corrupt governance. Or they did not connect a vote to a positive future for themselves and
  [0mtheirs.
  [0m
  [0mWhy is that? I think many, and include myself until recently, would rush to judge and blame.
  [0m
  [0mA vote for non major party X really is a vote for major party Y. Same for staying home.
  [0m
  [0mAfter talking some, the idea of candidates interviewing for a job comes up and poor or toxic representation
  [0mmeans not approving them for the job, and with that we see lazy, or stupid aren't really valid as reasons why.
  [0m
  [0mI will stop there, and urge you to think about how all of that is framed up as a duty, or burden and how
  [0mpeople may reject all of that in light of what they may see as an irrational election.
  [0m
  [0mSame goes for how people have voted or not before too. Those decisions are made, cannot be unmade and people
  [0mhad their reasons for making them.
  [0m
  [0mNotably, after some real discussion, the reality hits: we can't tell people to approve of potential leaders,
  [0mand we can't dictate what is best, nor their point of view.
  [0m
  [0mWe can talk to them and understand what they need to cast a vote. We can attract them to join a cause and all
  [0mthat too.
  [0m
  [0mSo why doesn't that happen more?
  [0m
  [0mI submit this is a big part of the priority and mutual understanding and consideration discussion we all need
  [0mto have.
  [0m
  [0mWithout that talk being a fundamental part of our body politic, we appear to be divided into factions, blocs
  [0mwho understand others, "those other people" increasingly poorly as pressure to avoid the worst continues to
  [0mrise.
  [0m
  [0mWith that discussion, it becomes much easier to see what we may consider an obvious, rational choice, say
  [0mlesser evil as an example, really is not so obvious, or may even be harmful, not a lesser evil, but perhaps
  [0mjust a different kind.
  [0m
  [0mNo matter how this all goes, at any given time our future is about the decisions we make together, the actions
  [0mwe take together, and the outcome we live with together.
  [0m
  [0mThe election is past us now, but please do consider it was about the votes people were about to cast, not the
  [0mones they may have cast in the past.
  [0m
  [0mTalking about all that is much easier and can be far more effective when people are not also fending off
  [0mnegative, and frankly until we understand one another better, uninformed personal judgements too.
  [0m
  [0mWe are divided to a harmful degree despite all of us having the same basic humanity.
  [0m
  [0mI urge you to talk, and I mean really talk with others very indifferent from you, who live differently than
  [0myou do and understand one another better.
  [0m
  [0mI do not know how we get our priorities in order as people otherwise. And without that, we rub the risk of our
  [0mfuture continuing to be an increasingly mixed bag for increasing numbers of us.
  [0m
  [0mFinally, consider this idea:
  [0m
  [0mWhen we make the discussion about what we oppose, it is not going to be about what we need, or want that is
  [0mgood.
  [0m
  [0mThink about trying to lead a team by only telling them what not to do. They will get somewhere, and it won't
  [0mbe anything anyone opposed either.
  [0m
  [0mWe all benefit from an explicit, public good. That means the basics are in order leaving people with free
  [0magency to get after better, or what they want.
  [0m
  [0mUnderstanding one another better will make that explicit, public good more clear.
  [0m
  [0mIt will improve our basic solidarity as people, reduce division.
  [0m
  [0mI submit one final idea:
  [0m
  [0mThere will not be a net public good we all benefit from and depend on, unless we make the discussion, body
  [0mpolitic, about it.
  [0m
  [0mAnd that is how I am playing it now, and have been for a while now.
  [0m
  [0mI want and need to be voting FOR good, not AGAINST bad, or evil.
  [0m
  [0mYou probably do too, and I encourage you to make more of the discussion about that explicit, public good and
  [0mdemand our leaders do the same things; namely, understand the people they need votes from better, and to apply
  [0mthat understanding to propose policy people can vote FOR, not just default to people voting AGAINST the very
  [0mworst.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mTopInvestor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNothing is officially certified.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1moneandonly1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mnice
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIt's still on our todo list to have some form of karma sharing for situations like this, to make it be less[0m
  [0m[2m ▎[2;3mof a race and/or lottery.[0m
  [0m
  [0mJust disable karma on topics like these. They are going to be submitted multiple times and very quickly
  [0manyway, nobody "needs" the karma and it doesn't matter if nobody gets it.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mAlimJaffer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAgreed. One of the factors that makes HN superior to the likes of reddit is the lack of overt karma farming⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhich reduces the quality of discourse.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(We detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017129[0m)⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mojnabieoot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhile it’s true that the US government needs structural reform, the issue wasn’t anything the Constitution can
  [0mfix by nibbling around the edges. The issue is that the unified Republican elite, along with > 35% of the
  [0melectorate, is fundamentally lawless and anti-democratic, and will do anything it can to cheat its way into
  [0mpower. All three branches are implicated and have been for a while: Bush v Gore in 2000, the US Attorney
  [0mfirings, Shelby County in 2013, the refusal of the Senate to convict Trump in 2020, the disgusting
  [0manti-science politicization of coronavirus, and so on. The scale of Trump’s personal corruption is unique
  [0mamong Republican national figures, particularly in foreign policy. But the racist authoritarianism and
  [0mfundamental disrespect for elections is a defining creed of the party.
  [0m
  [0mOne of the more unpleasant truth about democracy is that it’s quite fragile. In any real sense, the US has
  [0monly been a democracy since 1965. When large segments of the population are ideologically opposed to
  [0mdemocratic governance - universal human rights, respecting fair elections, following the plain text of the
  [0mlaw, and so on - mechanisms by which democracy sustains itself begins to fail.
  [0m
  [0mOne possibility is to amend the constitution to change first-past-the-post voting in all local-to-federal
  [0melections, to let never-Trump types speak out without facing electoral suicide, and to divert
  [0mright-conservative attention away from a single “leader” figure. And obviously the electoral college needs to
  [0mgo.
  [0m
  [0mBut the fact that more than 65 million people voted for Trump at all speaks to a great sickness and nihilism
  [0min American culture. Trump himself might be put out to pasture. But Trumpism existed before he got here, and
  [0mit isn’t going anywhere.

                                                   [1m▶ 16 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 16 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mp5a0u9l[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2munified Republican elite, along with > 35% of the electorate, is fundamentally lawless and anti-democratic,[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mand will do anything it can to cheat its way into power.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is unnecessary. I am of course relieved that Biden won. I am also appalled by Trump and his enablers in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe Republican party. I'm also extremely disappointed that more people did not clearly repudiate Trumpism.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut that 35% of the electorate, which is closer to 48% per Trump vote share, are people and neighbors. This⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mkind of rhetoric only serves to continue the bitter fighting. There may very well be a core of unredeemable,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhite supremacists behind Trump. But I'd like to believe that most are misled, misinformed, yet good people.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI know my neighbor is one in fact.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mojnabieoot[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mBut I'd like to believe that most are misled, misinformed, yet good people. I know my neighbor is one in[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mfact.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSomething I have found increasingly frustrating is this childish attitude that saying “so-and-so is a bad⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mperson” means “so-and-so will always be a bad person and can do nothing to change for the better.”⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSimplistically separating people by “inherent nature” leads to us not calling a spade a spade when someone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis being a bad person, and means bad people can’t ever actually appreciate the scope and impact of their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmisdeeds.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople who voted for Trump did so for reasons that were, by and large, morally outrageous. We don’t need to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtreat them like lost sheep who were incapable of understanding what Trump represents. There were a shocking⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnumber of horrendously terrible people in Germany and Rwanda, and most didn’t go to jail when the genocide⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mended. After WW2 it was really hard to find a German who would say they voted for the Nazis, and I am sure⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmany or those millions of people led upstanding lives. That doesn’t make their decision to vote for the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mracist strongman retrospectively defensible.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(There’s also the related problem of “he can’t be a bad person, he’s nice to me!”)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamirkdv[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe sentiment underlying your comment is an important one. While it's essential to see the goodness in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople, it's also essential that we are honest about bad behavior. Regardless of their goodness, or them⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeing misled or misinformed, > 35% of the electorate has been unwavering in supporting/advocating/justifying⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbehaviors that are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mfundamentally lawless and anti-democratic[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf my neighbor, who I believe is a good person, is abusing their spouse, it is absolutely necessary to call⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe abuse for what it is.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtastyfreeze[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWithout the electoral college we become a nation ruled by the cities. I prefer to maintain the republic so⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mall states have a voice and not go full democracy.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpixelmonkey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe electoral college winner-take-all system has nothing to do with our "republic" or with "rural voters vs⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcity voters".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFrom: [34mwww.npr.org/2020/11/06/931891674/as-presidency-hinge…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"States like New York and North Dakota are valued the exact same way under the current system. They're⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvalued not at all, because they're reliably either Republican or Democrat […] The only way I know how to put⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0murban voters at parity with rural voters and rural voters at parity with urban voters is to make every⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvoter in this country politically relevant in presidential elections."⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe way to do that? A national popular vote that would require candidates to campaign in all 50 states. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meffect would be that every voter would know their vote matters.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"I don't care if you're in the heart of Manhattan or in the outskirts of Helena. When you go vote for the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmerican president, you know what's going to count toward the final result in a national popular vote⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0melection. And you're not going to be treated like a second-class citizen."⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgisely[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mInteresting that in your “nation ruled by cities” ranchers in Wyoming would still have about 50x influence⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min determining the make up of the US Senate when compared to folks in NYC, SF or LA.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mojnabieoot[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat’s a very strange misreading of how elections work (and misstates US demographics, most of us live in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuburbs).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut even taken on its own terms, isn’t that better than “a nation ruled by a rotating handful of states with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnothing in common other than a somewhat steady 50-50 split in the electorate”? The current system is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mindefensible madness.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGwypaas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBetter to let land vote than the actual people right?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcomeonseriously[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe need a better word than "Trumpism". It will be too easy to disregard all the other very good examples you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgave by dismissing it as Trumpism and now that he's gone, so is the problem.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnradov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere are still a significant minority of single issue anti-abortion voters who will support any candidate on⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat basis regardless of what else he does. I don't agree with them, but they exist and they are sincere in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheir beliefs. It's a mistake to confuse that with nihilism.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(We detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017663.[0m)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfriedman23[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNihilism is the truth of the world. Everyone is deluding themselves otherwise. Nearly everyone with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msignificant power is nihilistic. Without god (and even if there was a god) there are no morals. All we have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis genetics. Morals are just bias.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUsing nihilism as a negative descriptor is funny when nihilism as a philosophy isn't against or for anything.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mReality is of course uncomfortable for most people which is why I'm getting downvoted 😊⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcarapace[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m"Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3man ethos."[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1m0xB31B1B[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThere are facts here. Things like Covid 19 and climate change are both real and current or impending
  [0mdisasters. The "left" has solutions and the "right" pretends they don't exist. The US right has slipped
  [0mfurther and further from understanding of what is actually happening around them and under trump specifically
  [0mfell into a disinformation black hole. I hope that future repoublican leaders are more based in reality.

                                                   [1m▶ 16 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 16 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlogicchains[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthe "right" pretends they don't exist.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMost people in the right don't disbelieve the coronavirus exists, they just think it's not dangerous enough⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto warrant massive government impingement on people's rights to free movement, association and commerce.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlarl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhile anti-science exists at both ends of the political spectrum, only one of the major us political parties⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseems to embrace conspiracy theories with gusto. And that party has a not insignificant number of adherents⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat accept the belief that covid is a hoax.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut notice that you've shied away from the climate change claim; the scientific consensus has not gotten⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msofter in the last 20 years, but as recently as a few years ago one party denied the existence of climate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchange. Even recently a considerable majority of the strong adherents of one particular political party⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdisbelieve that climate change is happening.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcarapace[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mpeople … don't disbelieve the coronavirus exists, they just think it's not dangerous enough to warrant[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3m[quarantine][0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's operationally the same thing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn other words, if that belief is wrong they're still killing people.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLet's be cautious. Once we have good testing we can [3mknow[0m where the virus is and contain it without such a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdrastic quarantine. That's the rational, non-partisan thing to do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTerretta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mMost people in the right don't disbelieve the coronavirus exists, they just think it's not dangerous[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3menough to warrant massive government impingement on people's rights to free movement[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA little bit like how one could feel about the 3,000 casualties of 9/11 versus one’s rights to free movement⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mover the past 20 years.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExamples such as this suggest we’re not arguing from probabilities but from partisanship.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m0xB31B1B[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMost people in the right don't disbelieve the coronavirus exists, they just think it's [3mnot going to kill[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[3mthem, its going to kill someone else[0m.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFTFY⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmuzika[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis. Closing all playgrounds in my state for many months was just pushing it a little too far, for example.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mo-__-o[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs someone who experienced covid in a bad way, I’m just going to say a lot of Americans on both sides of the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolitical aisle don’t believe the virus is dangerous. They are just worried about their parents or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgrandparents. Oxymoron, I know, but the inconsistent message and conflicting cross talk from multiple⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparties has created this situation.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtromp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's very much "dangerous enough" if it completely overwhelms hospitals, which we've seen it do before harsh⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmeasures were taken. The people's rights to free movement, association and commerce should not infringe upon⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe right of others to safely breathable air and to medical care if needed.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023021.[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1m0xB31B1B[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot arguing, just curious why? Did I violate something? Something I can do better next time?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm highly supportive of the content moderation procedures here.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mblub[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo, the "left" doesn't have solutions as can be seen by the current course of the pandemic in Europe.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamanaplanacanal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe could probably learn from countries that have successfully handled the situation though, regardless of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhether we consider ourselves “left” or “right”.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mghthor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI believe in climate change. But were also seeing major changes on the rest of the planets in the solar⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msystem as well and last time I checked, we weren't burning fossil fuels on Mars the past century.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe sun is the shared interface we have with the other planets, and I think its the main driver of climate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchange we are seeing. And above that the galactic magnetic sheet is likely driving the sun and driving the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmagnetic fields changes were seeing.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPollution isnt cool, but co2 is the least of our concerns right now. The 12000 year cycle here and it's going⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto be a rough ride.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mFumtumi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis 12k year cycle you are mentioning, is part of climate change calculations.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou are not a minority genius who did a few calculations on back of a notepad, is reading the internet and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnow is smarter than real experts.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mReal experts spend there daily life with it and actually know what to calculate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd yes it is co2.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmambru[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[citation needed]⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmikedilger[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNov 3 - Election Day
  [0m
  [0mNov 7 - News media called a winner (this is not an official act)
  [0m
  [0mDec 8 - Deadline for resolving election disputes
  [0m
  [0mDec 14 - Electoral college casts votes
  [0m
  [0mDec 23 - Deadline for receipt of electoral college votes
  [0m
  [0mJan 6 - Congress counts the electoral college votes
  [0m
  [0mJan 20 - Inauguration Day

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdebt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mJudges have thrown out nearly every lawsuit the Trump campaign has filed.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mthrowaway201103[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTo me what this election (as well as the 2016 election) illustrates, is what a poor set of choices we have
  [0mhad.
  [0m
  [0mIn no sane world should it have been difficult for the Democrats to defeat Donald Trump in 2016. He had no
  [0mhistory in political office, and he lost the popular vote to just about the worst candidate the Democrats
  [0mcould have put up. Had the Democrats put up [3manyone[0m who was less divisive than Hillary Clinton then we are not
  [0mwhere we are today.
  [0m
  [0mLikewise this time around, nobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits. They voted
  [0mfor him because he's not Donald Trump. I have had people tell me they don't care if there is fraud and
  [0mcheating, it's worth it if Trump is defeated. Put up someone with more genuine appeal and you not only get the
  [0m"anyone but Trump" vote but you get enough undecided votes that there isn't any room for questioning the
  [0mresult.
  [0m
  [0mWe need better candidates who generate real support and appeal other than just not being their opponent. Not
  [0msure how to get there.

                                                  [1m▶ 113 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                  [1;2m▼ 113 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mleftyted[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLikewise this time around, nobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits. They[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mvoted for him because he's not Donald Trump.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah, same here, but that's because we live in progressive bubbles. Dem voters chose Biden over many other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidates that progressives preferred.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe need better candidates who generate real support and appeal other than just not being their opponent.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mNot sure how to get there.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou cannot imagine someone actually liking Biden without being soft in the head. And other people cannot⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimagine someone liking Trump without being racist. But these assumptions prove nothing except lack of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimagination.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPeople need to understand how heterogenous the US is…in every way. We have to regain the ability to see the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mworld from other people's perspectives and extract the grain of truth from those perspectives.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mWowfunhappy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI legitimately like Biden. I think he was the best candidate for the current moment.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeople have a tendency towards "visionary" politicians, who arrive with agendas and strive to make them⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreality. Politicians who "flip flop" are derided, because changing your position is a sign that you never⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhad real ideals.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut I think we have this backwards—in a representative democracy, the job of a politician is to [3mrepresent[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe electorate! The ideal politician, then, would be an empty vessel, who was willing to move to wherever⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe people are.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd that's exactly who Biden is. He's always been a centrist democrat, but his "center" moves alongside his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mparty. Biden also believes that governing is fundamentally about building coalitions, not smothering the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mother side.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI am worried that Republicans may simply be unwilling to make any deals, no matter how hard Biden tries or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat compromises he's willing to make. But, [3mif[0m anyone can do it—and that's a very, [3mvery[0m big "if"—then Biden⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobably can.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnullc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think Biden was well selected to be a candidate that everyone could tolerate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut especially given his age and how much focus there has been on suggesting (perhaps falsely) that his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhealth isn't good, a lot more weight has been given to Harris.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHarris did poorly in the primaries and I think even her supporters should be able to see why many people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfind her to be an extremely undesirable pick (it's not exactly the right political climate to nominate a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mself-described "Top Cop", and even Biden has a fairly "law and order" voting history, compared to typical⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor democrats).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI know people who hate trump who claimed to have voted for him or just not voted, because they believe that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0melecting Biden/Harris would create a substantial risk of either Harris becoming president or forcing the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdems to nominate Harris in the next election (and thus excluding viable candidates that actually reflect⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheir views)… and that for all the find wrong about Trump, he's at least substantially ineffectual.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrhizome[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYeah, same here, but that's because we live in progressive bubbles.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden is a stopgap, he was what was required to get rid of Trump, which was job #1, a P1 if you will. A⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"progressive bubble" or other media-created marketing phrase is not a factor, it's a pure transaction: Trump⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas to go. People rose to the occasion this time.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou cannot imagine someone actually liking Biden without being soft in the head[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis isn't a fair interpretation of what they were saying, nor realistic. People are going to lament that a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbig part of Biden's support was functional, in order to get Trump out, but people complain about⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0munchangeable things all the time. It's not significant.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnoobermin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere was only one candidate progressives preferred. Before Super Tuesday, all other candidates dropped out⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand endorsed Biden. THAT's how it happened.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBernie maintained a slight chance up until the outbreak of covid where he suspended his campaign⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mspecifically out of concern for spreading the disease.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfrogpelt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCorrect.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's amazing that in a world where we can all be connected that actual result was we all chose to connect⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith people who think just like us.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoeldg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden is great… maybe not as progressive as other Dem's would like but I am moderate (D) — and here is the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthing, most voters want to pay their bills and not think about politics.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI got really turned off by some of the things Bernie was going for (like voting from prison) which are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpointless if you have someone like Trump in office shredding the whole country. I like Bernie as a person⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbut we would have lost Florida by a landslide with him on the ticket.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor this moment, Biden is great, I couldn't be happier.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mShivetya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI disagree, Democratic voters again did not get to choose their candidate. A candidate was selected for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem. Even better one of the worst candidates during the primary was penciled in as Vice President; she is a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgood little party follower having the approved opinion and not one of her own.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf anything it shows that the party rules above all.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe lesson of Trump is that we have two political parties so immune to outside challenge it took someone of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhis level of money, fame, and more, to beat both parties and make no mistake, be beat both.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHence going forward, when Congress tells you they want to pass laws preventing certain monies from entering⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolitics always understand it is to prevent anyone challenging their two party rule⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnojvek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden wasn’t just selected. People voted for him from a pool of 20-ish candidates in the democratic race.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, Biden is soft. He is not an entertainer. He probably has many missing qualities that Trump had. However⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhe has almost half a century of experience in Congress driving bills and fighting for his constituents. He⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwas the safe bet.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOut of the 20 candidates, Biden was the most likely to defeat Trump. He is a realist compared to the other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidates. People realized that and voted for him. If Bernie was chosen as the candidate, Trump would have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwon a second term. The bet panned out.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI feel it’s so easy to live in a Democratic bubble in Washington state. I guess same goes to California.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMiddle America thinks in a very very different way than we do.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgaze[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSaying that Bernie was cheated isn’t exactly right but also not exactly wrong. The entire news media⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mapparatus beat him down with a lot of extremely bad faith questions. “Do you support confiscating everyone’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mguns?” “Ok so do you think guns are great and everyone should have them?” kinda thing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat may be half of the problem, but the other half is that I think most people think Bernie was just over⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpromising and that they could never have socialized health care, even though most everyone else has it. Much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the same way that the UK couldn’t imagine a country without socialized healthcare, thus voting in Boris⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJohnson, the US can’t imagine a country with it. We’re just completely stuck. It’s a shame.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mroenxi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHowever he has almost half a century of experience in Congress driving bills and fighting for his[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mconstituents. He was the safe bet.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt is extremely notable that Biden is the first candidate in ~30 years to win the presidency and have what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'd call a "serious" career in US Federal politics.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is circumstantial but somewhat compelling evidence that American's don't like Congressional⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexperience. Congress is despised, their wins are thin, their lies are large and their missteps catastrophic.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnoobermin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIf Bernie was chosen as the candidate, Trump would have won a second term. The bet panned out.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBig citation needed. I live in Ohio which went red, you do live in a Democratic bubble but it is different⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthan what you imagine it is.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m2020election[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m47 years of “experience” with nothing to show for it is not a good thing.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mSomeoneFromCA[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGod it is so tired rhetoric: of being "realist" (read - empty suit, not willing to do any change); Biden⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeing most likely to win over Trump (we've already seen, how weak he was), he has almost half a century of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexperience (if not for the appetite for an outsider, Trump would have no chance in Michigan and PA). Mind if⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mask you if you are 40+?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mclaudeganon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would say having Obama promise Biden’s competitors sweetheart deals so they’d drop out of the primary is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpretty close to having been selected. There’s no way he would’ve came out ahead on Super Tuesday without⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mObama putting his hand in the scales on this manner.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIf Bernie was chosen as the candidate, Trump would have won a second term.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd yet centrist candidates lost across the country, Biden won by slimmer margins than Hillary in many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mplaces, progressives won a slate of seats, as well as measures they sponsored like drug decriminalization⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand minimum wage increases. There’s not much use arguing a hypothetical, but the circumstances of Biden’s⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvictory don’t jive with this sentiment.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdougmwne[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think it's a mistake to dismiss Trump in this way. I see Biden as a very safe and strong choice. Trump was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextremely well-liked by his base. I think he is the most magnetic candidate that Republicans have fielded⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msince Regan.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt took a huge effort, a strong and widely palatable candidate, a safe platform, a great campaign, a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpandemic, mail-in voting, all the pooled power of the tech companies, and a lot of luck to take him down.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSeeing how difficult it was just cements it for me that I am in a bubble and that tens of millions of people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave very different worldviews and values than I do. It is very hard to admit to myself that my core values⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmight not be widely shared by others.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m3131s[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mall the pooled power of the tech companies[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere's a start. It's not an advantage to have these criminals try to tell everyone what to think.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnybody with half a brain wants to see them in jail, rather than in a position to curate our realities.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msamiru[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI agree. I also have a hunch that you are in a very different bubble than I am, and the worldview that I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconvey from your bubble does not make sense to me at all. I think I used to be in ”your” bubble when I was a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlot younger.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrbanffy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand values[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis, to me, is the deeply disturbing part. Knowing 70 million people would happily drive me to a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconcentration camp is not something that's easy to dismiss.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US will have a difficult time. It'll get much worse before it gets better.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump has been blatantly slandered by the mainstream media as racist evil orange man, it was 4 years of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m'1984' style brainwashing by the left.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEverything else is secondary when the media controls the masses like 'Ministry of Truth' in some dystopian⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnovel. Just watch real-time CNN headlines when president Trump speaks on ANY subject.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOne of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine, lies, censorship⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand intimidation. 70M people thankfully did just that, which gives hope in the future of this country.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mskrebbel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe need better candidates who generate real support and appeal other than just not being their opponent.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mNot sure how to get there.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mStop giving a single person that much power. The US is huge, it made sense back when news took a month to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmake it across the country, but now it doesn't.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMany of the best-run democracies in the world have a history of unappealing presidents, prime ministers, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mso on. You don't need better candidates, you need the President to matter less. You want the seats in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhouses to dominate the media, not the figurehead.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(free bonus: it'll also help you get rid of that ridiculous two-party system)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdhimes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe're supposed to have checks and balances. It seems a few key individuals were terrified of DJT and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwouldn't stand up to him. Someday maybe we'll know why.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCalChris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Presidency in the US is a weak position compared to the Prime Minister in the UK. Outside of fighting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwars, the President has to convince Congress to give them the authority and money to do anything. Even their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAmbassadors have to approved by the Senate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnemo44x[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI’d go further and say we need the federal government to matter less. I think everyone would be happier if⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwe gave more power to local governments. Power should flow up from the people to the federal government but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtoday it flows downwards. This is why both sides think the other is intolerable.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause the federal government collects so much of the tax revenue they have so much of the power. Politics⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis mainly deciding who gets the money. I’d prefer if my state and my town had more to do with it than pols⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfrom places I have nothing in common with.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mericmay[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou want the seats in the houses to dominate the media, not the figurehead.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYea, so if you could let the media know, that would be great.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m2020election[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLocalism is better for the working class majority. Centralisation is better for costal elites. It’s a no⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbrainer why we end up with the latter.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrow0101a[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHad the Democrats put up anyone who was less divisive than Hillary Clinton then we are not where we are[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtoday.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou say this like Clinton did badly: she got 2.9M [3mmore votes[0m than Trump!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m* [34men.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_United_States_presidentia…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mMost[0m of the voting public [3mrejected[0m Trump in 2016. It's just that 77K of those votes were in the "wrong"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mplaces (MI 10K; PA 44K; WI 23K).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowaway201103[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI said that he lost the popular vote.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy point is that many of his 2016 votes were "anyone but Clinton." If he had a more appealing opponent, it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwouldn't have been close.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mLunaSea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn reality, in 2016, abstention won the election and it wasn't even close.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mInTheArena[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd yet it doesn’t matter to the above posters point. You can blame the electoral college if you want, but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit just means the type of demagoguery to get elected is different.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHillary Clinton had a very long history of antagonizing anytime she could people on the right. For example⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mremember her slut-shaming of bull Clinton’s accusers, or her attack in the “vast right wing consipriacy”⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrying to defend her husband from the totally untrue charges from Monica lewinsky. The reality of it is that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe Democrats have to appeal to more than just their base to be elected. They seem to of learned that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlesson this time.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpessimizer[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou say this like Clinton did badly: she got 2.9M more votes than Trump![0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou say this like Clinton did well. This is a sub 5% advantage over a racist game show host.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpatrickaljord[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYou say this like Clinton did badly: he got 2.9M more votes than Trump![0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's because a few blue states have huge population such as California.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrhacker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMeh, we've had lots of unexciting presidents in the past. In my own lifetime the only president I was ever⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mactually excited about was Obama. I think the only thing that does eclipse that excitement IS not having⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump anymore. I disagree with the notion that we need to be excited about a president in general because⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat's what GOT us Trump. The president should be boring, and move the country forward like a normal, boring⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjob. I yearn for a president that might pop up every 45 days (oh yeah he's the president and he's doing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomething). Instead of what we just had.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWith Trump I feel like we dangerously moved towards having super celebrity presidents that are more⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minterested in being King. I don't think the US should have a King. It should have someone that "PRESIDES"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mover governments boring ass functions.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mKarrot_Kream[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhen the framers were originally drafting the Constitution, they were originally planning on calling the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPresident by "His Majesty", but the framers decided not to in order to specifically discourage any⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0massociation with a King, who rules by fiat, and a President who rules through the consent of the governed.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mLendal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYep. It's just a job. You're supposed to go in there, do the work, and if you didn't do any scandals you get⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreelected. You're not supposed to be in the spotlight every day. You're not supposed to juice the economy or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0many of that. Nobody in a democratic government should have any power over a free-market system. If anyone⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the government including president is messing around picking winners and losers, that's not free-market⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mor capitalism. That's cronyism. We should be picking the president based on his qualifications, not on his⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfalse promises to juice this or that economic sector.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mInTheArena[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis has been a long-standing trend. Since Jimmy Carter each president has been less qualified than the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprevious, and more of a celebrity. Barack Obama hadn’t even held a state wide office for a term when he⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstarted to run for president. Bush and Reagan had at least been governors. Trump, well we’ll seen how that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mturned out.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe best thing I can say about biden at the moment is that he’s phenomenally unlikely to continue this cult⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof personality presidencies that we’ve had.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mArnoVW[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEmanuel Macron, président of France since 2017 famously decided that France needed just that, after 10 years⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof hypermediatisation of his predecessors.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI tend to think he was right.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtarsinge[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou know the US has a presidential and not a parliamentary republic right?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbylfdsa[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump is certainly not presidential, but if you look at his policy, he's not less autocratic and has done⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore to give power to the states than other presidents.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrayiner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou’re reading this wrong. Biden won because he was someone voters in suburban Atlanta could stomach. Any of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe further left candidates would’ve seen Trump win. (The idea of a more left candidate juicing the base⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfurther is bananas. Democratic turnout in this election was pretty much maxed out.)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you don’t know anyone who likes Biden you live in a bubble. My parents like Biden and they dislike the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSquad. The riots scared them. They’re older, and immigrants, and they think Carter was really swell. Biden is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexactly who they wanted. And there are a lot of people like them. They’re the kind of people that turned⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnorthern VA blue.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mNearAP[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mnobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits.<<<[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOn the other hand, I know lots of people who voted him on his own merits which and they listed them as - he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis centrist, he was a senator/VP which means he has the experience and knowledge to navigate congress, he has⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgood ethics/morals (which means they could tell their kids to look up to him), he is a Christian, he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbelieves in climate change.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI know lots of Democrats who are moderates/centrists and preferred Biden over Bernie and Warren.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPersonally, I also found him to be a good candidate and not a 'he is not trump so automatically he is better'⁣
  ⁣
   [1mNican[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI really wish that the US voting system did not rely on strategic voting, in which voters are basically⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mforced to choose the lesser of two evils.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI am a huge proponent of ranked choice voting, and I donate to [34mwww.fairvote.org/[0m. Politics have a wide⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mspectrum of opinions and choices, and our government should represent that.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCarVac[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRanked choice voting (instant runoff) is flawed and confusing to explain to people.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mScore voting or approval voting is simpler and has none of the non-monoticity of instant runoff.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mremram[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUnfortunately every voting system is flawed in some way and strategic voting is still rewarded. Not trying⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto sound like the current one is an intelligent option though, there are plenty of schemes that are strictly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbetter, like the one you linked.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msam0x17[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe have fallen out of touch with working class voters. We need to reconnect with them and their needs.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe also need to undo the damage conspiracy theories have done in the red parts of this country — many⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextremely blue collar meat and potatoes should-be-core-of-the-democratic-party people wince when they hear⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat you are a democrat because they have been taught by fox news and facebook that democrats are evil⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcoastal elites who don't care about the working class and are part of the deep state.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRight now everything we say to them tends to push them further away (e.g. the voter fraud court cases getting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimmediately thrown out in court because they were without merit will be seen by these voters as PROOF of the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdeep state). To win over voters like this, we have to actually _watch_ the media they consume to figure out⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhow to inoculate them from the cult-like conspiracy theories they have become vulnerable to.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoeldg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is the problem with America in general.. the Red's just have a bad case of it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnatchy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was hoping for the Dem ticket that had a more anti-establishment leaning. Biden isn't a nemesis to big-tech⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlike Trump is. He's an established politician who served while the Patriot act was in place. Seems scarier to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mme for increased surveillance and censorship.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mminkzilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mProbably why every tech company told me every day for the last 6 months to vote. I think the thing I’m most⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexcited about with this election is to stop being bombarded by every site to vote!⁣
  ⁣
   [1malkonaut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI have had people tell me they don't care if there is fraud and cheating[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis sounds like you suggest there is/was fraud or cheating, which you shouldn't be doing. Not sure if that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwas what you intended.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI agree with the rest of your post though. Joe here won because of the division in the democratic party. He⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould have lost to most Republicans. He gathered the most votes ever for obvious reasons. People didn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexactly stay home this year. There has never been more enthusiasm for voting, whether it was for or against⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msomething.⁣
  ⁣
    [1merichocean[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere is fraud every election. It doesn't typically change any of the results, though, and can (and should)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe ignored.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf Trump voters are really upset about it, states can audit the vote and show that fraud was a very small⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpercentage, and didn't change any outcomes. (Both sides commit fraud, so they tend to cancel each other⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mout.)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRedBeetDeadpool[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI didn't even know there were claims of fraud or cheating but as I was watching this video of Biden talk of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhow the president gets elected and smirk about the counting taking place[[31m1[0m], I immediately felt something⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moffputting.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNow as someone who makes judgement not completely off facts but from what I see and feel, my eyes squint and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmy mouth pouts discerningly because I feel we are not much better off.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34myoutu.be/XUnuLFIXWv4?t=267[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mardy42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHad the Democrats put up anyone who was less divisive than Hillary Clinton then we are not where we are[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtoday.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLikewise this time around, nobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits. They[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mvoted for him because he's not Donald Trump.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat might just be a function of your bubble. Biden was probably the Democratic candidate with the [3mbroadest[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mappeal, which is in fact his own merit. Biden wasn't running for President of California. He might not have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mdeeply[0m appealed to this or that demographic or ideological slice of the electorate, but if you go too far in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat direction with a diverse electorate you risk getting either electable failures that bully the rest of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe country (like Trump) or unelectable failures (like some of the other candidates in the primaries).⁣
  ⁣
   [1msp527[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocrats can only win at the margin of the electoral college. That margin is [3mnot[0m progressive. The coastal⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocratic strongholds are always going to vote blue. It makes absolutely no sense to adopt their platform.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPolitical game theory favors appealing to the margin and the margin is moderate. The margin doesn’t take an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextreme stance on social issues a la San Francisco. Quite the opposite: they hear things like “defund the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolice” and liberals shouting down “all lives matter” and they feel rightfully as if Democrats are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthreatening their place in society. The progressive politics of exclusion and contempt are totally unfit to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe task of winning the electorate just as much as the equivalent conservative extreme.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mconfidantlake[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnother take is the "moderate" will always vote for their party regardless. By nominating an extremist you⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mget out the vote of those who normally stay at home. Trump was an extreme candidate but the "moderate"⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRepublicans stuck with him. I feel the same thing would have happened with Bernie. The "moderate" Democrat⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmight have shaken their head a bit, but they it wasn't like they would vote for a Republican.⁣
  ⁣
    [1marrrg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhy rightfully?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwan23[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo me, this is one of the biggest problems with politics these days. Everyone wants a candidate that they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlike more than they want a candidate who can ably run the country. The fact is that this country is full of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpeople with different ideas, desires and needs. Donald Trump had real support, but only from a single⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfaction. He was president of his base only. Joe Biden on the other hand, is no one's favorite but it should⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbe pretty obvious to anyone that he's qualified and that he can be a president for all of the United States.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mTimTheTinker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThey voted for him because he's not Donald Trump.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat’s very interesting (but not surprising) to hear. I’m in a conservative bubble, and many people I know⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvoted for Trump because he’s not a Democrat and opposes policies of the modern Democratic Party.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere were many discussions among conservatives on how to set up criteria for what feels to many like a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchoice between good policy and good character — though others argue that’s a false dichotomy to begin with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen most of the job in question is policy (i.e. policy [3mis[0m character in this case).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTomGullen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think Trump repulsed so many people - regardless of policy it was an epoch for the voting population where⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meither you say that behaviour is acceptable or not. Thankfully it was rejected but it’s concerning so many⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople seem to accept such repugnant behaviour if the general policies align with their own politics.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI mistakenly thought the line was way further back than it actually is and I just wonder where the line⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactually is. Trump wasn’t the line, the population could stomach worse.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEither way, I think voting for Biden on the “not Trump” basis is fine, and ultimately the blame for the what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome voters see as an empty dichotomy lies flat at the feet of the short sightedness of the Republican⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mParty.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msimonbarker87[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe thing that those of us outside the US find interesting is that you don’t have a left and a right party.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou have a just right of center party and a far right party. Pick any Democrat (with a few exceptions) and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpop them in another countries left party (Uk labour for instance) and they would be sent over the aisle with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjeers.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy assumption is that the Cold War and fear of anything vaguely “commie” pushed the US that way as the gov⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the 50s and 60s seems (from anecdotes) to have been very progressive.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would love to see what would happen if you had single transferable vote (or similar) that picked the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msingle issue voters away from the GOP. You might find a situation where the dems become everyone’s second⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchoice because they are firmly in the Center and it would show just how unprogressive they really are (or at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleast how they appear to be to an international audience)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt still blows my brain that there isn’t wide spread single payer/NHS style health care in the richest⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcountry in the world.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd don’t get us started on gun control, I’ve travelled to dozens of countries around the world and nowhere⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave I felt less safe than SF/Buffalo/NY/Miami/Jackson.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mookblah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe frustration I have is that some conservatives won't even agree to that framing. It wasn't they were⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchoosing policy over character, it's that they see nothing wrong with his character. I've had many arguments⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mw/ conservative friends because they think he's just been treated unfairly or "everyone has faults", then⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpoint to character flaws of other candidates. I mean, I understand it, but just a gross false equivalency.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn the end it's their opinion and mine.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhintymad[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI guess it really depends on people's preferences on issues. It turned out more people hated Trump as a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpresident than liking his presidency, and Trump supporters should accept such choice.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI weigh more on the culture side, and I'm abhorred that institutions can blatantly teach racism like critical⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrace theory, which discriminates an entire race. I don't believe ACAB. I'm disgusted that Pelosi thinks that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpeople can topple statues if they want, and AOC says "Is anyone archiving these Trump sycophants for when⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey try to downplay or deny their complicity in the future? ", and the media kept spreading hoaxes like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"fine people on both sides". I certainly don't agree that different political views should be moralized.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWell, none that that matters now, I guess. American people have decided that left view is what they want, and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwe should respect and accept the decision.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mljm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not from the US, and I'm happy with how the election has turned out, but I agree for similar reasons.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was telling my friend the other day, why is it that the presidency is a competition between retiree⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgeriatrics of the same generation? Biden and Trump have 4 years difference in age. Where's the representation⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor people significantly younger than post-retirement age? Even Bernie Sanders, a favourite, is hitting his⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlatter years, and it seems the Democrat candidate is just chosen by the DNC rather than what their voter base⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould like.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo, it's great news that Trump avoids a second term, but I don't see a progression in the political system⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myet.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msaalweachter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI was telling my friend the other day, why is it that the presidency is a competition between retiree[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mgeriatrics of the same generation?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI mean, I'm not thrilled it turned out that way this election, but that's not really the rule for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPresidential elections; Carter, Clinton, Bush II, and Obama were 52, 46, 54 and 47 when elected.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mnobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOkay, I did, so you can't say that anymore. I didn't vote for him in the primary, but I voted for him in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgeneral. There's good stuff here:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mjoebiden.com/joes-vision/[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe's a centrist. I expect him to be right in the middle of the Democratic party. It's not as bold as I would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlike in some places and has things I don't like in others, but it's progress. It's substantive policy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproposals to try to make headway on climate change, healthcare, covid19, jobs, and on and on.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrytor718[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAgree with you, but completely understand the original comment. Its true that, similar to previous⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0melections, people aren't voting For. They're voting against.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat said, the reason Biden, despite his substantive proposals, isn't well-liked by Dems is because there⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseems to be broad disappointment with the Democratic party's failure to nominate and elect someone who [3mis[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrepresentative of the future we all want. There's a comment in this thread to the tune of "why are only 70⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myear old men running and winning the presidency in the USA" today. Indeed — there's so much political⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfailure in our government across the board that it's hard to believe in Biden and the party.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfl0wenol[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't trust Biden any further than I can throw him, but he is a known devil who is under scrutiny for his⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mneoliberal legislative history. It was a smart move to veep Harris.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn a way his tough on drugs/crime history was necessary to pull in the hand-wringing boomers and fingers⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcrossed he's flip flopped there and wants to be the cool grandpa who gets to legalize it before he croaks as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis legacy or whatever.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm paraphrasing and streamlining several people's opinions on the matter here.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwhateveracct[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden has already said the crime bill was a mistake. In his final town hall (that was a debate substitute)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0miirc⁣
  ⁣
   [1mInTheArena[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe need to reform the system so that people feel like they can afford not to be tribal. Key to this is the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munbalanced wildcard that is the United States Supreme Court. While the Supreme Court has the ability to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbasically make any law or any decision no matter how flimsy the textual language support, the United States⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis not a democracy, it’s a dictatorship. without that fear of what a court could and would do, Trump would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave never won his first campaign.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI always hope that some moderate politician will come along in deemphasize the power of the bases. A strongly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpro environment Republican, or a true honest pro life Democrat. Unfortunately what we’ve seen, and continue⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto see in this election is at the wings in each party are all powerful.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe need to rebuild institutions that have been shaped by decades of imperial President rule. I agree with the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchaos engineering example that was given earlier. We now know what part of the system don’t scale. Something⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat we cannot permit if we want to continue having a democracy is presidents acting like they can ignore⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlaw, make appointments were not in recess, pass executive orders with the force of law. We also need to stop⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mexcusing his behavior because of parties and links. Obama gave trump the weapons that he used in office with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0ma national Labour relations Board debacle and his immigration orders. Trump orders were simply the flipside⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof that coin.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s time to re-factor America. we may want to consider going as far as making the presidency more of a Prime⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMinister role, as opposed to an independent position. The country and the stakes are now so high that we⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcannot afford to have another Donald Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mardy42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI always hope that some moderate politician will come along in deemphasize the power of the bases. A[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mstrongly pro environment Republican, or a true honest pro life Democrat. Unfortunately what we’ve seen,[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mand continue to see in this election is at the wings in each party are all powerful.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMe too. When I was a kid, I lived in a conservative farm state whose federal representation was 100%⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDemocratic (just like most of its neighbors). Things just seem a lot more dysfunctional now, because the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolarized conformity doesn't allow for enough heterodox party members who can help forge compromise on⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0missues that actually have broad support.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIMHO, what the country really needs is a truce in the culture wars, and forget this winner-take-all battle⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfor countrywide conformity.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msova[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mScore Voting is the solution — give candidates a score from 0-99 and take the highest average score. Works⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mgreat to decide Olympian Gold/Silver/Bronze medalists. Plus, no vote is wasted, and bicameralism is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtranscended.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnotSupplied[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mScore voting results in tactical voting where only the most extreme scores are given, instead of revealing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheir "true preferences" on a grayscale. In fact, those who provide honest scores are disadvantaged, because⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe deciding-power of their vote would be lower than those who purposely exaggerate their scores to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mextremes!⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt works in situations where there are few voters and their votes are all publicly visible.⁣
  ⁣
    [1myyyk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mScore voting will increase polarization to levels unseen even in 2020 America, for no practical benefit over⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mapproval voting.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mScore's tactical logic leads to most voters giving the extreme scores to every candidate, and psychology⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmeans all these voters will end up justifying it to themselves - leading to extreme polarization when the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlosing side is convinced the winner has no redeeming qualities whatsoever. The last presidential term showed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhat happens than, now repeat that for [3mall[0m levels of government [3mall[0m the time.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWorst of all, some very few people will actually give partial scores. Why is that bad? Well, what's the most⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcommon way to calculate scores [3mtoday[0m? There are various single-issue and ideological organizations which put⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mout scores measuring representatives. Just about all these organizations represent absolutist POVs⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mregarding their single issue or ideology (e.g. the NRA has a score for every representative). So to get a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhigh score, representatives are pushed to extremes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1melihu[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah, that (or approval voting, or STAR) would be a good system in a primary.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn the general election, using plain score voting is a bit dangerous; if you consider a Trump vs Clinton⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrace where all the Trump voters give him a ten out of ten, and most of the Clinton voters give her a six or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mseven, then Trump wins by a bigger margin than he did in 2016. (STAR fixes this with an immediate runoff of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe top two after maximalizing everyone's vote.) But in a primary election, it might be good to get the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandidate with the most enthusiasm behind them.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mOne difficulty in implementing something like this for the Democratic primary is that it isn't very⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcompatible with the delegate system. Maybe that's not entirely a bad thing and delegates should be done away⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwith, but sometimes it's good to have a group of people at the convention who can make decisions if⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msomething unexpected happens to one of the candidates.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou could have individual states adopt different voting systems for their primaries and just use them to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mallocate delegates. For instance, instead of allocating delegates proportionally to anyone with more than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m15% of the vote using first-past-the-post ballots like we do now, allocate delegates proportional to their⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandidate's total score, perhaps with some cut-off (like, no delegates awarded if your score average is less⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthan 4 out of 10) or a rule that only the top N candidates are awarded delegates.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpstch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs the ballot for olympian medalists public ?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat are the incentives for someone not to vote 99 for the candidate he wants to win, and 0 for all others ?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msimonbarker87[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSingle transferable vote is significantly better, 0-99 and everyone would just give the “least worst option”⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m99⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnullsense[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'd score Trump a zero.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwatwut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mShe still got quite a lot of votes.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think that what people don't want to admit is that Trump is what half of America wants. He is the right⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mkind of masculine man and has all the right approaches.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mCJefferson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think this is down to your bubble. I know quite a few people who want Biden, and said they would have voted⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor Trump again over Sanders (who was the most notably discussed other person). I know a bunch more people⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho are as you describe of course.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbaumandm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHad the Democrats put up anyone who was less divisive than Hillary Clinton then we are not where we are[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtoday.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFun fact I recently learned, but a 2013 Quinnipiac University poll found Hillary Clinton to be the most⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpopular US politician with 61% approval.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was shocked when I learned this, but it makes me wonder if the idea that Clinton is broadly unpopular is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmostly just a meme?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-clinton-idUS…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mRedBeetDeadpool[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat I disliked so much about this election was that I believed based purely on policies drafted by both⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparties, that the democrats did not bring anything better to the table than what republicans did, and this is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0magainst a party that spent billions and counting building a wall that will basically not work as advertised.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat Trump got right and why he won against Hillary back in 2016 is that US is on the brink of losing its⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhegemony. Nationalistic Americans flocked to his appeals to close off borders, to renegotiate trade deals,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mback out of agreements that hurt the US, and promise bringing manufacturing back into our borders.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden is a career politician so he knows how to say all the right words to appeal to as many people as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpossible, but where those words fail is in their over-promise in that the sum of policies put forth simply⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdon't add up. Not that trump hasn't made promises he couldn't keep, but he has taken and put into motion a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlot of things that represent a very nationalistic ideology.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPersonally I think that even with the dysfunctional pathologically lying brain that Trump had, he was on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mside with the better economic playbook. Regardless of what one may think about him, Trump is the one with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbusiness experience, and Biden is the one with political experience. And as much as I would love to believe⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat we live in a world where we can make allies, and negotiate, and hand out financial aid, and work⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtogether to green the earth, the reality is we live in a Corporatocracy, and that even Biden came to power by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mits merits.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI was very much on the fence. Lets just say I wasn't feeling very positive about the next four years even⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbefore the election was called.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgrego[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI can be argued that Trump inherited the good economy from Obama. But there is so much more to life than⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjust economy.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mevgen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump's only business experience is in running them into the ground. He is horrible at business and even⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mworse at understanding the sort of macro-economics you would hope that a president might know a little⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msomething about. His pathetically short attention span is probably the only thing that kept him from doing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmore long-term damage.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mansible[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m… Trump had, he was on the side with the better economic playbook.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAh, yes, the "fiscally conservative" move to give permanent tax cuts to billionaires, while giving small,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtemporary tax cuts to everyone else. And without a plan to cut spending.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mTrump is the one with business experience, …[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m45 has experience… losing money. A lot. And having his businesses going bankrupt, several times. The next⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbankruptcy will be interesting, as he is personally on the hook for $400M USD.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmaerF0x0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe need better candidates who generate real support and appeal other than just not being their opponent.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mNot sure how to get there.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIMO the democrats did themselves a big disservice by having such popular alternatives to both trump _and_⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbiden.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meg: yang was popular, sanders was popular, harris was popular. People wanted their candidate to be running⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor president, and were left with re-evaluating who they'd vote for (trump or biden) when their favorite was⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcut.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI really think the presidential election needs the following reforms:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mElectoral votes map to popular vote in each state.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRunoff voting allowing parties to run multiple candidates without fearing the dilution of a "leader" (eg One⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcould have voted "Yang, Sanders, Harris, Biden" and still be generally assured their vote benefitted their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparty.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMinor parties such as green + libertarian need to be invited to debates.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mAtlasBarfed[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemographics show that whites really really really like Trump, and everyone else doesn't. Which mirrors the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrhetoric of Trump I (hope) any rational person can agree.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn the case of such polarized racial politics, the Democrats needed a white male to try to not further⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minflame the white base and pick off as many white voters as possible. That left a nonrepresentative candidate⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor the almost-majority minority "everyone else".⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRacial politics have underpinned presidential elections since… well, slavery. This one was no different, it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjust had the sad spectacle of overt racism rather than at least SOME window dressing overlaid on the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"Southern Strategy" since the civil rights era.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfabianhjr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2millustrates, is what a poor set of choices we have had.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe need better candidates who generate real support and appeal other than just not being their opponent.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mNot sure how to get there.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is in great part due to First Past The Post voting method[[31m1[0m] employed. The US isn't interested in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdemocracy if they can't at least move from FPTP to something at least as good as Approval Voting. (Which is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mone of the simplest alternatives)⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSome criterions FPTP does no meet from Wikipedia[[31m1[0m][[33m2[0m]:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m1. Mutual Majority Criterion: if a majority (more than 50%) of voters top-rank some k candidates, then one of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthose k candidates must win.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2. Condorcet Winner Criterion: if a candidate would win a head-to-head competition against every other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate, then that candidate must win the overall election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m3. Condorcet Loser Criterion: if a candidate would lose a head-to-head competition against every other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate, then that candidate must not win the overall election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m4. Independence of Irrelevant Alternatives Criterion: the election outcome remains the same even if a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate who cannot win decides to run.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m5. Independence of Clones Alternatives Criterion: the election outcome remains the same even if an identical⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate who is equally-preferred decides to run.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m6. No favorite betrayal: Can voters be sure that they do not need to rank any other candidate above their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfavorite in order to obtain a result they prefer?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt least consider how 2, 4, and 6 affect alternatives like Howie Hawkins, Bernie Sanders, or Gloria la Riva⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto name some examples. I find it hypocritical when US government officials criticize 1-party states when the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUS is a 2-party state and as if that was a big qualitative difference.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[31m1[0m]: [34mwww.wikiwand.com/en/First-past-the-post_voting#/Effe…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[33m2[0m]: [34mwww.wikiwand.com/en/Comparison_of_electoral_systems#…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mopportune[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI have a theory that non-progressive Democratic voters are so concerned with candidates' perceived⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"electability" that they're repeatedly picking unexciting candidates who end up being less electable. The⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocratic party needs to focus on increasing turnout (a potentially huge pool of new voters) rather than⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mswaying an extra 2-4% of consistent moderate voters over, IMO.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRepublican voters don't seem to have the same problem. I mean, Trump was probably the least "electable"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate of all time. But he got a lot of people excited about voting.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgrumple[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA prominent propaganda outlet had been slandering Clinton for decades, including 20+ politically guided⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhearings over an issue caused by the opposition party and an outrageous politically motivated investigation⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mby a supposedly impartial law enforcement agency.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo compare Clinton, who had been a senator and Secretary of State, and cast her as a bad choice compared to a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbillionaire heir and reality tv star who had no experience is sort of absurd. Politics is a popularity⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcontest and heavily influenced by media and irrational thoughts and behavior.⁣
  ⁣
   [1makudha[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne of the biggest problems we have today is lack of good leaders. Not just in politics but in business and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mother fields.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAmong those holding highest office across the planet - how many can you name that you genuinely love and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrespect? Maybe a handful? In a sane world, how can people like Trump, Bolsanaro, Duterte etc hold the highest⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moffice in their countries?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBusiness world isn’t that great either.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSomehow we have reached a situation where it is getting harder to find good leaders⁣
  ⁣
    [1mRed_Leaves_Flyy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSimple fact is one person is incapable of directing millions. Forget about hundreds of millions.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdiscreteevent[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaterialism. The culture gets what it values.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmancerayder[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe journalists Matt Taibbi and Glenn Greenwald talk about this a lot: the question of what happened with⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mClinton's loss, why Trump, why these shocks and why the persistent support.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe argument would be that there's a strong elitism that manifested in the Democratic Party, which abandoned⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msome of its core Progressive principles with things like NAFTA (and the never-ending wars). H. Clinton echoed⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthis, with a haughty campaign that called people she should be wooing 'deplorables,' skipping campaigning in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mkey battleground states, and blaming sexism for some of her campaign failures ("it's about me") instead of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mself-reflection ("How could I have had broader appeal.") Even today you'll often find people reminding you⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat Trump appeals to people without college degrees. Outside of a pure data context, saying that over and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mover again suggests that somehow people with degrees are better capable of selecting the leaders of everyone,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhich is an extremely elitist perspective. So Trump comes along, attacks NAFTA and free trade, speaks⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mplainly and so forth.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWas he making false promises about returning jobs overseas, helping workers and other Sanders talking points?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAbsolutely. But the self-reflection that needs to happen here (given the loss of two dozen House seats and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnumerous local upsets) is, what are we doing wrong, here.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTo wit:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mExit polls, which can be unreliable, pegged his national support at 32%-35% of the Latino vote. More[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mtellingly were results in certain counties. Starr County, Texas, the county with the highest percentage of[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mHispanic or Latino voters — above 95% — voted for Hillary Clinton by a 60-point margin in 2016, but gave[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mBiden just a five point win in 2020.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mEven more amazing was Trump’s performance among Black voters. The man whose 2016 message to “the blacks” was[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mvery nearly a parody of long-ago New York mayoral candidate Mario Procaccino’s pledge that “My heart is as[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mblack as yours” must have found a new way to connect. Trump doubled his support with Black women, moving from[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m4% in 2016 to 8%, while upping his support among Black men from 13% to 18%. Remember, this was after four[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3myears of near-constant denunciations of Trump as not just a racist, but the leader of a literal white[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3msupremacist movement:[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m[…][0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mTrump’s numbers with the LGBTQ community were a stunner also, jumping from 14% to 28%. In September, a dating[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mapp for queer men called Hornet ran a survey that showed 45% support for Trump among gay men. Ever since[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mTrump jumped into politics, media observers have rushed to denounce any Trump-related data that conflicts[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mwith conventional wisdom, and the Hornet survey was no different. Out magazine quoted a communications[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mprofessor from Cal Poly Pomona as saying, “To tout a Hornet poll as evidence of LGBTQ support for Trump is[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mclickbaity, sloppy journalism.” Even the Hornet editor scoffed at his own poll, before it all turned out to[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mbe true in the election.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3m[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mTrump even improved his standing among white women, 53% of whom were already pilloried in 2016 for voting for[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3ma man who bragged about how you “grab ‘em by the pussy, you can do anything.”[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(Matt Taibbi, Which is the Real "Working Class Party" Now?, Nov 2020)⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhenrikschroder[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mOutside of a pure data context, saying that over and over again suggests that somehow people with degrees[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mare better capable of selecting the leaders of everyone, which is an extremely elitist perspective.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you're educated, if you're middle class, like most people here, you want a president - any politician⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreally - to be better than you. You want people smarter than you running the country, because you understand⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat governing is a boring job that requires skill.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut the second job of the president is to be a role model, to be a good example. And if the president is too⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgood, too perfect, too clean, there's a bunch of people who are going to feel alienated or inferior. And⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat turns into resentment and hate.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo then Trump comes along. A sexist, racist, buffoon who ignores political correctness. And for a lot of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpeople, having him as a role model makes it easier to keep up, to compare yourself. "He says it like it is",⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthey say. His terribleness gives them permission to be equally terrible. If the president can grab women by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe pussy, [3mthey[0m can grab women by the pussy.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't know if splitting the Head of State from Chief Executive would help solve it, a lot of other⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcountries have split the role, it's not like they have to go together. But it's clear that the [3mgoverning[0m job⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas to be moved away from the idiotic popularity contest that is the presidential election so that we can⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mensure we get people capable of governing in the role.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mm0zg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe DNC had at least _half a dozen_ better candidates this time. They had better candidates last time, too.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's just that the establishment wants to be in control, so they put Biden in (and Clinton last time). If⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat's not obvious, I don't know what to tell you. The GOP establishment tried that too, with Trump, but⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey're less organized, so Trump tore them up pretty easily due to his unorthodox campaigning.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkarmasimida[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot US citizen but currently resides here.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think Biden prevails on one thing: the public don't believe Trump will contain COVID.⁣
  ⁣
   [1myyyk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHad the Democrats put up anyone who was less divisive than Hillary Clinton then we are not where we are[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mtoday.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSanders would have lost too, once Trump begun to paint him as a socialist commie. Oddly, O'Malley would have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwon easily.⁣
  ⁣
   [1makhilcacharya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe final popular vote is going to match Bidens favorables at around 52%. This was not a "poor set of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mchoices", this is a pretty decisive victory.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbeamatronic[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI voted for Kamala⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjollofricepeas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe problem is that even if you had “better”, the majority of voters wouldn’t vote for “better candidates.”⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mVoters like users of a software application are hostile, irrational and often unqualified to use the system.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe question is what will we do and how will we improve our form of government now that the stress test of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump’s presidency is over?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do we make a more perfect union in the face of often uninformed, unqualified voters?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow do we really ensure that our officials are ethical and responsible individuals seeking to serve?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI have no clue.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mloco5niner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAgreed. This is why we need to push voting in the [3mprimaries[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpolynomial[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI've had people literally tell me they didn't care if it was Hitler, they would vote for him over Trump.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd they're weren't making a joke, they were dead serious.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkybernetikos[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou'll find people to say stupid stuff in support of nearly any position. Try not to let it affect your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mviews too much.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m2020election[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAgreed. Have not met a single person who despised Trump who didn’t feel disgusted after seeing this⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcompilation of Biden: [34mjoebiden.info/[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmandeepj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou missing a big point from 2016. Hillary lost due to social engineering hack behind that election. Social⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmedia cos were better prepared this time⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtuna-piano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDownvoted because in 2016 there was a "social engineering hack" and Trump received 63 million votes. In 2020⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI haven't seen much evidence of that and Donald Trump received at least 70 million votes. He's a popular guy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mamong a very significant percentage of the population… like it or not.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mandrewzah[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHillary lost due to being an extremely unlikable candidate. In addition, she faced a charismatic and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcontroversial wildcard candidate who promised to shake up the system in a time where people were sick of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcareer politicians.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd a portion of dem voters were pissed off about how Sanders was treated by the DNC, though I have no idea⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mif that caused any meaningful portion to abstain or vote for Trump.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mesalman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLikewise this time around, nobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDid you talk to the black voters in Clayton county, Atlanta or Philadelphia? Because it was them who put⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden over the line and put the election results beyond doubt.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msetr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat? Every vote put biden over the line, those just happened to be the last counted (to declare a victor) —⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand has nothing to do with how strongly they felt about Biden⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtracer4201[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mLikewise this time around, nobody I have talked to seriously voted for Joe Biden on his own merits.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI voted for Biden because although I didn't always agree with Team Obama/Biden, they weren't 10% as divisive⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mas Donald Trump.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnecdotes aside, I'd love to see any real data you have on this topic.⁣
  ⁣
    [1makhilcacharya[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI for one love both Joe and HRC as inspiring figures and would have voted for them even if the other⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcandidate was not a bigoted wannabe authoritarian.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mnso95[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI don't care if you're liberal or conservative. The problem with Trump is that all of his success has come
  [0mfrom lying, cheating, and manipulation. That's all he knows. This was never a simple matter of political
  [0mdifferences. This was not normal.

                                                   [1m▶ 25 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 25 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mblub[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt looks to me like so many are bothered by Trump because he didn't wrap all the lying and cheating and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmanipulation in a likeable, family-friendly public persona, like the presidents of the past did. He certainly⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msaid a lot of outrageous or false things, but policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo many of you want to desperately believe that the abnormal situation in the US can be pinned on one man and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat once he's gone everything will go back to normal, or if not the situation will normalize to a certain⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mextent. That just doesn't seem possible.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump is just the convenient scapegoat for the disastrous globalisation which hollowed out American industry,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor the race but especially class conflicts which were [3mnever[0m really settled and for the ultra-aggressive⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcapitalism which creates many more losers than winners and for the two party system which is fundamentally⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvulnerable to corruption.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrunamok[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mbut policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou don't feel how he handled the Covid pandemic was a bad policy? The guy's vanity wouldn't allow him to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwear a mask to act as a good example to his base. He blatantly ignored most of what his advisors told him⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand proceeded to advocate quack remedies and dubious advice.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI really dislike the trope of "all politicians lie" when discussing Trump. It's the worst kind of "what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabout-ism". I do value a president talking to the American people like we are adults and tell us⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0muncomfortable truths. I think Obama tried that on occasion ands it backfired on him in a major way (comment⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabout those that cling to guns and religion comes to mind).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI do agree with you that it's not solely Trump's fault. The republican party quickly fell into step behind⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhim to get their way above any sort of moral high ground they could have hoped to claim in the past.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrandomsearch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mbut policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not sure if this is permitted by the guidelines. I can prefix perhaps with: I get why a lot of people⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvoted for Trump, and I have sympathy with some of his policies, but I think there _were_ some policy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdecisions that were judged to be horrible, including by NGOs and internationally. Some examples listed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbelow.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not saying other presidents don't made horrible decisions, but I am saying that there seems to be a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtendency to excuse his behaviour by a whataboutism argument, and it's really important to get down in the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdetail, into the facts, and not let Trump's style of politics trickle down to us all.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSeparating children from their parents to deter immigration:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nbcnews.com/news/latino/trump-administration-s-c…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe Travel Ban: [34mwww.amnesty.org.uk/licence-discriminate-trumps-musli…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mScience and medicine cuts: [34mwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5468112/[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAbandoning the kurds: [34mwww.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/10/28/turkey-syria-t…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlol636363[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPolicy wise he probably didn't make any bad decisions. But his words have made it okay to be racist. As a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mminority, I experienced more minor forms of racism in last 4 years than in last 20 years before. He made it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcool to be racist. He made my life slightly more inconvenient. And I am sure if I didn't had high paying job⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI would have suffered more balant racism. Trump is evil human and I am glad he will gone soon enough.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdocbrown[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mbut policy-wise he didn't really make any horrible decisions.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is where the problem lies within our current political discourse: both parties have fundamental⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdifferences within themselves on what they view as being morally on the up-and-up.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBoth parties view certain demographics in their own way and this allows them to engage in policies that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mallow them to accomplish their end goal while never causing harm — because they genuinely believe they are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot causing harm to anyone. They're only following through on policies that match their moral compass.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUntil this country has a reckoning on what its fundamental values should be, there will always be a sense of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdistrust and skepticism between each other.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgrasshopperpurp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think the style of lying is definitely part of it, but I do think the details matter. I was talking with a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump supporter (I held my nose and voted for Biden, as I did for Clinton in 2016). He was pretty heated,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbecause a lady he flirts with at work let him know that she was a hardcore Democrat and that she didn't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthink anyone should vote for Trump. It was toward the end of a long day, so I wasn't sure if I was up for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe conversation, but he's a pretty decent guy, so I engaged, and we had a solid chat.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI made a point that seemed to resonate with him - Biden represents high-level corruption, the kind of slick⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcorruption that maintains stability and is relatively predictable. Trump, though, represents a mob style of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcorruption - or the kind of corruption you see from dictators in developing nations. If it benefits him in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe short-term, and he can do it, he will. Chess vs Checkers. Some people prefer the latter, and it seems⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msome view it as a more honest type of corruption, but for most people, stability is important.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've noticed a lot of Right-leaning people would also like to see some form of ranked voting, so I think⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit's the political parties (both of them) rather than the people holding things back.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think you bring up key issues in your closing paragraph, but the implementation of Globalization is what⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreally hurt the middle class in the US. Whenever people lose a proper balance, they will suffer, and I think⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmost everyone can agree that the US did a particularly poor job of ensuring balance - probably not by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0maccident.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnyway, I feel for people who are troubled by the result of the election. I was in their shoes in 2016, and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI can relate to some of their concerns. If we start from a place of understanding/trying to understand, we⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcan build systems that work for everyone. If we allow the two-party system to perpetuate artificial divides,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprogress will be much slower, and we'll take more false steps. The loudest are typically the worst of us.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe can't fall into the trap of using them as stand-ins for the other side. This was much more ranty than I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mintended, but I hope it makes sense.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnso95[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAccording to Politifact, 72% of Trump's statements they fact checked were at least mostly false. Thats a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhell of a lot worse than your average politician.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtruckerbill[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis track record on the environment is terrible. So is separating families from their children and putting⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthem in cages.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamanaplanacanal[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHow do you deal with any of those issues without being demonized as a socialist? My memory is that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcapitalism and globalization were such a winning platform for the republicans that even the democrats jumped⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon the bandwagon in the 90s. How do we get out of this mess?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mFordec[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnd Trump is the first politician that has lied cheated or manipulated situations to their advantage?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it. And I say that as someone who⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwould have been delighted with Sanders.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrandomsearch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe only thing this time was the politician was incompetently bad at hiding it.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhilst all politicians bend the truth and perhaps most do tell a small number of outright lies, that does⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnot make them comparable to Trump.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump repeatedly lies, contradicting himself - even within minutes of saying one thing, he'll say the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposite. He doesn't even acknowledge the idea that being truthful is important. This has had deadly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mconsequences, for example in his inability to acknowledge the reality of the pandemic.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's not just the lying. The narcism and clownish behaviour has made it impossible to take him seriously,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand that has damaged America's reputation - this does matter, your reputation matters when negotiating and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrying to get things done internationally.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe's also been hateful and offensive towards many individuals and groups. This is bad for social cohesion,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbut moreover our leaders should try to set an example for us to follow, not debase our society.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNote that I'm not arguing for or against his policies here, and I can understand why some people voted for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhim.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMy point is that it's [3mreally[0m important not to normalise his behaviour. That way lies tyranny.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcarapace[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you really believe that all politicians are like Donald Trump just better at hiding it?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwatwut[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI really do think the amount of lying and cheating was significantly higher.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPlus, he was not bad at hiding it. He had seen lying as being smart, something to be proud of. Significant⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpart of those who like him to - for them the lies were clever way to own the libtards.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGibbon1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf Trump had governed like say Gov Chris Christie he'd likely have won this election.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnjanirudh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is wrong on so many levels. Obama continued the war and killed thousands of innocent people, did nothing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor blacks in his 8 years term but he is the baton of morality⁣
  ⁣
    [1mMagnumOpus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo you would have preferred if Obama left bin Laden alone, and if he let ISIS expand all over the middle⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEast.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo you would have just complained about that. Let's face it, you voted to make your country a global⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlaughing stock in order 5o get a $5 tax cut every year.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgear54rus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m48 laws of power opening certainly suggests so.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcarapace[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"48 laws of power" was a book for fools though. "Leadership Secrets of Attila the Hun" was better. (And "The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPrince" more principled!)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhat if everyone does it but he's just bad at it and that's why we notice.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSeriously though, do you really believe that or are you just trolling?⁣
  ⁣
   [1moleg131[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's not true. He restored stock market levels which is a success, and he didn't lie or cheat to do that.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbendmorris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPresidents seem to get a lot of, sometimes undeserved, credit for the economy when they were President.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBesides inherit a strong and growing economy, what specifically did Trump do to deserve credit for the stock⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmarket growth under him? And conversely, does he deserve partial or full credit for the impact of covid-19⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(and his slow response to it) on the economy at the end of his term?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtempestn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'd have to at least partially disagree with both parts of that statement. The president can only do so much⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto influence the stock market. A lot of how it goes is due to the state of the economy that is inherited⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhen they gain office. That said, the Trump tax cuts and dismantling of environmental and fiscal regulation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mprobably did help the stock market (not to say I necessarily agree with those moves). However, I would⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdefinitely argue that much of his lying [3mwas[0m in service of propping up the stock market, some of it likely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msuccessful. Downplaying the severity of the pandemic would be the latest and most obvious example, but there⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mare many others.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mheavyset_go[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mStocks hit all-time highs in 2013 and every year since.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmellow-lake-day[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou can make an argument that he decreased taxes for the richest of the rich to do that. I don't think that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mis a cause worth celebrating. Not to mention that stock market levels don't translate to a good economy or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgood paying jobs for people. We can see that in the past months, where the stock market was doing well but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meconomy not so much.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoering2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat? He asked Federal Reserve to keep buying everything ob lnstock market with newly printed money. Thats⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhow it went up, by also weakening dollar all around the world. Its another scam.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmypalmike[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe you should look at the data.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbluejay2387[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI don't understand why this is flagged. It's highly relevant to tech (particularly given trump's moves on
  [0mChinese tech firms and his treatment of social media) and from a legitimate source.

                                                   [1m▶ 9 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 9 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mfinallyhappened[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMost biden wins and supporting comments are getting downvoted. Just keep an eye and you will understand the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtypes that moderate the forum.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEveryone who feels strongly on a topic always feels that way. The opposite types think the mods are the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mopposite opposite types.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mhn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mhn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mhn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthekyle[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah, I'm not sure, the one from 2016 where Donald Trump won had a very nice discussion on it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1matomi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt wasn't flagged.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=12909752[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwl[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHeadline is inaccurate. He's not president elect until a joint session of congress counts the certificates of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvotes from the electoral college and declares him as such.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYeah, Biden likely will be president elect. But the news media's call of what they think is likely is in no⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mway official.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEdit: When I wrote this, the headline was along the lines of "Joe Biden is President-Elect."⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbriandear[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTechnically it’s false because one doesn’t become President-Elect until vote counts are officially certified.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjeffbee[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo, one becomes the president elect after the electoral college votes, which is still a month away.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mkarmicthreat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYea, but we've always referred to them as president elect once it's obvious they will win.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhandmodel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden will now begin to receive intelligence briefings. He is the President-Elect (which is not a legal term⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m- it is a media one - so it is silly to insist your definition is correct)⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mscrollaway[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDirect link: [34medition.cnn.com/politics/live-news/trump-biden-elect…[0m
  [0m
  [0mAlso called by ABC, NBC and the AP ([34mtwitter.com/AP/status/1325112826072084480[0m). Congratulations, America.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtertiary[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe thing that will sit deep within me for at least the next few years is that, no matter how you slice it, a
  [0mvote for Trump is complicit acceptance of his divisive and harmful behavior. Of course you don't need to be a
  [0mracist to vote for Trump, but you do need to fear the other options so much that you agree that his behavior
  [0mand the way that he represents our country to the rest of the world is tolerable compared to what might come
  [0mafter him.
  [0m
  [0mI was on the phone with my mom earlier and one of her friends called her up. She's a republican, but they
  [0mavoid politics. She asked her, genuinely afraid, if she thought that Harris would steal the presidency and
  [0mconvert the country to socialism. She's not an idiot. She's a physician, but was still so caught up in fear
  [0mmongering that she genuinely believed that the government would steal her income and that there would be riots
  [0min the streets as we turn into a third world nation. I'm going to think about her differently after hearing
  [0mthat.
  [0m
  [0mThis is probably the first time in my life where I am going to look at people differently based on who they
  [0mvoted for and I hate that. However, I can't get it out of my head that they voted for a president that has so
  [0mdisgraced the highest office in our country and that they did it because of a fear of the future burning so
  [0mfar inside them that they felt another four years of Trump was preferable to even as bland of a change as a
  [0mBiden presidency will be.

                                                   [1m▶ 15 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 15 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpc2g4d[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you feel that way it may be a sign that you are too far into your own "filter bubble". I'm not saying⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthose views are reasonable, but they are easier to contemplate if you swim in a sea of right-wing viewpoints,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msome of which actually make some sense. Read Fox News, The Federalist, etc., hangout on r/Conservative,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfollow the YouTube right-wing rabbit-hole a ways, and you will be really pissed off but probably have a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbetter sense for how people can get sucked into that kind of worldview. My experience is that it takes⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconstant effort to avoid capture by the "default" left-leaning viewpoint that comes through most mainstream⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnews sources. I live in a place where I am exposed to the Trump viewpoint only rarely, and I found myself⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0maghast at some friends who said they were thinking about voting for Trump. But when they explained their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreasons for it, it was clear we weighed the importance of things differently, but their reasoning made a lot⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof sense. But my initial reaction had been outright rejection, like an immune system fighting an invader.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgrey-area[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo, your answer to someone feeling distaste for fascists and racists is they just aren't immersed enough in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe fascist worldview to feel sympathy for it?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcmorgan31[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIsn't Fox literally the largest cable provider of news in the usa and has been for decades? What is more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmain stream?⁣
  ⁣
   [1maazaa[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe thing that will sit deep within me for at least the next few years is that, no matter how you slice it,[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3ma vote for Trump is complicit acceptance of his divisive and harmful behavior. …[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow many Biden voters would approve of his full-throated support for the Iran and Iraq wars? How many support⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis current stance against Medicare for All? How many would defend the Obama administration's escalation of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe Drone Wars (assuming they're even aware it's going on)?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe bigger question here is how many Americans were voting for the the least terrible option?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgpanders[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe general antipathy toward Trump though is not based on policy grounds, but rather his whole way of being.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHis casual disregard for truth and flagrant mendacity, his blinding narcissism, his disdain for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0minternational cooperation, etc.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEven if, as a progressive, you find Biden milquetoast and uninspiring, he at least isn’t an embarrassment to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe office and to the country.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mntsplnkv2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI expect my leader to do what he thinks is best for the country. I don't expect them to be perfect. Obama⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwasn't. George wasn't. Clinton wasn't. McCain and Romney wouldn't have been.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut I never doubted for a second that they weren't trying to do their best. Trump, I did, and that's why I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mvoted against him.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdjsumdog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI was. I knew none of the other issues mattered. The only thing I cared about was war, and Trump was the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfirst anti-war president. Even then, he didn't reduce drone strikes, but he greatly lowered America's war⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfootprint. I wrote about it here:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mbattlepenguin.com/politics/who-will-lead-us-from-war…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mthrowaway583[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFrom what I read Trump’s has many character flaws. That’s an understatement.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe is, however, one of the few presidents in the past century, to have avoided starting a new war.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden has a record of participating in a government that supported intervention in Syria and Ukraine, and his⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfamily benefiting from it, (whether legitimately or not is not my concern).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor this reason I have reluctantly preferred Trump to Biden.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat do I do now, how would I continue to participate in a society full of people who think and feel like⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myou?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mihunter2839[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA few quick thoughts…⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCan you provide an instance where Trump's individual action prevented a military engagement or war that was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactively lobbied for by leading Republican figures?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt seems unlikely for a President to start a military engagement without the support of their closest⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolitical allies and constituents. So it would seem that blame for previous wars should fall across both⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCongress and the President, and you can no doubt agree that many of the same Republicans (and Democrats) are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min the same seats that they were then.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnetsharc[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRemember the little game of chicken and insults over Twitter with Kim Jong Un, that ended up with Donald⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump giving everything Kim Jong Un wanted, because he's an artist of "the deal"? (Trump did get a lovely⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mletter in a giant envelope and swooned about it, remember?)⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHow do you only worry about what you read about Biden and his record on wars, where you even bloody admit⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat you're not really concerned about "his family benefiting from it", and IGNORE everything else that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mshould worry you? Like a denial of the reality of the actual virus killing Americans (1 website says at the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmoment more than 243000 dead, that's like having a 9/11 number of deaths, followed by a 9/12, a 9/13, with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtwo towers and 4 planes crashing every day all the way past Thanksgiving, with the latest being 2 more⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mplanes smashing into 2 more WTC-sized towers on a 12/1/2001…).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLet me try to answer why I think that is: you like Trump, for whatever reason (maybe you're racist, maybe⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myou're brainwashed by Fox to think Biden is the devil), and you looked for a justification for liking him,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand you found one when you read about him "profiteering from war". Good enough for you, everything else is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mirrelevant.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrattray[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWow. I'm used to the idea of republican physicians, but one who'd genuinely believe in a VP plot to steal the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpresidency to establish socialism is… surprising and scary.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhere do you think she got the ideas? Fox? Other media outlets? Or does the sewer link into social media have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0man unknown source?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mtcbawo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPhysicians are just people like everyone else. In fact, many of them are far more concentrated in terms of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meducation, social circle, and free time. Smart people are very good at coming up with rationalizations and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mjustifications for the things they believe or fear. We think we're better than generations past, but human⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnature is human nature.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mlizardking[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou’re going to think less of people because of the extremely uncharitable rationale you imagine they must⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhave. Great.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYour own mother notwithstanding,it’s almost certainly the case that not everybody who voted for Trump did it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbecause of “a fear of the future” at least not anymore than anybody else who votes against any other⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcandidate.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mTrasmatta[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThank god.
  [0m
  [0mNow I want the last 4 years of my life back.

                                                   [1m▶ 12 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 12 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mThrowawayR2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI am sad to say that it is likely not over; the people who voted for Trump didn't wink out of existence. The⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDemocrats barely won the presidency and lost ground in Congress. It's really a tremendous slap in the face⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor them by the public, given how unfit his opponent and those who aligned with him were.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThings could easily flip the other way in 2024, particularly if the economy goes south as it's been projected⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto do in 2021.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdane-pgp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mparticularly if the economy goes south as it's been projected to do in 2021.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"As you know, we've inherited quite a budget crunch from President Trump." — Lisa Simpson⁣
  ⁣
    [1msarabad2021[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mthe people who voted for Trump didn't wink out of existence[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m… yet. Don't worry Michael Simon is making a list. thetrumpregistry.com⁣
  ⁣
   [1mgiantg2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI doubt the next 4 years will be better.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmythrwy[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI have little doubt they will be worse.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe process isn't over yet (AP News opinion withstanding) but this wasn't really a victory for Democrats at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mall in my opinion assuming the probable happens.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe polls at minimum were very wrong which means either fixed or stupid take your pick.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe are going to see a lot of incidents of shady doings around the election (how could we not?) brought up⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mover the next couple of months.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBiden and team won't really be able to deliver rainbows and ponies and may have to get quite authoritarian⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto quell dissent.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump leaves on a high note with a large amount of support and Republicans made big gains and greatly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexpanded the party.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA whole lot will have to go right for this to be anything like a victory for the Democrats. It almost would⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave been better for them if they let the chips fall and Trump take the rap for what's going down next.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThese 10's of millions of people aren't going anywhere, they'll be even madder next time around and in the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpolls watching like hawks with court sanction. And Trump will be talking the whole time about the injustice⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mand how he was railroaded. Rightly or wrongly people will listen.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mufo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOr 6 years, if you also count the 2016 primaries.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you thought the Trump presidency was bad, wait till you see Trump News or Trump TV.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmasklinn[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou still have to deal with a 6/3 hard-right supreme court, courts packed to the gill with FedSoc pasties,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand most likely (though depending on a GA runoff) the same senate which basically gridlocked Obama's second⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mterm and prepared the grounds for Trump's term.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTrasmatta[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGetting Trump out of office was the number one priority. We can doom about the other stuff later.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmam2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou poor thing.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjansan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou will not get them back, because that is how democracy works. Lots of people will want their last 4 years⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mback in 2024.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mTrasmatta[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo, I won't get them back because that's how time works.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mDevils-Avocado[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNow we can get back to destabilizing the Mideast, offshoring our manufacturing jobs, starting more endless
  [0mwars and transferring the rest of our technology to China. The Trump years were just a speed bump on the way
  [0mto complete globalization.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mabvdasker[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat is your preferred solution to those problems?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mminimaxir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mdang's comment from 4 years ago on this subject (Trump's election win): [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=12910929[0m

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m(We detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017129[0m)⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdisown[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnyone else get weird vibes reading that? If feels like that comment was written yesterday and an eternity⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mago. It's feels like 4 years just passed by in a jiffy but at the same time, it felt like it was the longest⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m4 years of my life.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlol768[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYeah, reading dang's wording again brought back memories of that thread and all the events back then - and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmy general disbelief at the result.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis year in particular has been weird for me for passage-of-time; it feels simultaneously like the pandemic⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas been a constant forever - but also, spring and summer have gone so fast and now it's almost 2021.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mstevespang[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNo worries - - Trump is now VESTED just like Joe Biden will be, and all the decades of American Presidents
  [0mbefore them. Trump will start "collecting" in January .
  [0m
  [0mAll of them grant favors in return for the moolah - - it's just they have to wait until after they get out of
  [0moffice to collect, speeches, book deals, highly questionable but all legal.
  [0m
  [0mActually though, Joe may not make it 4 years, very unlikely, he already has signs of dementia . . .
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mskee0083[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDemocrats = welfare capitalism
  [0m
  [0mRepublicans = neo-feudalism
  [0m
  [0mSo since that's the only choice you get you might as well vote for dems and at least get some food stamps.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1monce-in-a-while[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTrump got 71,000,000 legal votes, most ever for a sitting president.
  [0m
  [0mBiden is the hugest illusion in American politics. You will probably get very angry when the truth comes out
  [0m(in a few weeks), because Trump will (OF COURSE) stay president.
  [0m
  [0mNothing is as it seems. Illusions will go away. Only the Truth will stay forever.
  [0m
  [0mBetter wake up now, The Great Awakening!
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mcharliebrownau[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIf the ' news ' claims something as truth and fact it must be
  [0m
  [0mLets throw out the evidence against Corruption
  [0m
  [0mFake balots
  [0m
  [0mBidens Laptop
  [0m
  [0mBidens pornhub account
  [0m
  [0mBidens crimes overseas with energy firms
  [0m
  [0mand the fact that he is an old corrupt kike
  [0m
  [0mthat forgets and isnt mentally heathly for office
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrichardARPANET[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFact check: False.
  [0m
  [0mThe election process is still ongoing, the media is simply saying Biden is their guess.
  [0m
  [0mAllegations of cheating will be investigated before we get the final result.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1msgt101[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media are saying "It is mathematically impossible for Trump to win without recounts" and in fact we can⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmake a stronger statement - it is [3mhighly[0m unlikely that Trump will win even with recounts given the margins.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo far there is not one story of substantial fraud that looks plausible (let alone probable) and the two⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mclosest that I have found are a data entry error by a polling company (leading to "they suddenly found 100k⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBiden votes" posts all over the alt-right-o-sphere) and a postal worker in Michigan caught on the Canadian⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mboarder with 1k postal items in his truck including three ballots.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrichardARPANET[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHere you go [34mtwitter.com/tedcruz/status/1325495515748950018[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mInteresting people claimed fraud for the last 4 years now claim it's impossible⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe'll find out the truth once every LEGAL vote gets counted in the coming weeks/months.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mp.s. The voting Software company (yes, the one with the "glitches" changing Trump votes to be for Biden),⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhas been linked to Nancy Pelosi.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1maokiji[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe comment section of this thread is a clear example of what the Internet looks like when Chinese Communist
  [0mParty propagandists are unleashed.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mblargmaster42_8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis is the end then, western civilization had s good run! Enjoy your feminist fascism!
  [0m
  [0mDue to demographic there will never be another republican precident.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mblargmaster42_8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mJust institute Voter ID like the rest of the civilized world and this "voter fraud" thing will be solved.
  [0m
  [0mAnd open source the voteing machines.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtamaharbor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat if the election wasn’t fair? That is what worries me the most. We need Voter ID. You even need
  [0mfingerprint ID to vote in Iran.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1monce-in-a-while[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNo he didn't. Wait until mid Dec.
  [0m
  [0mTrump will stay president. He will win both the Senate and the House.
  [0m
  [0mYou folks are so brainwashed, it's almost scary…
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1maokiji[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis comment section is the perfect example of the Chinese Communist Party propaganda arm invading online
  [0mplatforms.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mcortexio[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mtbh the division was created by the democrats (for money). anyway, glad they cant use the "we hate trump" card
  [0manymore. Now they'll have to blame something else for their own hatred. Hopefully it's a mirror this time.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtamaharbor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mEighty thousand votes is neither a “clear victory” nor a “mandate” for anything.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mseek3r[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNot an American citizen, but I’m really glad that Biden won. USA sets an example for other Western countries,
  [0mand Trump wasn’t a good example. I hope you’re able to recover from Trumpism and that the Republican Party
  [0mrejects such violent and authoritarian points of view.
  [0m
  [0mEdit: I’m not saying US citizens should think of other nations when casting their vote. Just glad — as non-US
  [0mcitizen - that Biden won and that our national far-right politicians can finally shut up about Trump

                                                   [1m▶ 21 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 21 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mNacdor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mviolent and authoritarian points of view[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't follow politics too closely, but I keep hearing Trump is the first president who started no new wars.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe also supposedly brokered numerous peace deals and had 4 Nobel Peace Prize nominations.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIs there a lot of violence I'm missing that warrants calling him "violent and authoritarian"?⁣
  ⁣
    [1msfkdjf9j3j[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHey, I would encourage you to follow politics more closely! If you want a broad overview, I would start with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe wikipedia page for Donald Trump. I'd also spend some time reading about media literacy and bias - your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcomment about Nobel Peace Prize nominations stands out as a bit of red flag that you may be uncritically⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrepeating something you heard from a far-right editorial source. Good luck, there's a lot of information to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msynthesize, but this stuff is really important!⁣
  ⁣
    [1mlisper[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI keep hearing Trump is the first president who started no new wars.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDon't believe everything you hear. This is false.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHe also supposedly brokered numerous peace deals[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLike what?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand had 4 Nobel Peace Prize nominations.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs others have noted, this means nothing.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mIs there a lot of violence I'm missing that warrants calling him "violent and authoritarian"?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe violence is largely hypothetical, and would, if it materialized, probably be perpetrated by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhite-supremacist militias rather than the U.S. military. But that Trump is authoritarian there can be no⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreasonable doubt. He has a long record of using his power to fire anyone who speaks against him, to harass⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manyone who speaks against him who he does not have the power to fire, and to protect and grant favors to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manyone who supports him politically, even if they have been convicted of crimes. That kind of behavior is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe textbook definition of authoritarian.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mamf12[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand had 4 Nobel Peace Prize nominations.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFWIW, Nobel Peace Prize nominations are worthless. National level politicians, professors can nominate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0manyone.[[31m1[0m] You could find someone (or three people) to nominate you.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.nobelprize.org/nomination/peace/[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1munethical_ban[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPeace Prize nominations are worthless. Literally, worthless. Anyone can be nominated by anyone.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, the fact that we didn't get into any hot war is pretty much the only thing that Trump has going for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhim, though it was partially due to others backing him off bad ideas.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe wanted to remove us from a South Korean defense agreement, which would have been huge for each country's⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0meconomy and defenses.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe bombed an Iranian general in Iraq - it was a huge gambit of arguable utility, and the only reason the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIranians didn't get more international support for retaliation was because they shot down a civilian⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mairliner on accident.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe talked so much crap to NK that there was serious concern of an escalation in fighting.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut, yes. We didn't have any major foreign-based terror attacks, and we didn't get entangled in fighting a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnew conflict.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs far as the peace deals, I think they could be good, but they haven't "fixed" anything yet. The⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPalestinians still have no sovereignty, the Israelis still deny Arabs rights of citizenship, Iran and SA⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstill are at each other's throats while Yemen, AFAIK, is still a humanitarian crisis.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mChina is perpetrating a holocaust on ethnic minorities, and Trump congratulated Xi on his success there.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe man is no human rights hero.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m---⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0medit: Not to mention his domestic policy failings, his characterizations as sitting president of all who⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdisagree with him as "enemies", his rhetoric around protesting, his encouragement toward violent right-wing⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mactors, and his use of the National Guard to clear out a public square to get a picture taken with a holy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbook he has never read.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mIzkata[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mHe also supposedly brokered numerous peace deals[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNo need for "supposedly": [34mwww.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/president-do…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrhexs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI've always thought that most of the rage came from a dying traditional media quickly realizing they could⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcapitalize on Trump's bombastic style for a critically important advertisement cash injection. Look at⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mviewership of major media properties declining until around 2016. Opinion pieces, designed to induce⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrage-clicks, are vastly more cost effective than actual journalism or just reporting the facts. Plus, for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe average viewer, it's just plain fun to read your "team's" spin on the facts. I'm sure the typical⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mresponse to this is that "the media has always been like this", but I certainly haven't seen a situation⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mquite this extreme in a while.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf you spent all of your time in a bubble reading these opinion pieces from a select group of sources and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mnews aggregators that presumably aggregate the news that is most likely to generate ad impressions/clicks⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(Reddit, Google News seems to push highly inflammatory opinion pieces), sure, I can see how you'd think⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump is some sort of fascist dictator hellbent on destroying the world. The average political junky isn't⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgoing to spend brainpower trying to understand the diametrically opposed.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTo be clear though, most level headed individuals don't actually believe Trump is a fascist. That's an⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mextremist view (and obviously insulting to anyone who has lived under fascism) that's just used to sow⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdiscord and get a reaction.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mASinclair[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoes teargassing protestors for a photo op count as "violent and authoritarian"?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mCyberDildonics[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat war did Jimmy Carter start?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mwishinghand[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRegardless of whether or not he accomplished those things, his outspoken goading of his base and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcomplimenting other authoritarian or authoritarian adjacent rulers on Twitter and other media outlets is a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mclear source on violent and authoritarian points of view.⁣
  ⁣
    [1msg47[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe was busy inciting riots in his own country and calling soldiers suckers and losers. He almost triggered a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m3rd world war by killing Suleimani.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mEricson2314[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mUSA sets an example for other Western countries[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is what we really need to fix.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkrapp[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mUnfortunately, Trump's brand of conspiracy theory populism resonates with a significant number of American⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvoters more so than any other political ideology. Trump was so popular that his base [3mincreased[0m over the last⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfour years. So popular with that base that an actual [3mmessianic cult[0m formed around him. Trump himself just⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwasn't charismatic, competent or forward thinking enough to capitalize on it at scale the way populist⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdictators in other countries have. But that still leaves the danger of a [3mcompetent[0m successor to Trump in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfuture.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat we need to watch for is whether or not the Republican Party interprets this as a repudiation of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrumpism, or merely of Trump himself.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbarumi[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mUnfortunately, Trump's brand of conspiracy theory populism resonates with a significant number of American[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mvoters more so than any other political ideology.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe problem runs deeper than that. Unfortunately Trump's blend of populist rhetoric fueled by conspiracy⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheories, divisiveness, and victimization coupled with a vindictive/authoritarian agenda has seeped out of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe US borders and reverberated in european countries that are now struggling (again) with he rise of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfascist parties.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTake for example Spain's Vox party, which is quite literally a fascist apologist which copies Trump and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mrecently even went as far as claiming that Spain's current government is the worst in 80 years, subtly⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbundling Franco's fascist regime in comparison and thus stating that it was a better alternative than the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcurrent democratic regime.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe free world has a problem with fascism in specific and authoritarian regimes in general, and Trump⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcontributed to whitewash these political movements to the point that they might regain mainstream status⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthroughout the world.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmarban[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhy is this getting downvoted?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.spiegel.de/international/germany/the-u-s-electio…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mAachen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mCare to tell us what you're linking? It's behind some wall (and breaks the back button as well).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmadengr[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mRepublican Party violent? LMAO, it’s the leftists burning stuff down. Trump was doing a good job, as he is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mdespised by both the left and establishment Republicans. Too bad he lost (or subject to fraud).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mrefurb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI agree.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhen I vote I make sure I pick the candidate that other countries would be happy with.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mpvaldes[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhen I vote I make sure I pick the candidate that other countries would be happy with.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs not something that the common voter could control. You will do in the 50% of the cases in fact, just by⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchance.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAnd is great, because deliberately burning all bridges with all your allies and to pee in the curtains just⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto make a vanity statement, is not a productive way to work in a multinational team to obtain your goals.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfoolmeonce[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVery wise, it sucks to end up trapped on an island first politically, then economically and finally⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msocially.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe US understands that stick very well when the topic is its opponents.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mseek3r[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTouché⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1moyra[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mit is symbolic, they declared a victory on november 7th! Congratulation to comrades!
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msunkenvicar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTrump has the edge over Biden
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmewse[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOne candidate supports separating children from their families for certain groups of illegal immigrants, kept
  [0mthose children in cages for some time, and has since lost track of around 500 of them; not reuiniting them
  [0mwith their families. This has all been extensively documented.
  [0m
  [0mAnd approximately seventy million people have voted for that candidate.
  [0m
  [0mOkay, so with all of that in mind, please provide the nuance you want to talk about. I’m very interested in
  [0mthis nuance that you claim will move us away from “crazy extremist”.

                                                   [1m▶ 17 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 17 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcgriswald[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYour post implies that everyone who supports Trump supports that policy. That’s exactly the lack of nuance⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat’s the topic of discussion. People who voted for Trump had two options: Trump and that policy or Biden⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwho they found even more unpalatable. The nuance is there: [3mWhy do they find Biden more unpalatable than that[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mpolicy?[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmewse[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou tell me. If there’s nuance there, then I’m super interested to hear about it. What’s so bad that it⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0moutweighs breaking up families, or any of the other things Trump and his government have done over the past⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfour years?⁣
  ⁣
    [1madamsea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mYour post implies that everyone who supports Trump supports that policy …[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell, everyone who supports Trump decided that those policies are [3mbetter[0m than the alternative.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat could be worse than children in camps is beyond me though …⁣
  ⁣
   [1msagarm[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe family separations policy was applied to asylum seekers. Seeking asylum is an established legal process,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mso 'illegal immigrant' doesn't apply.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfreeone3000[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat's worse, right? You get how that's worse.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdbrueck[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe last thing I want to do is come across as defending Trump, because I didn't vote for him either time and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mam happy to see him go. But your reply is a perfect example of the problem I'm talking about, and it is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpresent on both sides of the equation (i.e. I'm going to point some things out, but please don't read that as⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmeaning that I think this is a problem that only some people on one side participate in - both are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mincredibly guilt of it, generally speaking).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo here goes:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mOne candidate supports separating children from their families[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is objectively false. Nobody "supports" that position at all as a matter of policy - rather you have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moversimplified a complex problem to the point of absurdity. A police officer pulls over a drunk driver and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfinds kids in the car. The driver is arrested. Do the kids go too? No, of course not. Is it correct to say⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat "the police support separating children from their families"? Only in the most technical and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mintentionally misleading sense. Is it their policy to find ways to separate kids from parents? Of course not.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAre there sometimes situations in which the only practical solution is to separate some kids from their⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mparents? Yep!⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mkeeping them in cages[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAgain, nobody "supports" keeping children in cages. (and do keep in mind that these so-called "cages" were⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mused by earlier administrations too) But consider this situation: your country has a standing policy that⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen a refugee comes to your border, instead of turning them away, you let them in, you keep them in a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtemporary facility while you try to go through the legal process of evaluating their asylum claims or⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhatever because your country also has a standing policy that people just can't wander into the country⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0munaccounted for. Most of the time, these two policies can be in harmony, but one day 20k people show up on⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myour doorstep. Policy A says you don't turn them away, policy B says you don't let them loose into the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountry. What do you do? And I'm not talking about what would be the long term ideal, if we have unlimited⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtime and money. I mean what do you do about this problem /today/? You're probably going to scramble and set⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mup some temporary shelter while you get the policymakers to start figuring out a real solution, but you can't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mjust call into existence beds, food, and furnishings.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mand has lost track of 500 of them.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe president obviously doesn't track them to begin with, so Trump obviously didn't lose track of them (any⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmore than the 800,000 who are reported missing each year were personally lost by Trump - see⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.reuters.com/article/us-usa-missing-children/miss…[0m).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI'm not really interested in debating these specific policies, because the larger issue is that you can look⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mat things one of two ways: 1) There are 70 million people who voted for an idiot. By extension, they must be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mterrible to some degree or another too. 2) The solution to any "interesting" problem - especially social⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproblems - involves tradeoffs, conflicting objectives, pros and cons. If the solution really were trivial and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msimple, we wouldn't argue about it. The debate is because it's so complex, and with any really complex⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproblem, you can have very reasonable and intelligent people draw different conclusions on how best to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproceed.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you choose to see the U.S through the lens of #1, you may as well give up now, because it's hopeless -⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthose people are barely people and are separated from you by an insurmountable gulf. OTOH lens #2 is hopeful⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m- you see that ultimately everyone wants pretty much the same high level objectives, the debate is the path⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto get there and how to spend limited resources. With #1, nothing will get done. With #2, potentially⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0meverything is possible.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mJamisonM[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is objectively false. Nobody "supports" that position at all as a matter of policy[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs a matter of policy the Trump administration's position was that making getting caught trying to enter the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mUnited States illegally as painful as possible, including family separations and the risk of losing your⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchildren.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nbcnews.com/politics/immigration/trump-admin-dis…[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt was a literal policy. It is Trump policy. Try again.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mETA: And just to be clear, even the administration admitted it was their policy, because they later reversed⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mit!⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/2018/06/20/us/politics/trump-immigra…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mjoshuamorton[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNobody "supports" that position at all as a matter of policy[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWell except that the Trump admin explicitly changed from a policy of not separating families.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mI mean what do you do about this problem /today/?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mStop policy B. The executive has the power to do so. There is no law requiring that asylum seekers be kept⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0min detention centers. Trump directly ended catch-and-release policies by executive order in 2017.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThese two things are things that Donald Trump explicitly and personally changed. The orders quite literally⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhave his signature on them.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcarapace[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mnobody "supports" keeping children in cages.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo it happened by accident?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIs that not worse?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkortilla[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you truly want learn something, first try learning why something that looks so obviously bad might be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mnuanced. Search for yourself to find out why the Obama-era policy of separating the children was put into⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mplace.⁣
  ⁣
    [1marnoldsing[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou seem offended by GGP.[[37m0[0m] Do you have a source for that sentiment?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] facts (1) don’t care about your feelings⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(1) facts -> I⁣
  ⁣
    [1menough90[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPlease return those goal lists to where they were. This NEEDS to stop. If you don't have an answer to why⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump et al thought it okay to permanently separate immigrant children from their parents and your stead⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0myell "BUT OBAMA!", that's cheating.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mSo do you actually have an answer or not?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25021317.[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mksk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOne candidate supported bombings in the middle east that resulted in deaths of hundreds, thousands of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcivilians including children. I'm pretty sure killing children is worse than keeping them alive. Why would⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0myou support that candidate?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou're playing a rhetorical game, rather than having an honest discussion.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdlp211[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump has committed more drone strikes than Obama. The only reason most people don't know this is because⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe Trump admin did away with all transparency requirements.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mchicago.suntimes.com/news/2019/5/8/18619206/under-do…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpnw_hazor[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat makes you think those 500 kids came with their parents?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe entire child crusade was caused by the Obama administration unilaterally changing asylum law to allow⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mclaims that are unrelated to a claimant's home nation state actions. Until then, being from a poor crime⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mridden country was not a valid ground for an asylum claim in any country. During the Obama administration, an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mimmigration judge ruled that such a claim was valid, the Obama DOJ let the ruling stand (the DOJ can⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0moverrule immigration judges).⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs soon as this policy was recognized and promoted by NGOs, the flood gates opened, women and children first⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minstead of working adults first.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso, until then absent congress made law for special cases, one could not travel through n-number of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcountries until eventually reaching the one you want to claim asylum in.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAsylum is a remedy for people in danger because of state actions or state actors — it must be made in the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfirst reached neutral country, not four countries over because that country has better benefits.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTrump's DOJ put things back to normal.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcomex[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWhat makes you think those 500 kids came with their parents?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThat’s what the family separation controversy is about - minors who arrived along with their parents but⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwere then separated from them. Unaccompanied minors are a separate issue.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mblargmaster42_8[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCommunism?
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe fat lady isn’t singing yet
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDoesn't the actual election happen later? If I recall in 2000, they had some trouble until December with Al
  [0mGore.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mminimaxir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBecause vote counts in Florida 2000 were a) absurdly close and b) alone would have determined the winner of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNeither is the case here.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mit's a projection, tens of thousands of provisioned and military ballots are still not counted. Recounts are
  [0mstill to happen in most swing states. Lawsuits are pending.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjonstewart[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s unlikely a recount will happen in Pennsylvania, as Biden’s margin of victory now exceeds the recount⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthreshold of 0.5%.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbra-ket[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthere is legal battle ongoing in PA⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmurat124[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mUntil the midterms in 2022 I don't expect much to happen on federal level (minus executive orders) but there's
  [0ma lot of work to do. Trump has proved US can be hijacked and someone who's a bit more competent can actually
  [0mtake over the country.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1magntar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDisappointed that politics are now in the Hacker News.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhj5ui8j[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCongratulations, you are now United Cities of America!
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhj5ui8j[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCongratulations! You are now United Cities of America …
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhelloworld2352[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mApparently advocating for the US to separate into two countries peacefully is against HN rules, who knew.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhelloworld2352[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mLet the country break into two peacefully, before it will done by force, violently.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mte_chris[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mOn behalf of the rest of the world: thanks America, removing the arsonist of global unity and multilateralism
  [0mis appreciated.

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1moh_sigh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPrepare for 4 years straight of Kumbaya and shoulder rubs. Prepare for world peace. Just like the world had⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min 2015 before the arsonist got in power.⁣
  ⁣
    [1madkadskhj[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's nice not to have someone so clearly and purposefully antagonizing everyone though. That is an [3mawful[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtrait in any president.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdrno123[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is ironic, right? Considering Libya and Siria under Obama compared to one invasive actuon in Iran under⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbriandear[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHas anyone paid attention to the Middle East lately? Quite a lot more peace achieved there recently.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnemo44x[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI guess the current joke is: now that everything is back to normal, who is the USA going to go to war with?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mivanstame[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mGet this political crap off from HN… The amount of US meddling in other countries elections the whole world
  [0mshould decide the faith of the US.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mBlueTemplar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWell, Trump didn't waste time and has already found a new job:
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.youtube.com/watch?v=9WfZuNceFDM[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mSimulacra[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mLike when the second plane hit the world trade center…
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mmamon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMy condolences to all the Americans for voting Biden into the president's office. Please enjoy the remains
  [0myour economic prosperity and peace while they last.
  [0m
  [0mAlso: sign up your children for Chinese lessons, they'll need it.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbiscotti[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m"Racist" mentioned in this thread dozens of times along with fascists all the usual derogatory buzzwords.
  [0mCommunist and woke both worryingly have less mentions considering the context. Bolshevism suprisingly has got
  [0mno mentions considering what the YCombinator Alumni Michael Simon tweeted and the platform he set up.
  [0m
  [0mAnywho, I digress. I believe those in here to be intelligent and educated so I would ask you to take your
  [0mpartisan hats off for a minute if you're honest and consider when AZ goes Trump this is the time for you to
  [0mstart freaking out.
  [0m
  [0mThe mainstream media has been extremely irresponsible and the forthcoming riots when this is overturned are
  [0mgoing to lay squarely on their feet. I would also ask those of you who have a conscience to be less
  [0mirresponsible than journalists over these coming weeks until December in an attempt to reduce said damage.
  [0m
  [0mI say this because if you think Biden is going to be your president you haven't been watching carefully
  [0menough.
  [0m
  [0mAlso dang if you will please change the title. Biden hasn't won anything yet - as you know the media doesn't
  [0mdeclare winners esp not given their woeful conduct and bogus calls (AZ), states have to certify before a
  [0mwinner is declared. Also please ask PG to be more responsible with his tweets if he will listen. This will
  [0mreflect badly on all involved.
  [0m
  [0mThankyou.
  [0m
  [0mEdited to add: I don't see Next Page at the bottom of the pages in this story, I'm not sure if it's bugged…

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbiscotti[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe downvotes were expected in this place.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI just want whoever is reading to know everything you're seeing tonight is an illusion. There is no president⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melect until the officials appoint it according to Americas constitution. The concession that has not been⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreceived means a great deal.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is the third coup attempt after Russia and impeachment and a lot of the people on this board are going⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mto be savagely disappointed.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIn addition I still can't believe this title stands. Interesting you would risk such bad press by⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mperpetuating an actual lie on this delicate subject.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrangoon626[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFOUR MORE YEARS FOUR MORE YEARS FOUR MORE YEARS FOUR MORE YEARS
  [0m
  [0mOverturn this in the SC so I can watch all of you squeal again.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdjsumdog[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI feel we should be mourning. Even if you wanted Biden to win, the election irregularities .. my god, they
  [0mwere so blatant. I stayed up until 2am Friday writing this:
  [0m
  [0m[34mbattlepenguin.com/politics/the-return-of-american-co…[0m
  [0m
  [0mI have no problem returning to the status quo, but we need to acknowledge what happened. It's happened before
  [0min 2000 and with JFK, but never to this scale. The media manipulated the people into a 24/7 hate machine and
  [0mhave caused major psychological damage to the entire American population.
  [0m
  [0mWe are literally seeing the world through two different screens. We are being told what to think and what is
  [0mtrue. This should terrify all of us.
  [0m
  [0mThis is not a time of honor.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjoak[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat really afraid me is that if such an idiot was able to become president and was finally so hard to beat.
  [0mThere is room for a much smarter populist. It will be then very hard to remove him/her.
  [0m
  [0mHow to avoid that in 2024 ?
  [0m
  [0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017161[0m

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1madamnemecek[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think that there isn't anyone with that sort of name recognition who would want to do it.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmixmastamyk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAgreed. What smart, successful person would take a low-paying job to be a professional punching bag?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mseppin[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mExactly, this dramatically understatements American obsession with celebrity and pageantry.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mphaemon[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mElon Musk?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mAnHonestComment[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI’m censored on HN because I subscribe to wrongthink.
  [0m
  [0m[32m@dang[0m declared that no matter how calmly and politely I stated mainstream conservative positions, I’m an
  [0minherent flame war because the audience wants me silenced.
  [0m
  [0mThis is here to stay.
  [0m
  [0mEdit:
  [0m
  [0mLooks like[32m @dang[0m beat me to a citation, but I’d invite readers to review my post history in general.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=23648091[0m⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mquattrofan[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe orange tumour has been excised, however it's clear some chemo is required for the spread into the
  [0mRepublicans of trumpism.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbra-ket[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTrump has been blatantly slandered by the mainstream media as racist evil orange man, it was 4 years of '1984'
  [0mstyle brainwashing by the left.
  [0m
  [0mOne of the big reasons for voting Trump was standing up against this propaganda machine, lies, censorship and
  [0mintimidation.
  [0m
  [0m70M people thankfully did just that, which gives hope in the future of this country.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mashameddemocrat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAs a registered democrat, I too am ashamed at the last four years of slander.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNot surprising at all given Wikipedia's political leanings. I wonder what Wikipedia says about Antifa?

                                                   [1m▶ 5 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 5 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25017345[0m and marked it off topic.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmckirk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34men.m.wikipedia.org/?title=Reality_has_a_well_known_l…[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mmedium.com/s/story/why-does-reality-have-a-well-know…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1moooooooooooow[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI am not sure about the basis of this allegation, but the suspicion and possibility of it saddens me deeply⁣
  ⁣
    [1msfkdjf9j3j[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWikipedia is fine within its own defined limits. Conservatives see sources like New York Times as⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfundamentally biased and untrustworthy or "leftist" so from that perspective wikipedia is biased toward the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mleft.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mashleshbiradar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0medits on wikipedia are not representative of the entire organization, and another important thing to note, is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat neither are the edits permanent, just like in this case, the reference to Joe is gone, it was undone.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mnostromo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThere are a lot of curious statistics about ballot counts in a few swing states, including a record-breaking
  [0m90% turn-out in Wisconsin.
  [0m
  [0m[34mtheredelephants.com/there-is-undeniable-mathematical…[0m
  [0m
  [0m(Ignore the flame-bait headline, and go right to the charts.)

                                                   [1m▶ 6 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 6 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1maconbere[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLook, you seem like a bright and engaged fellow, but this right here is a perfect example of how easy it is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfor false information to get magnified.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis claim started as a tweet by Donal Trump Junior but can be easily fact checked by looking up the voter⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcount for 2020 and the voting population of Wisconsin (3.2M against 4.5M), or in a desperate time a quick⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGoogle.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI expect better from the community here and from you personally.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mnostromo[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat specifically in the post is false?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mVoting population is not registered voters. Apparently Wisconsin had a truly unprecedented night with⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0msame-day registrations, mostly voting for nobody but Joe Biden.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWe need a more auditable electoral system if we want people to have faith in the system. We just came off⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfour years of claims of a hacked election, and it looks like that may be the new norm.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmatthewmcg[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe nearly 90% number is of [3mregistered[0m voters. 72% of [3meligible[0m WI voters voted in the 2020 election, which is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mabout average, e.g. 2004 was 72.9%.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcharliemil4[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJust so you know, that's still an incredible turnout that as a democracy proponent we should emulate⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthroughout the land — but I also know from local elections… I'm hard pressed to understand how that⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhappened.⁣
  ⁣
   [1machenatx[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthy are calculating turnout improperly.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHistorical data uses votes/voting eligible population⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe 90% number comes from votes/registered voters.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIf you calculate turnout the way wisconsin has historically done it, turnout is in line with past elections.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbrown9-2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt’s only curious because you and the author misunderstand the data.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mFranzFerdiNaN[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mTrump and the MAGA crowd are absolutely fine with things like separating kids from their parents, forced
  [0msterilization, intense racism, celebrating and stimulating police violence, attempting to steal elections,
  [0mopen corruption by a sitting president and much much more. And yet you go “gosh darn that foreign interference
  [0mis causing leftist ideas”. Maybe you should take a series look at your media consumption because it sounds
  [0mlike you’re a stereotypical Fox News viewer.

                                                   [1m▶ 13 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 13 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mblub[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou've read right past everything the parent comment said and wrote a generic comment demonizing the "MAGA⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcrowd". This is not what a dialogue looks like and until people start controlling their fanaticism -⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mespecially the American left - the USA will make no progress on healing the divisions that have been building⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mup for decades.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mprox[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLets flip back to the parent message :⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m> People on the left think that anyone on the right is a lunatic, and everyone on the right thinks the same⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthing about the left.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou thinking you’re right is ingrained in your belief system, and maybe reinforced by certain signals you⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpick up.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI think an exercise is to start walking or thinking a mile in the shoes of the opposite camp, can make a lot⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mof difference.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mA step further is to actually start a dialogue with someone from the opposite camp where you both actively⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtry to see it from the others perspective.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mABCLAW[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is not what a dialogue looks like[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes it is. You just don't like it.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe post you're replying to lays out, from their perspective, a list of actions that they believe are⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mself-evidently unjustifiable.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDo you agree with that assessment? Do you believe there's justification to be had? I think most of the real⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0marguments in favor of them have been left unsaid, because they fundamentally contradict a number of modern⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwestern paradigms regarding inherent rights and human dignity. But that's not really fatal to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mphilosophic position; maybe those paradigms are false.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mmcphage[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThis is not what a dialogue looks like and until people start controlling their fanaticism - especially[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mthe American left - the USA will make no progress on healing the divisions that have been building up for[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mdecades.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAh the ol’ open dialog two step—the right wins? Time for the left to open up dialog with the right. The left⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwins? Time for the left to open up dialog with the right. The left is a broad coalition, the right is not.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mMaybe it’s the right’s turn to finally try opening up some dialog.⁣
  ⁣
   [1m5252352435245[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mforced sterilization[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mEvery time this is brought up, and the usual analogies to Nazi Germany are made, people get uncomfortable⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhen it's pointed out that the doctor at the center of this is named Mahendra Amin, that he's an immigrant⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhimself, that he has a history of medicaid fraud (which is likely what this was; more fraud), and is (from⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis name and photos) obviously non-white:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2m[34mwww.latimes.com/politics/story/2020-10-22/women-alle…[0m[2m[3m[0m[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut "Nazi doc sterilizes immigrant women of color" clearly has better optics.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mPicassoCTs[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIn some catholic countries, abortion was a long "taboo" topic, and to have aborted - was similar in status⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto a sex-worker. So there were "angel" makers, woman who aborted without a doctors license. It was⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdangerous- it was shunned, and it was absolutely necessary, because the normal sex-drive, with no money⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mavailable for contraceptives - this was the only way out of "constant" reproduction, work-overload and⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mdeeper poverty.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf caught in the act of aborting, the very same woman, often with several children already, in fear of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgetting shunned and ostracized, would throw the "witch" doctor to the wulfes. And this is what this sounds⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlike.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mRequesting a black-market Vasectomy and then denying it when the light of public opinion falls on it. Such⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthings happen in totalitarian states, like china, but not in democracy with independent courts like the us.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdashundchen[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoes it matter what the ethnicity the doctor was, rather than the agency and government that allowed it?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat a weird aspect of the horrific violation of human rights to focus on.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mfiloeleven[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI can see why people might jump right to the Nazis there, but it’s important to know that the Nazis took⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mtheir cue on forced sterilization from the eugenics movement in the USA. At one point, some 30 states had⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mlaws allowing for it.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34men.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics_in_the_United_State…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthirteenchars[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause of course all non whites are basically the same. He's a Gujarati doctor; his politics are going to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe well to the right, like any self-respecting prosperous Indian professional.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mIzkata[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mare absolutely fine with things like separating kids from their parents[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is a lie propagated by people that don't understand what happens on the southern border: kids are⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtemporarily separated from the adults smuggling them into the country because [3mwe don't know if those adults[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[3mare their parents[0m.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis is what Trump was referring to with the "coyote" comment during the last presidential debate. The number⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mof people on Twitter thinking he meant the animal was a massive facepalm that just revealed how ignorant they⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mare. "Coyote" in this context means "human trafficker".⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPlease don't do political flamewar on HN.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe detached this subthread from [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25023556.[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1m1MachineElf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mforced sterilization[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don't think it's accurate to say Trump supporters were OK with this. We had headlines about that happening⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min Georgia earlier this year. There are many issues at play here, but this seems to be a result of a horrible⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mderanged doctor rather than some kind of forced sterilization program.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.thedailybeast.com/ice-hysterectomy-doctor-wasnt-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mzalkota[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou’re part of the problem⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjust-juan-post[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mJoe Biden, Kamala Harris Got a Big Social Media Boost from Indian Troll Farms
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.newsweek.com/joe-biden-kamala-harris-got-big-soc…[0m
  [0m
  [0mSocial media has been devoid of Covid fear mongering since election night. For months we had daily stories
  [0mpumping out fear about Covid. For the last few days there has been nothing to talk about while we waited for
  [0mthe recount yet no USA-centric Covid horror stories have appeared.
  [0m
  [0mWhy are they gone? Where did they go? There were waves of Covid stories for months on Reddit, HN, and other
  [0mmedia. Where did they go and more importantly where did the come from?
  [0m
  [0m"Coivd will go away when the election is over" is shorthand for "The Democrats pumped up the Covid fear to
  [0mattempt to win elections".
  [0m
  [0mSo far it has been true.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmixmastamyk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's called "news" for a reason. Old stories simply aren't as interesting.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1memailf845872[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDemocrats want to subjugate. The anti-globalist portion of the Republican party (the one that elected Trump)
  [0mjust wants to get the hell away and have their own country.
  [0m
  [0mSplit the country apart - let the coasts go, we will have the middle, let them have a northern corridor. It's
  [0mtime to break up, we want nothing to do with you. This is not a debate - we want to leave. My grandfather, and
  [0mmany other GIs would have dropped their firearms on the spot if they knew what the country would become
  [0mtoday.
  [0m
  [0mThe real enemy has always been the globalists.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdang[0m [32mmod [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWe've banned this account - this is an example of the ideological flaming that this site is not for.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFor anyone worried about bias, same applies the other way - e.g. [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016654[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPlease (all/any of you) do not create accounts to break HN's guidelines with.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mhelloworld2352[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAdvocating for a peaceful breakup of the country is an ideological flame?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mKye[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m2016 HN had a big, busy thread for Trump's election and didn't wait for the Electoral College to vote in
  [0mDecember.
  [0m
  [0mIt stayed up. Please show the same consideration.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mCurtHagenlocher[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mEverybody does realize that this has no legal significance, right?

                                                   [1m▶ 13 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 13 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnotatoad[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, I'm pretty sure everybody here understands that AP doesn't [3mofficially[0m decide who wins the election.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt still has significance.⁣
  ⁣
    [1miconjack[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mJoe Biden has added "president elect" to his bio. When Trump tweets that he won, Twitter flags it.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mUser23[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSurely somewhere in the emanations and penumbras of the constitution we can find that the AP’s decision is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbinding.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdentemple[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAs Hamilton famously wrote in Federalist Paper #85:⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m"It's not official until it's Facebook Official."⁣
  ⁣
   [1madamch[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt's predictive of a forthcoming legally-significant event.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhandmodel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDo you realize no one thinks it has legal significance?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut it is a marker that people use as shorthand. There is no getting around the fact that Biden will have 270⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melectoral votes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdllthomas[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere absolutely [3mis[0m room for Biden not to have 270 electoral votes, if investigations reveal (… correctly or⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mincorrectly) big enough issues that some states don't send electors.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI don't think there's a realistic way for Trump to have 270 electoral votes, but he could still possibly be⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mawarded the Presidency by a weird-ass one-vote-per-state vote in the House.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mgoogthrowaway42[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mDo you realize no one thinks it has legal significance?[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlmost everyone does.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mnooyurrsdey[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhat an obnoxious way to rain on a parade. everyone is more than aware of how the electoral system works.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mLooking around the thread you'll see that might not be the case. I think the comment meant to correct a⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(hopefully uncommon) misconception that the election is now final before all the votes have been counted,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhich of course isn't true.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mA4ET8a8uTh0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYes, but note how quickly it was picked up by general populace as fait accompli.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mrefurb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNot saying Biden didn’t win, but is it really the media that makes the call?

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mihuman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo, the real call isn't until the electoral college votes on December 14th. The media is calling states when⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtheir projections are confident enough (and possibly when the difference is above the automatic recount⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthreshold).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mdisown[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNo, the real call isn't until the electoral college votes on December 14th.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoubtful. Doesn't look like Trump is going to concede. Likely litigation and supreme court in the coming⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mweeks.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThe media is calling states when their projections are confident enough (and possibly when the difference[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[2;3mis above the automatic recount threshold).[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe media has been projecting trump to lose since 2016. Well since 2014 really.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mEither way, it's history in the making. Comfy chair. Popcorn. All set.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mhandmodel[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mDonald Trump was called the Republican nominee for months before the convention even though you could say⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat was the "media" making the call. In fact, he didn't become the nominee until the vote at the convention⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwas certified.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBut it is completely irrelevant. Biden will be the next president.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mblisterpeanuts[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe typical term is "presumptive". Trump was the presumptive nominee until the RNC met. Biden is the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mpresumptive victor, pending completion of vote counts and EC vote. But people just shorten it to the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m(foregone conclusion of) victor.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbkovacev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs someone who is not that much into politics but receives salary in US dollar - what does Biden win mean for
  [0mthe US economy and the dollar?

                                                   [1m▶ 12 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 12 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHere's Moody's pre-election analysis (PDF)[[37m0[0m]. Overall they viewed a Democratic win as more economically⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mproductive than a Republican one.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[[37m0[0m] [34mwww.moodysanalytics.com/-/media/article/2020/the-mac…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mcsa[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNo one really knows.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA big factor will be who wins the Senate, and that won’t be decided until January due to two run off⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melections in Georgia.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe two possible outcomes in the Senate will still leave questions about what, if any, additional stimulus⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlegislation will be passed, and my guess is that this has the potential to impact the markets and exchange⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrates significantly.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThere is no easy answer to your question, so I would start reading up on the potential outcomes and relevant⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mlegislation if it might have a material impact on you.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msimonh[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mProbably not a lot for quite a while to be honest. The virus is still here, the deficit is still ballooning⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mand Biden won't even be in office for another few months. Even when he is, it will take time for policies to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbe formulated, enacted and eventually have any effect.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mm3kw9[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNot much if they don’t win the senate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mblisterpeanuts[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHistorically, when the President and at least one house of Congress are opposing parties, the federal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mgovernment tends to be gridlocked except in time of national emergency (e.g., 9/11).⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis, I believe, is why the markets are reacting rather optimistically to the election results. Market⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mmakers clearly believe that a Biden presidency and a Republican Senate will get very little done, pass very⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfew new laws, and spend a lot of time quarreling. This allows the economy to essentially run on auto-pilot,⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mwhich in a free market system is rather conducive to growth.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf however the Senate swings to the Democrats after all the votes are counted, it may be a different story.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtcbawo[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mLikely the biggest change for the next year will be strategy for fighting Covid. Expect vast expansion of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mtest and trace, bigger push for mask mandates, but also earlier reopening of public spaces and a sharper⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrecovery in second half of 2021. Impact on the dollar is a crap shoot due to huge Fed intervention that never⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwound down from the last recession.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mCyberDildonics[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mProbably not as much as this:⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mfred.stlouisfed.org/series/M1REAL[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdentemple[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mMore predictability in the market, even more so if the Senate remains in Republican hands (since the ensuing⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpolitical deadlock would make it unlikely that we'll see major legislation pass over the next two years).⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmalcolmgreaves[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mReturn of a coordinated US foreign policy, which includes supporting allies and not kowtowing to dictators,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwill bring stability to global financial markets. With the US once again making decisions based on facts and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mscience and sound economic policy, I fully expect the US economy to get back into stable, modest growth (vs.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe last 4 years of chaotic instability. If the government is unstable, the economy reacts pessimisticly).⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbruceb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe guy elected promoted and voted for the Iraq war. Let's ease up on saying the foreign policy is going to⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbe good.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhere did Trump kowtow to dictators?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mwolco2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCloser relations with China. Reverse on immigration. US attracts/accepts more foreign workers. Probably a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mraising dollar and lower stockmarket. The high taxes might see some flee high tax states/regions (living in⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNew York city making 400k will cost you 60%+ of income tax) to lower cost states or out of country or remote.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mOverall remote work should increase with a different lockdown tone at the federal level creating uncertainy⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0min commercial real estate.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mbradlys[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYou won’t see 60% income tax on 400k. That would require an additional 10%+ new income tax (which no one is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0masking on a 400k income). Even then, you’d not lose 60% of your income. You’d lose around 35%-40% to taxes⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstill because of how tax brackets work.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mcmurf[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt's flagged why? There's an identically titled one for Trump from 2016.

                                                   [1m▶ 4 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 4 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mihuman[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mPolitics is usually against the HN guidelines.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAlso there's a new thread from the NY Times that has more votes and isn't flagged⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=25016070[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1m3PS[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe NYTimes one has also been flagged now, and just about every comment in that thread has been downvoted⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mheavily. My guess is it's a small group of users flagging everything about the election results.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mcmurf[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAbsurd. There is an identically titled article from election night 2016, for Trump. HN has consistently⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcarried water for Trump by allowing a small number of HNers to flag Trump critical articles, for four years.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDonald Trump is the president-elect of the U.S. [34mnews.ycombinator.com/item?id=12907201[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdragonwriter[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mThere's an identically titled one for Trump from 2016.[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt would probably be flagged today, too; the tolerance for mainstream political content has dropped since⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m2016.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1m11thEarlOfMar[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSince the oil embargo of 73-74[[37m0[0m], which was caused by the 'Arab-Israeli War', securing the oil supply from
  [0mthe Middle East has been a top priority of the US government. The embargo highlighted how vulnerable the US
  [0mwas to the Middle East. Since then, 'Peace in the Middle East' has been a plum goal of successive US
  [0madministrations. President Carter was able to get a peace agreement between Israel and Egypt[[31m1[0m] which
  [0mcontributed to his ultimately winning a Nobel prize[[33m2[0m].
  [0m
  [0mSucceeding administrations failed to gain additional peace and instead leaned on regime change in an attempt
  [0mto oust unstable governments and seat US-friendly, stable regimes. This approach failed in principle: Regime
  [0mchange itself did not lead to stability. But instead, led to wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and ultimately, it
  [0mwas the protracted presence of US troops in those nations that provided stability. That stability was paid for
  [0mwith the lives of US soldiers put in harms way of militants from both within those nations and from outside
  [0mof them.
  [0m
  [0mUnder Obama, two threats emerged: ISIS and an emboldened Iran. ISIS went from a 'JV Team', to controlling an
  [0marea the size of Pennsylvania, spanning Iraq and Syria[[32m3[0m]. Iran was granted an agreement to suspend
  [0mweapons-grade nuclear research until 2031 [[34m4[0m]. Iran may or may not be complying with the agreement, but it was
  [0mknown that they were causing instability throughout the Middle East, funding ISIS, Hezbolah, and planning and
  [0mfunding ambush attacks on US troops throughout the region[[36m5[0m].
  [0m
  [0mThis was the situation in January 2017.
  [0m
  [0mReviewing what the current administration has done since taking office, the coordinated and deliberate steps,
  [0mand the results, have been astonishing, given the intractable and largely unsuccessful efforts to stabilize
  [0mthe region over the last 50 years:
  [0m
  [0ma. Established 'energy independence' by modifying US regulations on production of oil, natural gas and coal.
  [0mThe US became a net exporter of energy, reducing the leverage that the Middle East states have over the US[[35m6[0m].
  [0m
  [0mb. Moved the US Embassy in Israel to Jerusalem and recognize the Golan Heights as Sovereign Israel territory.
  [0mThis worked to gain trust from Israel, improving their willingness to participate in peace agreements. [[91m8[0m]
  [0m
  [0mc. Coordinated with Russia to eliminate ISIS. It was completely eradicated, including US Special Forces
  [0mkilling the leader and founder, Al-Baghdadi[[92m10[0m].
  [0m
  [0md. Withdrew from the Iran Nuclear accord, and renewed sanctions against Iran. The funds provided by the accord
  [0mlikely were used in part to fund their terror activities.
  [0m
  [0me. Killed General Soleimani, who was know to be the mastermind and source of funding for terrorism throughout
  [0mthe Middle East, directed not just at US, but other Arab States as well. [[97m7[0m] d. and e. illustrated to the Arab
  [0mStates that the US was willing to take decisive action to quell the regional threat that Iran posed.
  [0m
  [0mf. Withdrew troops from Syria, extricating the US from that war zone, after ISIS was defeated.
  [0m
  [0mg. Begin withdrawing troops from Iraq and Afghanistan. Most Arab countries want the US out so they can
  [0mself-govern again.
  [0m
  [0mh. With the above puzzle pieces in place, the administration rapidly concluded peace agreements between Israel
  [0mand three Arab states: United Arab Emirates, Bahrain [[93m9[0m] and later, Sudan. Other countries are said to be
  [0mjoining soon.
  [0m
  [0mi. Earned 2 Nobel peace prize nominations for the peace agreements (for 2021, winners will be announced next
  [0mSeptember).
  [0m
  [0mReviewing this timeline, and the magnitude of this achievement, it's hard to square the approach and its
  [0msuccess against the claims of ineptitude leveled.
  [0m
  [0m[[37m0[0m] [34mhistory.state.gov/milestones/1969-1976/oil-embargo[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[31m1[0m] [34mwww.history.com/news/jimmy-carter-camp-david-accords…[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[33m2[0m] [34mwww.nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/2002/carter/facts/[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[32m3[0m] [34mabcnews.go.com/International/isis-years-jv-team-inte…[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[34m4[0m] [34mwww.europarl.europa.eu/cmsdata/122460/full-text-of-t…[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[36m5[0m] [34mwww.state.gov/reports/country-reports-on-terrorism-2…[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[35m6[0m] [34mtiny.cc/oilexport[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[97m7[0m] [34mtiny.cc/defang[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[91m8[0m] [34mtiny.cc/Embassy[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[93m9[0m] [34mtiny.cc/mideastpeace[0m
  [0m
  [0m[[92m10[0m] [34mwww.njhomelandsecurity.gov/analysis/tag/Abu+Bakr+al-…[0m
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdpeterson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mhe didn't win anything
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mRedComet[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m"wins"
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msimianparrot[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAnd this is relevant here how?
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mthrowaway316943[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThis thread is the worst. September looms.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mkyle_martin1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNot legally confirmed yet.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msfoley[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0m“ If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.”
  [0m
  [0mFlagged
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mvaccinator[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mUsually posts with many comments get demoted fast… Not this one I guess
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1morblivion[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mNobody won the white house yet.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mvaccinator[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIf I was Trump, I would ask for a mental and physical evaluation of Biden since he is senile.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msergioro[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe media doesn’t decide who wins elections, voters do.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdpeterson[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFraud
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdschuetz[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI'm glad for those Americans who suffered the nightmarish past 4 years. Finally, you're about to catch a
  [0mbreak.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbeervirus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAnyone who’s just been living life and not obsessively reading CNN will tell you that the last 4 years have⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbeen pretty ordinary and fine.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mminimaxir[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe coronavirus pandemic and how the Trump administration handled it was likely the proximate cause for⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTrump losing the election.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf things were indeed normal or he acted like a leader to minimize deaths, he likely would have won⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mreelection.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mThe_rationalist[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mSTOP TEH COUNTS

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mThe_rationalist[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m/s⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1markis22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mthe downvotes in this thread are gross
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1msymlinkk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI still don’t see what was so bad about Trump. Can someone explain?
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mbriantakita[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBiden has not "won the whitehouse". There is a process which includes court challenges, recounts, & the
  [0mElectoral College. This headline is premature at best & if Trump wins court challenges, could be misleading…
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mengineer_22[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI don't envy Joe's position. The vaccine is a question mark and COVID probably has a lot to do with his
  [0mvictory. I think I speak for all Americans when I say we all want to be free from this disease and doing
  [0mbetter 4 years from now.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1maaron695[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAnyone else not getting Trump's real Twitter account on search anymore for the past few days?
  [0m
  [0m"Trump Twitter"
  [0m
  [0mObviously[33m @realdonaldtrump[0m is normally top, with preview.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mFjolsvith[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIts far from over. Has anyone compared the people on the legal team that Bush used to beat Gore with the
  [0mcurrent Supreme Court justices?
  [0m
  [0m4D chess. Thats how he plays.

                                                   [1m▶ 2 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 2 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mshadowgovt[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"Throwing every legal challenge at the wall to see what sticks" isn't exactly 4D chess. He's batting a little⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mover 50% right now on even having cases heard, much less victories; a little under half of what's been filed,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthe courts have either already found against his campaign or summarily dismissed for being too half-baked to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwaste court time on.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m[34mwww.politico.com/news/2020/11/04/supreme-court-trump…[0m⁣
  ⁣
    [1mFjolsvith[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIts going to go to the House of Representatives, and they will elect him.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m4D, I'm telling you.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mhereme888[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mWhat would ya'll do if the courts rule in Trump's favor re: ballots arriving after Nov 3? I'm just saying,
  [0mwait for the decisive victory, and be careful of the possibility of civil war.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1masdfk-12[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMedia and political institutions have been attempting to bury the current president with the tired Russia
  [0mnarrative and other gambits since he walked down the escalator.
  [0m
  [0mJoe's appeal today to "let this grim era of demonization in America begin to end here and now!" seems
  [0mdisingenous given the past 4 years, but I do hope that our public discourse improves, for everyone's sake.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mThinkBeat[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mIt is Important to note that this is not the official result.
  [0m
  [0mIt is 99.99% correct call but it is not the official result.
  [0m
  [0mUnless DJT does the sportsmen like thing and concedes.
  [0m
  [0mGiven Hillary had told not to call concede under any circumstances DJT will probably not either.
  [0m
  [0mIt will be a totally unnecessary mess.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mjungletime[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHigh odds he will be the first holographic president ever. He's a uniter and not a divider. One day he will
  [0mresurect from the crypt to whisper sweet affirmations on live TV about unity, sugar and spice and everything
  [0mnice, and get claps from a parking lot of empty cars.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mFandangoRanger[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHe hasn’t been certified as the winner of even a single state yet. Trump called the bluff, soon the only vote
  [0mthat matters will be ACB’s.

                                                    [1m▶ 1 reply[0m                                                   ‌
                                                    [1;2m▼ 1 reply[0m                                                   ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mpaulgb[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mNews organizations have always made the call before the vote was certified (hence the famous "Dewey Defeats⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTruman").⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mauganov[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mFTX [[37m0[0m] has President Trump's chances at remaining President in February 2021 at a little over 10%. Numerous
  [0mlegal pathways remain for President Trump to win.
  [0m
  [0m[34mftx.com/trade/TRUMPFEB[0m

                                                   [1m▶ 8 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 8 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is patently false. There are no allegations at any level that would legally alter the election results.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mthrowaway201606[0m [2m8 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mPosting this, not to be confrontational but to share info.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mtwitter.com/FareedZakaria/status/1326255584069513220[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThis is a piece on GPS ( a CNN show ) where Fareed Zakaria lays out a potential election endgame, predicated⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mon legal strategy with "allegations" as a key component, that seems to line up with exactly what is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhappening now. that could be very effective at altering election results.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mNote that the video was recorded before the election and shows a potential strategy that uses legal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mchallenges to voting results at various levels as a navigation tool aimed at ending with a situation where⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mcongress/states elect the president on a one-vote per state basis.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mauganov[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mAlthough there are possible scenarios where enough ballots would be disqualified, there are scenarios beyond⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthat. Legislatures don't necessarily have to certify the result. Electoral Count Act and Bush v. Gore seem⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mto suggest that state legislatures can in fact do as they please despite state law suggesting otherwise. And⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mall of the heavily disputed states have Republican legislatures.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mGiven an electoral dispute it could be decided by house delegations which gives Republicans an edge.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mrightbyte[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat happens if Biden dies before the electoral vote? Do the electors vote for the vice president candidate?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mDoes she assume office as president if Biden dies after the electoral vote?⁣
  ⁣
    [1med25519FUUU[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mI'm not sure where you get your confidence from. Just yesterday the Supreme Courter ordered ballots received⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mafter election day to be counted separately in Pennsylvania. This will at least give us an idea if the legal⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mproceedings can "legally alter the election results", because if that number is high enough to swing the⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstate there's going to be a lot of litigation.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThere's a long way to go until Jan 20th folks. Buckle up.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[34mthehill.com/regulation/court-battles/524900-supreme-…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mdudus[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThese are 11c contracts that pay $1 in Feb if he's president and $0 otherwise. It's basically people betting⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mon what is a very unlikely scenario now.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mCalling this a 10% chance he continues to be president in Feb21 is disingenuous at best.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mkhinkali[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mTRUMPFEB temporarily dropped as low as $0.07 and has hovered around $0.10 to $0.11 for a while.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt rallied to almost $0.16 a few hours ago amid a [3mlot[0m of buying volume and now it's steadying at $0.14⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI can't see Trump getting all four recounts he needs even if some invalid votes are removed.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat do people know that I don't?⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mdimitrios1[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mA lot of people here are talking about the "healing the division" but what if the path forward is to figure
  [0mout how to exist with the division? We need to start getting more creative than just wishfully thinking this
  [0mpolarization is going away anytime soon because news flash, it's not. So what is the step forward?
  [0m
  [0mA national divorce needs to start being talked about more seriously. It's at least peaceful and amicable, and
  [0mbetter than the other alternatives (civil war, foreign conquerors, authoritarianism, etc).
  [0m
  [0mThis isn't "giving up" on the problems per say, but instead, accepting reality and thinking of solutions going
  [0mforward. Thinking the left and right can be unified again is as wishful as thinking Artificial intelligence
  [0mwon't displace anymore workers.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1malexashka[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mDoes anyone feel strange about a 77 year old man being put under this much stress?
  [0m
  [0mPolitics aside, I would not wish a stressful job on [3many[0m 77 year old regardless of their health and well being
  [0m- there are biological realities to being a human.
  [0m
  [0mI don't know what motivates these decisions but it seems to me the people of his own party either don't care
  [0mthat there is a non-trivial chance he will die, or they think the glory of being president, even if
  [0mcompromised is worth dying for, or something else.
  [0m
  [0mAll of the reasons I can come up with strike me as misguided - 'president' is not a mountain peak you reach
  [0mwith your dying breath, it is supposed to be a difficult job of serving others.
  [0m
  [0mIf someone has a take on what his party/he is thinking that's other than 'winning is all that matters', I'd
  [0mreally like to know.

                                                   [1m▶ 5 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 5 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mbluecup[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe same can be said of Trump—he's 74 and obese, which I would say puts him and Biden at least around the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msame level of health. It would be re-assuring to have younger candidates, but you can't claim this is an⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0missue for one candidate but not his heavy, three-years-junior opponent.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAt the end of the day as long as the president has the ability to choose competent advisors / cabinet member⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI think they'll be successful, and I definitely have more confidence in Biden's ability to do this.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msosodev[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI don’t get the age concerns. He’s only 3 years older than Trump.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mMisterBastahrd[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mHe's in vastly better physical condition than Trump, too.⁣
  ⁣
    [1malexashka[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mWhat's Trump got to do with it?⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe question is whether or not you'd wish your 77 year old parent/grandparent to undertake 4 years of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mimmense stress.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf your answer is yes I would, I'd like to know why and what factors you consider worth the risk of dying of⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mstress related illness.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mTo be clear, this is not a job only select 70-year olds can do, this is a job many others [3mwant[0m to do and I⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthink if you ask any rational human being, a younger person would be better suited for.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mmixmastamyk[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHe knows what to do, and delegation is a thing as well.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI will be very surprised if he runs for another term however.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1meinpoklum[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mBiden has vowed to a group of his donor that, if he is elected, "Nothing would fundamentally change":
  [0m
  [0m[34mwww.salon.com/2019/06/19/joe-biden-to-rich-donors-no…[0m
  [0m
  [0mso the title should be amended to: "Biden wins White House, effectively vowing no new direction for US".

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mzamadatix[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mSo tired of calls to action from everyone related to pulling sentence fragments out of speeches from group⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfigureheads and building a whole narrative around what it could have meant since what was said isn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m"shocking" enough in context. Always 3rd (or worse) level references because the source material wasn't⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mclickbaity enough. Often shared with comments like "not sure if this is true but it really makes you think"⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mor other ways of feigning ignorance about what was just said while still saying it.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIsn't there anything good being done by any leaders worth sharing instead of how one found a year old article⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mor tweet that they managed to turn into a "hot take" comment? Or progress on actual efforts instead? Is this⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthought the real silent majority or is all anyone's ever interesting in shitting on whatever <other guy>⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0msays?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtiziniano[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAfter the l4ptop from hell was exposed, we can see he does not care for much other than continuing to enrich⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhis family. There certainly will be new directions towards China, Middle east⁣
  ⁣
    [1meinpoklum[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mActually, in Biden's defense - while those emails do provide further evidence of corruption, they don't show⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhe doesn't care for anything other than family enrichment. They perhaps show that he care to unduly benefit⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mhis son, which is bad, but not the same thing.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mthrualoo2020[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mAs a non-US citizen watching this from the outside, I'm divided between my relief at American's not having to
  [0mendure Trump's stupidity for another 4 years, and some trepidation for world citizens on what a
  [0mcompetent/active US president will do w.r.t. foreign policy & proxy wars.
  [0m
  [0mThe perception is that Trump was too dump to start new wars and wasn't subtle - so you could at least know
  [0mwhat he's thinking w.r.t. your (non-American) interests. On the other hand, most American presidents are nice
  [0m& courteous at face value while raining drone bombs on unsuspecting non-Americans, spreading Freedom (with a
  [0mcapital F).
  [0m
  [0mAs a non-American, I would rather Americans endure a bit longer and the remaining (7B-0.3B) world citizens
  [0mhave 4 more years of (relative) US non-involvement. Selfish, I know, but the world needs a breather.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mTrias11[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mLet see how taxing wealthy out of existence to pave the road to prosperity will work out for Bi… I mean
  [0mHarris.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mceilingcorner[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mCompletely independently of who won/will win this election, I find it massively irresponsible that media
  [0moutlets are calling it before actual states are. The media should report the news, not make it.

                                                   [1m▶ 12 replies[0m                                                 ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 12 replies[0m                                                 ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mtdeck[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThis happens every election. States always take days or weeks to certify their results.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mceilingcorner[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe fact that it always happens doesn’t make it any better. Media announcements have real effects. We⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0malready saw this happen in 2000.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mklank[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mWhat if you look at "calling a race" as "reporting on the underlying mathematical trajectories based off of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mempirical vote evidence"?⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mGiven I believe that's an accurate description of what's involved in a news organization calling a race,⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthey're not making the news, but reporting it, albeit in a form that makes it more palatable to the average⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mreader.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mceilingcorner[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes but that isn’t the messaging here. “Biden [3mwon[0m the election” is.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIf there is some kind of court challenge or recount that changes the outcome, it’s really bad for trust in⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mthe democratic system. Better to just be patient and wait - but patience is something lacking these days.⁣
  ⁣
   [1msimias[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat's how it's done in most countries in Europe as well in my experience. To be clear in the end it's not⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwhat the media say that matters, it's the certified vote counts but those come in often much later. In this⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcase I believe that some states like Alaska will be counting ballots well into next week.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mIt makes sense to call the race once the lead is considered significant enough that the remaining ballots⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mcan't statistically change the outcome.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mA good counterexample in this election is Arizona, that's been called early for Biden by some outlets (AP and⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFox News IIRC) but is still considered to be potentially winnable by Trump by the others. In this case it is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mpossible that AP and Fox were a bit too trigger happy.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mscarmig[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThe media calling the election has no legal force. In principle, they look at the results and call the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0melection once they think it's highly unlikely that a particular candidate can lose. Sometimes that call is⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mbadly made, like Florida 2000 or, IMO, Fox calling Arizona prematurely. But it's misinforming viewers to⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mclaim that all candidates still have a chance after some point in time.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mGavinMcG[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mHow could this possibly work? Do you want to legally bar speech with the content "We have a 99.9% confidence⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mthat X will win"?⁣
  ⁣
   [1mOneTwoPetitFour[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat is an old tradition. Why should the states call a national election?⁣
  ⁣
    [1mceilingcorner[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBecause the government is made up of laws, not media corporations.⁣
  ⁣
   [1mJap2-0[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mI found the AP's article (who [edit: many, not nearly everyone] goes off of for race calls) to be⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minteresting: [34mwww.ap.org/en-us/topics/politics/elections/how-we-ca…[0m⁣
  ⁣
   [1mjs2[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mYou must also find it massively irresponsible for Trump to state he won the election as early as Wednesday⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmorning.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mFortunately, his statements, like those of the media, aren’t how the winner is determined. Rather, all the⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mvotes are counted and then certified. The media waits until the unofficial counts are outside of the reach of⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mrecounts. Trump’s legal challenges are contradictory: he’s arguing to continue counting in states where he⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mis behind and stop counting in states where he is ahead. It doesn’t work that way.⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mAfter 2000, the media has been very conservative in waiting to call elections. In any case, they’ve twice⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mmiscalled a presidential election but it didn’t impact the ultimate winner, because at the end of the day, we⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mfollow the rule of law.⁣
  ⁣
    [1mceilingcorner[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mYes, of course it was irresponsible for Trump to do so. That has nothing to do with my comment, which is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mabout the news media.⁣
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1malbertTJames[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mThe republican party has no counterpart anywhere in the world. They are led by evangelical bigots and some of
  [0mthem even believe in QAnon conspiracy theories. It is the hideous face of inbred de-evolution of philosophical
  [0mand political ideas into fanatisms and childish naratives. They are not going away. Educate you population,
  [0mseparate church and state now, and maybe future trumps wont be able to do so much damage.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mpolitician[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mI am convinced that the main problem in the US is the structure of the Senate. It is preposterous to assert
  [0mthat the state of Rhode Island or the welfare state of Kentucky is as important to the security or economic
  [0mhealth of the nation as California or Texas.
  [0m
  [0mWe are a divided nation: people trying to make the best of their situation, and the Senate, a fantasyland
  [0mwhere we pretend that every state is equally relevant.
  [0m
  [0mThe "2 per state" rule worked back in 1776 because the states were roughly the same size, everyone was a
  [0mfarmer, and fertilizer had not yet been invented.
  [0m
  [0mToday, senators should be allocated based on the GDP of each state.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mviig99[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mMeh, trump's gonna whine democrats stole the election, media is constantly talk about him for next 4 years, he
  [0mwill win again in 2024 and nothing is going to change. Meanwhile climate change, economy and social media
  [0mnonsensence will keep getting worse, why ? because nobody wants to really fight for the little guy.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1mthrowawaysea[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mHow does HN feel about the call from AOC to compile lists of those who supported or worked for or aligned with
  [0mthe Trump administration ([34mmobile.twitter.com/trumpaccproject[0m).
  [0m
  [0mThis seems like the logical end of cancel culture and deplatforming, which is to assemble a list of people and
  [0morganizations to target or shame or blacklist. I find this to be a very disagreeable suggestion given that
  [0mpeople simply are exercising their constitutional and political rights and this furthers division, encourages
  [0mextremism, and has a chilling silencing effect on civil discourse.
  [0m
  [0mTo me this reeks of authoritarian Leftism, like the violence seen in past revolutions in China or Russia.
  [0mThere is also a great deal of irony as well, since AOC and her supporters are certainly not calling for a
  [0mblacklist of Marxists, despite Marxism being the cause of over 100M deaths in the 20th century.
  [2m▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁▁[0m
​
  [1m_hyn3[0m [2m9 months ago[0m
  [0mRegardless of media projections (and we know how accurate projections have been the last few years), it's
  [0msimply not true that Biden has [3mwon[0m.
  [0m
  [0mNo one has yet won. No one will have won the election until states certify their counts. It'd be nice if the
  [0mcounts, and recounts, were already completed. (Florida, of the "hanging chad" debacle, actually finished its
  [0mcount within hours in this election. Why did these less populous states move so quickly, and then slow down so
  [0mmuch, once it became apparent who was winning? Scroll down on this page:
  [0m[34mwww.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/11/03/us/elections/…[0m to see the timeline in the battleground states)
  [0m
  [0m[3mNo state[0m (out of all 50) has yet certified their count, and certainly no battleground states have certified
  [0mtheir counts. In fact, many of them have still not even finished counting the votes.
  [0m
  [0mTo assert otherwise, over a weekend when none of the recounts or court cases are resolved, is literally
  [0mspreading misinformation that many of the same media outlets are claiming to be stopping. Instead, they're
  [0mshaping the narrative and rushing to crown a victor so that it becomes a fait accompli.

                                                   [1m▶ 3 replies[0m                                                  ‌
                                                   [1;2m▼ 3 replies[0m                                                  ⁣
  ⁣
   [1mseanmcdirmid[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mThat has also been true of every election in the past that has been called by the media before the election⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mhas been formally certified. In a typical election, the media would call it, the loser would offer up a⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mconcession speech, and only then the winner would declare victory. Even Hillary did that back in 2016, it⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mprobably won’t happen like that in 2020 for the first time in recent history for reasons.⁣
  ⁣
   [1maabhay[0m [2m9 months ago[0m⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mBallots take weeks and in some cases months to count. We’re all familiar with projecting/crowning a winner⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0mwith the understanding that it could change. But the way we use won in almost all competitive contexts⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minvolve a high likelihood estimation. Including ‘winning’ a contract/deal, winning a race, etc. New⁣
  [0m[31m▎[0minformation can affect outcomes.⁣
  ⁣
    [1m_hyn3[0m [35mPP [0m[2m9 months ago[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mWe’re all familiar with projecting/crowning a winner with the understanding that it could change.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mBut the title is "Biden wins", not "Biden is projected to win".⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIt's obviously an incredibly close race, so there is a both a moral and legal onus for an even closer⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mexamination of the results. That has not happened.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mFor example, per the NYT, Arizona has 3% votes outstanding (estimated), but the margin of victory that has⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mbeen called for Biden is less than half that.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mThe polls have just not been accurate at all this cycle (or the last), so using them to project victory is⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mfraught with peril.⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m[2m ▎[3m[2mNew information can affect outcomes.[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0m⁣
   [0m[33m▎[0mIndeed. 😉⁣

